Ibrahim,
When describing the pictures in post#68 of the closed thread you wrote
"The long hilt...and about which there has been all this confusion...added recently in various degrees of splendour to such blades as German/ Ethiopian and given Omani scabbards etc...in Muttrah from 1970." and there was only one picture of a long hilt, so I thought you were referring to that. That was what confused me. And to be ultra clear, the hilt illustrated is on a flexible dancing sword blade?
Very best wishes
Richard

Sorry my answer was to in depth for you Ibrahim.

Strange You could not even see or recognise the type 2 Kattera carried by Tippi tu. :shrug:

Which I guess rather goes to show , rather like the shamshirs... leaders carried real weapons, not dancing swords!

Spiral

Salaams Richard ~ see http://www.baitalzubairmuseum.com/2006.htm which is the cover page for Omani Swords at the Bayt al Zubair museum Muscat. That is the hilt of a dancing sword in their collection. I have placed many on Forum on threads like Kattara for comment and this one ... To be classed as a dancing sword these blades must be very flexible ... stiff blades rehilted since 1970 just do not get selected by Omani men... because they are unable to buzz the blades in the air...Thus it is a non starter as an Omani dancing sword...and since they are an invention of the souk merchants from 1970 onwards they are classed as Tourist Swords... I really cannot think of another category in which to stick them...I have personally witnessed blade switches with extremely good blades...Solingen and so on but I cannot form a new sword category based on these ...no matter how excellent the blades are.

Reghards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

:shrug:

Thank you for the pictures... I just saw these ... Sketches are always interesting...These show a tribal dance by Africans with some sort of African swords...

Manga generally only danced with straight flexible swords...These arent Manga.( In Zanzibar only the Omani contingent were known as Manga so only they danced with their straight dancing swords)

The same goes for your skirmish at sea... African swordsmen~african swords.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Thank you for your insight.

Other curved sword dancing will surface in the near future.

The straight swords pictured are however long handled Saif in the hands of Zanzibar slavers, look close to their rifles too and their faces too, they are from Zanzibar, one of the many accounts written about in the 1870's.

I see you missed the above post Ibrahim..

Here is a picture of Tipu Tip carrying a type 2 curved Fighting Kattara.

& a type 4 straight fighting Kattara. ;)

There both weapons & badges of Office, an old scoundrel like Tipy wouldn't carry anything else in reality would he... :shrug:

Spiral

I doubt they are anything other than tribal Africans in the employ of some slaver group... Not Omani. Zanzibari perhaps...but not Omanis. Africans used different weaponry. I wrote extensively about Ingrams accounts of the Zanzibari population ...they are distinctly different... he mentions the dancing and which groups used what swords..In fact generally speaking this is the region I commenced my research ... Zanzibar... since it is pivotal to the question when did the Omani dancing sword adopt the Slavers sword hilt?

Curved sword dancing...I mentioned several times that for dancing if the Omani Dancing sword was for some reason not available then the exponents in the Funun sparring competition could use another sword... I have seen this done in the UAE... Where a shield was unavailable a sandal could suffice...I have seen it done with curved Kattara and sandal ...but only rarely.

All Omani Swords were Badge of Office...
 

Salaams Spiral,
No such thing as the typology you suggest...however, if you feel there is a case please prove it...

You may observe the Badge of Office designation on all Omani Swords..and Khanjars. It was a primary function in all cases.

Tipu Tip is shown with his heraldic dancing sword and the others are as I have described... Badge of Office in every case. These all had VIP status, even Tipu Tip ~ who enjoyed virtual Royal Status in his own right in much of Central Africa and especially around the Falls region which he dominated. He was half Swahili ~ half Omani ...see Kattara for comments on my description of him.

Did you know he was blind...? Perhaps you thought he could weild a sword? In his case the sword was very much his badge of Office. I imagine that his retainers carried all his different swords for him... I suggest he went about with a squad of them and depending on the venue he would select the sword... thats how Slave Lords did it...

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Type 2 is your typology. ;)

If you study this picture you will see it a type 2 kattara.

Of course but the symbols of power come from weapons not dancing. {Even though a thin sharp sword will make a mess of a naked man or one with just a light layer of cotton covering their skin of course. {Hence triads often using melon knives to mutilate people.}

As I stated above he carry's both curved & straight fighting swords in my opinion.

Yes, perhaps there is a God after all... Karma at least , but he was 33 or 34 when he went blind, that's why he is famous for lamenting the loss of a good canoe as he watched it go over the falls. {While Exhibiting no concern for the slave women & children on board. :o }

I expect a blind man who lived a life like his could be still a dangerous chap... not much good for fencing but could still cause some mayhem.

In truth neither of us can see inside the scabbard of his straight kattara, It might be a thick fighting sword or it might be a thin Fighting sword? Perhaps that should be Omani sword type number 7?

It just seems unlikely its a dancing sword...

Spiral

I feel you greatly underplay the importance of Oman Zanzibar and Oman proper in relation to these sword.

I think the more valid question here is at what point did the Omani make this long handled fighting sword in to the sword for which it is respected today, the dance type that it is now as I am more tha sure they all danced with older swords in older times.

Personally, with all that is at hand, circa 1900 would be more appropriate to see this change from the dances with fighting sword in to the specific buzz bending dance sword type.

Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. It should be noted however that it is a badge of Office and a sign of respect to the ruling dynasty ...and used in the march past...so not purely dancing ...but what it is not is for fighting.

Actually there is another sword...I will advise on this in a day or so... another dancer... there are two sorts.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard? :shrug:

Spiral

Oh that picture! I was the first to indicate that this sword was in fact curved... A curved Kattara ~at Kattara for comments I believe at #21 and a correction at #25 on his correct name .http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Yes this is curved... It's The Slavers badge of Office and I believe a punishment sword ... Sadly many slaves, mainly males, were axed on route from central Africa as the word was that they werent in demand... women and children were more highly prized... In fact this changed when the spices fields came into full flow on Zanzibar but ... that sword I reckon was a murderous tool...Single edged heavy backblade ~often a European blade.

Salaams All ~On the subject of #157 there is a picture of Tipu Tip at the end of a group... next to him is a gentleman called Wali Mohd bin Salim Minindani..with a Shamshiir ~ Wali means governer.. I think the dancing sword with Tipu Tip belongs to the Wali. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments at #253 where the same cross wired hilt is seen with Wali Mohd. Photographs of people with swords were often concocted for the picture sometimes with artists props.. It is interesting un-picking the details..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

You were also the only person in this thread to repeatedly refer to it as straight! :D

I agree with your definition of it. :) Ive been trying to point it out to you through out this thread after all..


I would give the same definition for this one he also carry's in this picture.... Only it will be a straight probably European blade. But a weapon clearly.

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

Spiral

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about. :)

Salaams Spiral; will you please stop adding insulting notations to your posts such as;

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

In reference to the straight blade held by your latest photograph subject on the right is Tippu Tip the slaver... he holds a straight dancing sword in this picture and in others a curved Kattara..

The Straight sword is not for fighting. Not only is the man as blind as a bat at this stage in his life but the blade is flexible for pageants and marchpast only...meetings with other dignitories ...Eid celebrations ..and weddings...but not fighting.

There is a strong chance that this belongs to Wali Mohd sitting next to him. These blades are not at all European but made in Omani workshops or by special commission by Zutoot wandering gypsies in Oman. The essential ingredient is the flexible, two edged, sharp blade with spatulate tip on a long Omani Hilt. They are Omani blades.

The use of European blades was confined to the Slavers curved Kattara not the dancing sword. (This in fact has another interpretation in a single 17th century quote from a Dutch visitor however, he was referring to alternative blades on the Old Omani Battle Sword as being occasionally European but that is still under review and anyway set outside the parameters of dancing sword blades.)

In all cases all of these swords were used as Badge of Office for important dignitories. All.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

Sorry if you feel insulted, that wasn't my intention.

It to me seems that state of play.

Anyway, Ill bow out for the time being until you or others provide fresh material . to breathe some fresh air into this thread.

Its rather like chewing old dry bread.

spiral

I think the pinky ring is the give away when deciding who is who...it is the constant.

Salaams Spiral, There it is again...

I have simply requested you dip your pen in civil ink... The subject is more complex than your incessant need to stamp your feet... This is not a contest..it is a team effort. Some of what you say is relevant but when you run out of content the tendency is to revert to disrespectful comment... off topic and not relevant to the discussion. If you wish to leave the thread that is entirely up to you... or you could consider your input and continue...The onus is on everyone to add fresh material and not to complain about the messenger... It is the thread we are trying to promote ... not ambush the author.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This notion about blade types within scabbards and who owned whose sword is not fact. No one knows what blades are hidden within these scabbards nor who owned them. At face value the owner of the sword is each holding their own and I doubt these are props in the context of this photo spoken about. Equally valid suggestions are noted with reference to the photos and the context of the harsh reality in the day but are dismissed without fact.

For the most part the thread is just repeated and repeated notions that no other straight sword in the form existed other than a sword that bends and was used for dance...but without fact...no other sword presented or notion suggested with validity is accepted, just the same old non acceptance...the thread will never move forward with this one eyed view.

With all that has been presented thus far, no one knows when the long handled sword became a pure dance only sword that it is known for today.

I have held and owned both types, more than enough of each. One of the dance swords I consider a master piece from antiquity, some of the fighting swords being important examples. No previous amount of rude, uncivil, inflaming or slanderous comments while change the fighting swords in to Souk swords.
The master piece dance sword has a blade type not even mentioned within these pages. I will not offer it for discussion until this silly notion that no fighting sword of the long handled type ever existed. Knowing both types, I can accept dance only sword of today was drawn from fighting types and at one time they existed side by side until the earlier type became unaccepted, molded in to the requirements of a more modern time.

To date, all that has been presented, apart from one of the fighting types I shared have appeare to be no more than modern examples, modern masterpieces, poor quality and bad taste souk swords that do not resemble anything like the dance swords or fighting sword from antiquity, along with photos and pictures drawn from the internet with a false claim of what may lay within the original sheaths and period context from which the artist made his impression.
For the most it appears no first hand personal examples are presented in context highlighting required aspects have been shown...perhaps just a couple of simple profile shots of rebound hilts???... Nothing in detail or personal context of the type meant to be a dance sword.

Ibrahiim, please bring your best complete dance sword from antiquity to the table for dissection. One we can discuss at length and draw from. Lets discuss one for a little while and look at subject matter rather than what MIGHT have been.

I'm sorry Spiral, but the when i look at post #157 the guy on the right (with the full gray beard) in the group photo is most definitely NOT the man in the singular photo situated above the group photo. Their facial features are completely different. The man on the left however matches the facial features of the singular photo perfectly, albeit he is a little older in the group picture.

Hello,

I had the same reaction as David when looking at the pictures of Tippu Tip. Lots of Google images confirm that this is the gentleman on the RIGHT side of the group photo in post #166.

The photo shown in post #160 does come up on Google as well. Considering the very different facial features, however, I suggest that the "younger" photo (#160) is actually a totally different person. The bulbous eyes with the very deep bags under the eyes, and the gaunt face and thin nose contrast with Tippu's fuller face and high cheekbones.

Attached are other pics of Tippu Tip

Emanuel

The younger photo (#160) is referred in a Wikipedia article from an post on the older Vikingsword forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002674.html, which appears to have the photo from http://bakadanka.blogspot.ca/2013/02...orbeelden.html .

The photo in question appears to have been taken by a Bojan Breceli in the 1860s. THis would put it about 30 years earlier than the group photo, taken in 1890.

Emanuel

Let's please leave moderation duties to the moderators.

And two more drawings of a younger Tippu Tip.

A frontal drawing by the Belgian M. Louis Amelot and a profile by the Swede M. Gleerup, both involved in expeditions in East Africa in the mid-late 19th century.
Amazing what can be found on Google Books...

Perhaps this confirms that the gaunt gentleman in #160 is not Tippu Tip :shrug:

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .