Greetings everyone,

I noticed that some of the forumites felt a little strange with the usage of the chinese word Yin.My purpose was to make the distinction about the spiritual side of the keris,by using the word Yin, which refers to the spirit world. We, us humans, we are characterised as Yang creatures(because we have flesh and bones), while the spirits that don't have actual existance, are refered as Yin creatures. So, a keris "resident" is a Yin creature.I used chinese terms,because they are more familiar to the western world.Also I don't know javanese :shrug:

regards

I have always considered myself a bit of a wonderer as well, though i assume that what you meant to say is that you are a wanderer. :D Anyway, glad you wandered by.
Bram, i think i am pretty much on the same page as you and i certainly never meant to imply that magnetism has any traditional place in the understanding of keris spirits. There are many elements of my personal practice which have nothing to do with traditional Indonesian practices. Sorry if i confused you.
Pakana, i am not so sure that i would regard a chunk of iron ore meteorite "yin" simply because it falls from the sky. Place of origin is not always a very good factor in this determination. Man (yang) is, afterall, born of woman (yin). Infact, i would be much more inclined to consider meteorite as "yang". It is extremely dense stuff and hits the earth with great force and velocity. Very yang elements in my book. ;) :D
I would also be very hesitant to say that the making of a keris is a "far more complicated" procedure than the making of a katana. If this had been posted on the general forum you would probably be hear quite a bit more about that by now. :D

BWHAhaha...yep thats what I meant lol

David,

I didn't said that a meteorite is Yin because of it's origin from the sky.I just said that a keris blade(with it's "resident") is consider to be yin(using again the chinese term) because of it's spirit inside. ;)

Sorry...that seemed to be the implication i was getting with the concept of the combination of earth iron and meteorite being a marriage of Earth and Sky.
You wrote: The usage of metal was very important, because of the yin element of it. Together with the usage of meteor material,was literaly the "marriage" of sky(meteor) and the earth(iron).
Metal working itself seems pretty yang to me though i do suppose as an inanimate object any metal could be considered yin. :confused: :shrug:

In the National Musium in Jakarta is a lingga taken from Candi Sukuh. A big lingga, nearly two meters long, and five feet around.

On this lingga is an image of a keris and alongside it an inscription, which says in part:-

"--- the sign of masculinity is the essence of the world---"

In the Nawanatya (14th century) we find:-

"---the criss, a token of manfulness, has its place at the front---"

In old Jawa the keris was given as an award to a man for displaying bravery in battle.

The keris is a yin object?

Interesting thought.


May I most humbly suggest that it could be useful to refrain from mixing Chinese philosophy with Javanese and European philosophy.

All three schools require extended periods of study in order to gain an adequate understanding of the concepts involved; it is already difficult enough for most of us to try to understand Javanese philosophies, working from a European base. Let us not make things even more difficult by introducing Chinese philosophies.

I think i must agree. Recouncilling these different schools of can be quite impossible. All one needs to do is look at the differences in the Chinese and European concepts of the 5 elements to see that aspects of these systems are not very compatable. :)

Dear all,

I think we cannot discount the possibility of Chinese influence with regards to the natural balace of Yin & Yang. We are aware that the Chinese have sailed around the world long before Christopher Columbus discovered America.

In my mind a meteorite is yang, I can’t see how it could be considered yin. If you think of the analogy of fertilization then the Earth would represent the ovum/egg whilst the meteorite with its fiery tale would represent the sperm. A meteorite is yang (hot, dry, hard, masculine) whilst the Earth is Yin (watery, earthy, feminine) I think I have heard Indonesians refer to mother Earth and Father sky.

Spirit however might be considered Yin, so we have a Yin spirit in a Yang material, opposites attract?

Dear forumites,

Although the definition of Yin & Yang between the Chinese & Javanese may slightly differ because of other cultural difference in perception, in principle they are the same (what ever the Javanese referred them). Yes Pusaka, I agree with you.

This is just another illustration on the Chinese influence on Indonesian culture. The first king of Islamic kingdom of Demak, Raden Patah (1478-1518), is the son of the last King Brawijaya (Majapahit) and Princess of Champa -- China. The Chinese name of Raden Patah is Jin Bun.

One of the 13 kings/queens and 2 rulers of Majapahit, is a real Chinese. He was Nyoo Lay Wa (1478-1486), after Majapahit was attacked and conquered by Jin Bun of Demak. The king of Majapahit at that time was Kertabhumi, the father of Jin Bun... That's only a few influence of Chinese to Javanese in the past. (See, "The Fall of Javanese-Hindu Kingdom and the Rise of Islamic States in Nusantara" by Prof Dr Slamet Muljana, 1968)

Ganjawulung

There can be no doubt that Chinese culture has influenced the cultures of maritime South East Asia, including much of present day Indonesia and including Jawa. However, there have been other major cultural influences on Javanese culture also, apart from that core part of Javanese culture which is indigenous.

If one is traditional Chinese, and has an excellent understanding of Chinese philosophy, it may be possible for one to transpose the yin-yang of Chinese philosophy onto Javanese culture in an attempt to come to some understanding of Javanese philosophy. However, this would be a Chinese understanding of Javanese philosophy.

If one is of European origin, and has an excellent understanding of one or more of the schools of European philosophy, it may be possible to transpose some of those European concepts onto Javanese culture, in an attempt to understand the philosophies guiding that Javanese culture, but again, this would be a European understanding of Javanese philosophy.

The element of Javanese indigenous philosophy which seems to come closest to the Chinese idea of yin-yang is the well known Javanese principle of dualism, however, this principle does not appear to be an assimilation of Chinese philosophy and its adaptation to the Javanese cultural framework, rather it appears to be an idea woven into the original fabric of Javanese thought. If we transpose concepts foriegn to Javanese culture onto that culture in our attempts to understand elements and ideas that form a part of the culture, then what we are doing is perhaps of assistance to us as individuals to allow us to come to terms with a Javanese idea within a framework that we can understand.

In the present example, if we are Chinese and we liken Javanese dualism to the Chinese concept of yin-yang, then as Chinese we have reconstructed a complex Javanese idea in a form that allows us a limited understanding of that Javanese principle. However, the key word here is "limited". If we are to have an understanding of the Javanese principle, as it is understood in a traditional Javanese context, then we need to make the effort to understand Javanese culture and society, and the philosophic principles which are the weft of the fabric of that culture, and of that society. Only by doing this can we come to a position where we may see and try to understand elements within a culture which are of that culture.

Hello pak Ganja,

Please excuse a small correction:

The kingdom(s) of Champa had little to do with China and were never under rule of any ethnic Han AFAIK: as wet rice growers, their territory focused on the narrow plains along the central mountain range of today's Vietnam. They rose to regional power and wealth by their ports being a major stepping stone for the maritime trade and converted to Hindu culture like contemporary kingdoms in continental Southeast Asia (cp. Angkor Wat) as well as throughout the SEA archipelago (e.g. Majapahit). Thus, it's not surprising that they kept close ties with Khmer, Javanese, Sumatran, Malayan royal families...

Regards,
Kai

Because a culture recognizes the existence of duality dose not mean it is Chinese yin/yang influence. Every culture on Earth have known and understood the existence of duality since ancient times. The western equivilint of Yin and yang is Sol and Luna (literally Sun and moon). Likewise the five elements have been understood by all ancient civilizations, it dose not mean they also got it from the Chinese.

Chinese five elements: water,wood,fire,metal,earth

Western five elements: earth,fire,water,air,quintessence

The concept of the five elements is also understood by the Indonesians if I remember correctly (Bumi,air,angina,api,besi.

Indian culture also have this knowledge. Thing is when we hear the concept of duality or the five elements mentioned people think it must be Chinese philosophy, completely incorrect.

Pusaka, I have the feeling that your most recent post is directed at what I have written.

If I am incorrect in this, then please ignore my further comment, however, if I am correct, are you quite certain that you have understood what I have written?

It is indeed true that many different cultures have come to understand the universe and their environments with similarly structured systems of thought, but as Alan states, they all have very indigenous understandings through these stuctures and one system cannot be automatically substitited for another. For instance, there is, as Pusaka states, a system of 5 elements that exists both in Western European occult practices and in Chinese philosophies. But even if you examine the 3 elements that are common to these systems, Earth, Fire and Water, i beieve you will find vastly different meanings and correspondences to them. Yes, the 5 elements may have been understood by many different cultures, but these understandings do not necessarily amount to the same "truth".

No not meant to be a response to what you wrote but more generally if during the manufacture of a keris the Indonesians consider the marriage of the dual natures of iron from earth and meteorite from sky it should not be considered Chinese influence. I’m just saying that many cultures have the ability to understand such concepts without consulting or borrowing from the Chinese, such things are universal and universally understood by all cultures.

Interesting point about Putri Cempa. Cheng ho's armada visited Majapahit and Tuban though... there was a lot of Chinese influence during the times when China ruled the waves. Also it appears that to the Jawanese all lighter skined Asian foreigners were thought of as Campa / China. For a long time we thought that the Mongols of Kubilai Khan with their Korean horses (now still in Jawa called Jaran Kore), the Campans, and the several tribes of China were one and the same people. Maybe a little like in rural Jawa to this day every white person is Londo, Dutch.

Salams all,
Bram

Definition of Yin and Yang

Yīn (陰 or 阴 "shady place, north slope, south bank (river); cloudy, overcast"; Japanese: in or on) is the dark element: it is passive, dark, feminine, downward-seeking, and corresponds to the night.

Yáng (陽 or 阳 "sunny place, south slope, north bank (river), sunshine"; Japanese: yō) is the bright element: it is active, light, masculine, upward-seeking and corresponds to the daytime.

Yin is often symbolized by water and earth, while yang is symbolized by fire and wind.

Yin (the receptive, feminine, dark, passive force) and yang (the creative, masculine, bright, active force) are descriptions of complementary opposites rather than absolutes. Any yin/yang dichotomy can be viewed from another perspective. All forces in nature can be seen as having yin and yang states, and the two are in movement rather than held in absolute stasis.


Metal (Classification Elements)

“Metal, or gold, is one of the five elements of Chinese alchemy. The archetypal metals are silver and gold. Metal is associated with the west and autumn, the planet Venus and the colour white. It is believed to govern the lungs. It is associated with organization and stability.

Other qualities associated with metal are unyieldingness, persistence, strength and determination. The metal person is forceful and set in their ways as metal is very strong, but they are self-reliant and enjoy the good things in life. The element metal plays an important role in Chinese astrology and feng shui, the Chinese form of geomancy.”

Greetings,

I would like to highlight some points on the given comments. It’s cool to exchange views…

Pusaka – The analogy did not confuse me at all. If I place myself looking at the views from your angle, I’m able to relate per se.

Bram & Pak Alan – I have the same opinion with both of you. It could be that our mind set (school of thoughts) and “olah rasa” inner/spiritual feeling tells us differently. That’s the reason why our view on Ying and Yang totally doesn’t relate with the Javanese keris culture.

Penangsang – You are right, in principle; they are almost similar but different context. In Chinese philosophy, metal element is applicable to human being generically used in Geomancy; Chinese Astrology and Feng Shui. In Javanese keris philosophy, it is specifically termed to the spirit of the keris such as “Kiai Setan Kober” etc.

This is my perception. Do feel free to comment.

Sincerely,
Hana

Thanks for your response, Pusaka.

I was afraid that you may have misunderstood the direction and intent of my comments, as I used the word "element" to refer to an element of a philosophy, and then you used the word "element" to refer to physical, rather than abstract concepts.

I now understand that you were making a broad ranging comment on universal cultural values.

Thank you

Dear Penangsang, it is rather sad to know such thing exist but that is how it is. As a Muslim, dua kalimah syahadah is essential in our life. Putting things where they belong is Justice or in Malay we call it Adil (Meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Zalim is when you do not put things to where they belongs. Hence, as a Muslim, Awalluddin Makrifatullah, is very important. The foremost in religion, is knowing Allah swt. Everything in this world is "makhluk". Respecting it in due respect is important. Why? Because we are all His creation. Respecting must come from understanding and knowing what you are respecting...another word, knowledge. When people starts to talk about mystical thing, please remember, Awalludin Makrifatullah. Now, as a Muslim, the knowledge came to us through our dearest and most loved Prophet, Rasulullah saaw. Hence, putting him at a place where he should not be, is Zalim and that itself, requires us as a Muslim to correct those who don't know, to know and gain knowledge, be it Muslim or non Muslim. Not doing this, is considered zalim. Rasulullah must never be misplaced. Even when discussing keris and mysticism, (especially that of Malay keris), Islam can never be separated from it.

Nevertheless, I've come a long way threading this path and a few hiccups will not stop me going. Believe it or not, I've met people who claimed that Malaikat bernafsu, hence, right now, it seems that nothing can surprise me anymore....especially when that experience where Rasulullah is not up to par to gain the knowledge of kashaf!!!

There is this story though, told to me by a pandai keris (in Malaysia). Regarding a fight between two warriors, one of that of Malay (maybe Patani) and another of Javanese. Both fight their very best, and they realise that both of them, can't harm each other with their keris due to both of them are Kebal. Hence, this Malay hulubalang set a standard where he told his nemesis, that if they were to continue fighting, it should be that both of them, should fight naked. The Javanese warrior doesn't want to do that, simply because, his kebal is due to him wearing an azimat, while the kebal of the Malay hulubalang is that of amalan. I know this might be wrongly interpreted by some forumers, especially that of Javenese origin. This story is not about who is stronger than who. My point is, the best of keris (to me), is that of amalan, not of "dampingan".... Hence, for Malays, keris must never be separated from amalan and religion and foremost for Malay's Keris is knowing that it is a weapon, not an artistic expression and being a weapon, it's job is to kill when requested to. Not doing that, is considered Zalim (tidak meletakkan sesuatu di tempatnya). Hence, Malay keris that is considered lucky are those that protects it's owner's life when in danger. That luck comes from a certain part of the Malay Keris which is very much attached to Islam. Many a name given to parts of the Malay keris is with knowledge of understanding the need of a weapon that does not stray away from Islam :)
Cracks for Malay Keris on certain location symbolises the amalan that was fused into the keris until the metal decided to show in term of "isyarat" through cracks.

Nevertheless, dampingan is not wrong to me (depending on certain conditions). Simply because, when we were born, we were born not alone (for those who knows) and Allah swt does not do things without good reasons.

Allah Hafiz
sepokal toh putih.

I Sense Possible Trouble Ahead
 

I would hate to see old arguments had on another forum be reborn or even referred to here .

Gentlemen; please tread carefully lest this wonderful thread be permanently closed .

Thanks :)

:confused: :confused: :confused: :shrug:

C'mon Sepokal, you should know the terms of this forum by now. I do recognize a couple of these terms and i might be able to infer the meanings of a couple of others through your usage, but this is very clearly an English forum and if we are truly all going to understand each other it is imperative that we all communicate in a common language. I have no problem with other lamguages (in fact i encourage them) as long as an accurate translation is also provided. You host is, afterall, this English speaking forum. To do anything else would show the greatest disrespect.
As for what i clearly understand in your last post i will say this...Clearly there is more than just the Islamic interpretation of keris to be considered here. It was a Hindu weapon long before the coming of Islam to the region and before that its traditions may have been even more indigenous and animistic, traditions whose current continued through keris culture to this very day. I genuinely respect anyone"s way of relating to the keris in the spiritual tradition of their choice so your imperative to "correct" those who do not do this as you or Islam sees fit worries me greatly. Likewise you assertion that discussions of the keris and mysticism cannot be seperated from Islam is troublesome for me. This has been, IMO, a long and fruitful thread which i would like to see continue, but make no mistake, if the conversation degrades into a battle of religions and dogma i will shut it down in a heartbeat.
I am sorry if i may have misunderstood the underlying intention of your post, but if i have it only serves to demonstrate the ultimate importance of complete translations to assure everyone has a full understanding of the concepts being discussed.
Likewise, as Rick has already stated, old arguments from other forums need to stay there and not be brought into this forum.

Hmmm... your opinion seems absolute. I believe, it's the hand that guides the keris to do its intended task. Not an artistic expression? I beg to differ... if you choose to venture into it's simple-looking, sub-lime looks... you'll find the artistic expression, imho. ;)

I agree about the lucky part, but it does apply to all keris in general, though.

A question: Why do certain Malays still regards that the Majapahit keris, have a strong supernatural element?

Majapahit is a Javanese-Hindu kingdom, it's empus are Hindus too. Many symbolism in the keris are Hindu inspired. Most likely the 'beings' within are too... (speculating).

Keris in the Malayan Peninsular have many influences from different belief system... the malay keris are likewise...

I find it rather disturbing... emphasizing that keris is Islamic.
What I do believe... names can be changed... ideals modified to follow suit...
For those whom are of different belief system, one would treat the keris within their own cultural/religious context...

Hmmm... in my opinion, this is make belief. When a smith is unable to forge properly a blade, this might be the excuse... imo only... hmmm. :confused:
Alan, you've made keris blades, care to elaborate, please?

Thanks for the invite Alam Shah, but I'm going to stay out of this one.

Being a man who loves peace, and having a personal life that requires me to co-exist in harmony with Muslims, Taoists, Buddhists, Russian Orthodox, and devout atheists, I have learnt that debate about anything that somebody else firmly believes is a total waste of time.

All religions are belief systems.

I will walk 20 miles to avoid any sort of debate that touches on religion.

My response to all of Sepokal's post would simply be that he is entitled to believe whatever he wishes to believe. There is no profit for any of us in arguing for a different point of view.

Dear David,

Please don't misinterpret me. First and foremost, the idea or concept that keris came from Hinduism can be contested. Many researchers of keris have stated that although, by default, it is recognised that keris originated or is inspired from Hinduism, but they were unable to prove otherwise. Hence, they presume through Candi Sukor Relief that Keris originated from Hinduism. If one were to look at the History of Patani and you might realised that Islam have came long before 1400. In fact, there are documents that states that Islam have arrived to this region as early as the third Khalif, which is Khalifah Osman. Keris is part of Patani's culture back then. In fact, it is used by the famous Wali Songo in their mission to spread Islam to this part of Asia. There are reasons to belief the forefathers of most of the Wali Songo, in which most of them are related to, was Sheikh Jamadil Al Kubra. He was very much active, during his time, in Patani (early 1300). Hence, to state for a fact that Keris originated from Hinduism just because of a relief discovered at Candi Sukor (dated 1400 plus) is still not strong enough.

As most of the forumers are more comfortable talking about keris and Hinduism, I don't see any reason why forumers should be uncomfortable to keris and Islam. Nevertheless, I understand that most of the forumers are discussing keris based on Javanese Keris hence, it is understandable when most reference book would be discussing Javanese keris as compared to Malay Keris. It is also understandable that, history wise, it will be based on these books too.

Regarding old argument, it's bygone, long time ago. Please don't close this thread as I have no intention to bring any old argument into this forum. Don't worry, if there are any who would like to challenge or create havoc in this forum, I'm sure the relevant people knows how to handle this. On my part, my writing is sincerely a must for my friends and those who knows.

Currently, I'm not into forum anymore. It just happen that my friend Penangsang requested from this forum my views and I did my best to explain. If anyone find my writings rather offensive, my apologies and you are welcome to delete it. :)

If you notice, I've not written in this forum, for like...forever, not until recently. There's is just too much to write about Malay Keris and it's mysticism. Unfortunately, (or rather fortunately), I'm more towards Malay Keris and it's hidden secrets. Malay keris is very much related to Islam. Hence, due to that fact I guess, probably it is not appropriate for me to discuss it here, where most are more familiar with Javanese keris. Again, my apologies.

Hmmm... I guess I'll take a walk in the other direction... ;)
To each their own... :shrug:

Dear Alam Shah,

Again I reiterate, it is not the artistic form that come first into making a Malay keris. First and foremost, it is a weapon. Artistic impression and artistitic interpretation is based on those who views it and as they say, Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. What you call artistic, is not to some. While you consider the extreme curves on a keris to be beautiful, some might not view it so.

Regarding Keris Majapahit. Have you ever seen a real keris Majapahit? Read again what Bambang says about keris Majapahit / Keris Sajen.

"Keris sajen dibuat khusus untuk keperluan sesaji tetapi ada yang menyebutnya sebagai keris Majapahit padahal keris Majapahit bentuknya indah dan mutunya tinggi, tidak sederhana seperti keris Sajen."

in English, "Keris Sajen is made especially for "sesaji" but some calls it Keris Majapahit while that is not so as keris Majapahit is much more beautiful and of higher quality as compared to keris Sesaji".

My question is, then, what really is keris Majapahit? How does it looks like? :shrug:

The last Majapahit kingdom was located in what we called Kelantan right now. There is nothing disturbing about Islam and Keris. Why is such thoughts, exist I wonder? Disturbing to Islam or that to Keris?
:confused:

Alam Shah, pamor that exist in most Javanese keris are based on made belief too. I guess, it will always be part and parcel of keris lovers to go through this "made belief" stories. :)

Regards,
sepokal

A path that should be taken by everyone. There is no harm done here I hope, because what I just did was to write accordingly to what was known to me and what was enquired.

Regards,
sepokal

Greetings sepokal...
Hmmm... I re-read through my post again and I was wondering... :confused: did I ever mentioned or imply that artistic form comes first? Please re-read my post... what I've said was... if you look you'll find an artistic expression... crude but it's there. Keris in the Malay world is first and foremost a weapon, period.

True, beauty is in the eye of the beholder... so don't assume what I deem as beautiful... If other do not find it artistic, so be it... no harm done. Each is entitled to their own opinion. :)

I suggest you don't inscribe what was mentioned in Ensiklopedi Keris into stone. Take it with a large dose of salt. ;)

Maybe you should ask Javanese collectors... Pak Ganjawulung and Hidayat comes to mind... :D

Hmmm... interesting... sorry my history is a bit 'rusty'. Perhaps someone else would like to comment... :cool:


Hmmm... kindly re-read my post and try to understand it, please. :p

Dear Kerislovers,

To say that keris comes from Hindu / Animistic culture per se is not quite accurate. If my mind serves correctly, Hinduism came to the Indian continent from the Aryans diasphora, and the present day true Aryans are Farsi people (people of Iran). So, there's a possibility that keris culture was brought to the Malay Archipelago by Iskandar Zulkarnaen (King Darius I) descendants after they had embraced Islam. In another word, It could also be Persian / Islamic Culture imbued in the early Islamic Malay kingdom of Champa in the 12th C. Thus the spiritual aspects are also partly Islamic. Just my 0.02 cents.

Warmest Salam & regards,

Penangsang

Sepokal, i hope you will go back, re-read what i and others have said, and try to find a better understanding in it.
Nowhere do i even suggest that it is inappropriate to discuss Malay keris (due to it's connection to Islam) nor am i uncomfortable with the discussion of keris and Islam either. In fact i encourage such discussion as it is obvious that in much of Indonesian and on the peninsula the keris is considered an Islamic weapon. I personally do not believe that the keris originates in Islam however. I did not say that i believe it originates in Hinduism either, though this is probably in my mind. I am even willing to entertain the notion that the keris pre-dates the influences of both these great religions. What i am not willing to entertain is debate on which is the "correct" religious or spiritual path from which to approach the keris from. Why this idea should translate in your mind into the idea that we do not or should not discuss Islam and the keris here remains a mystery to me. You are most certainly welcome to your own beliefs and to state them clearly in this forum. I certainly find nothing offensive about your beliefs or Islam in general (nor other belief systems for that matter). But what you wrote gave me the impression that you are not so tolerant of the beliefs of others that may be different form your own. Please forgive me is i have the wrong impression. Dogmatic thought that implies that your spiritual beliefs are somehow more "correct" than others will not be welcomed here. As Alan suggests, these are debates which cannot be won by any side and only leave the debaters angry with one another. They are wars not worth fighting and they wil not be fought on this forum. Period!
I do suggest that if you want to communicate your ideas here better that you start by providing English translation to the terms and phrases that i listed at the beginning of my last post. It will go a long way in breaking down any barriers of misunderstanding that may have formed between us. :)
As for Mojopahit keris, there have been numerous published examples of these keris and i am sure someone can provide you with so pictures soon. :)

Hmmm... fuzzy history... ;) are there any archaeological findings, weapons of such nature or even one that resembles the keris... their weapons making methods during that period suggests otherwise...

If this is the case, why is there no legacy of such a weapon found around that region... hmmm... :confused:

Just to set the record straight... I did not mention that keris is of Hindu origin. What I mentioned was Majapahit kerises are made during the Hindu period... Please read carefully... :p
Keris exist before that time as we've known already... ;)

I personally don’t believe that the keris has its roots as an Islamic weapon. If someone suggested to me that Stonehenge was built by Christians I would likewise disagree.
I think there is more evidence that points towards an vedic origin than an Islamic origin. It is true that the Vedic culture was introduced to India by the Aryans so maybe the keris has an Aryan origin?

Greetings,

I agree that it’s great to exchange ideas but it looks like Tsunami has hit this thread…

Sepokal – I believe in “universal cultural keris values”. Appreciate if you could elaborate philosophy of the Malay keris for better understanding complete with referencing link (if any). Others may not be able to relate them in comparison to the Javanese keris. Some might be too busy to take the effort to read up on cultural values of the keris world.

Rick – I guess there’s no reason to panic. It’s only robust verbal discussion and not using keris or spiritual battle field. I’m sure that we will be able to forgive and forget with due respect of the coming New Year (Hari Raya Puasa).

David – I would like to highlight that sometimes it is difficult to translate Malay or Islamic terms to the English Language. The meaning and idea may get distorted. Viewers might get the wrong perception. This applies to other languages for one word can take you more than 10 sentences to elaborate including examples.

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder. How did you derive with the above theory? Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread? Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

Sincerely,
Hana

P.S – The beauty of universal languages will enable you to open gates of the respective culture and values with your eyes wide open….Amazing indeed!! :D

Thanks for your concern dear Hana ; I've been doing this too many years to panic. :D

I simply watch and warn.... and keep a bucket of water handy . ;) :D

With respect to the use of other languages in here; I feel very strongly that translations must be given;even if it is merely the gist of the idea otherwise people may feel ... uncomfortable not knowing what is being said . :(

People like the Moderators. :)

Warmest wishes,

Rick

Hana, thank you for your thoughtful post. I do, of course, agree with you that it isn't always easy to translate words and concepts from one cultural reality to another. But if it takes 10 word or 10 paragraphs to successfully translate an idea it must be done, otherwise why bother writing it to begin with. What is written in this forum must be useful to all, not just a select few who understand the terms being thrown about. While ideas my get distorted from time to time it is better than half the audience or more having absolutely no understanding of the terms being used. I am afraid that if we are going to come to any understanding we must make the effort to translate no matter how difficult it may seem. :)

Pusaka – I like your creative thinking for always giving us time to reflect, pause and ponder.

Well that is most refreshing to know :D

How did you derive with the above theory?

Firstly I know that the keris was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam so if it was in Indonesia before the coming of Islam then it would make one think that its origins cant be Islamic.

Secondly if we were to study weapons in the homeland of Islam will we see anything that could at a later date have mutated into a keris? Is there a tradition of using pamor in those weapons. Is there a tradition of using meteorite in those weapons.

Thirdly art, what dose Islamic art look like? Dose it permit the depiction of nature in art. I recall reading that one of the first observations of a keris in Indonesia records a straight blade with a bone handle carved in the form of a human. The human form handle is also displayed in the earliest keris. Is this something that we would expect to see in Islamic art, the literal depiction of the human form?
Nagas, elephants, winged horses, dragons, birds are these things we would expect to see in Islamic art or Indian art? If we look at Islamic art do we see any of those things depicted literally?

Fourthly, make a study of ancient Vedic art and weapons and you might find images that make you ponder.

Fifthly the rituals that surround the keris, making weapons with supposed spirits trapped inside, is that even permitted in the Islamic religion, the use of spirits?

Is there any correlation with Penangsang postings in the patrem thread?

No I have not read that thread yet, but will do so.

Is it possible for you to provide us with the factual referencing links?

No its no more possible for me to prove that the keris is of Indian/Aryan origin any more than it is possible for someone to prove that the keris is an Islamic weapon. In the end it comes to personal beliefs.