I feel you greatly underplay the importance of Oman Zanzibar and Oman proper in relation to these sword.

I think the more valid question here is at what point did the Omani make this long handled fighting sword in to the sword for which it is respected today, the dance type that it is now as I am more tha sure they all danced with older swords in older times.

Personally, with all that is at hand, circa 1900 would be more appropriate to see this change from the dances with fighting sword in to the specific buzz bending dance sword type.

Salaams, He carries a dancer in that picture... Flexible round tipped dancer... with razor edges no doubt. It should be noted however that it is a badge of Office and a sign of respect to the ruling dynasty ...and used in the march past...so not purely dancing ...but what it is not is for fighting.

Actually there is another sword...I will advise on this in a day or so... another dancer... there are two sorts.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Bonjour Ibrahim!

Can you not see it is a curved blade sword?

If you cant see its external shape , how can you see its cross section inside the scabbard? :shrug:

Spiral

Oh that picture! I was the first to indicate that this sword was in fact curved... A curved Kattara ~at Kattara for comments I believe at #21 and a correction at #25 on his correct name .http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments

Yes this is curved... It's The Slavers badge of Office and I believe a punishment sword ... Sadly many slaves, mainly males, were axed on route from central Africa as the word was that they werent in demand... women and children were more highly prized... In fact this changed when the spices fields came into full flow on Zanzibar but ... that sword I reckon was a murderous tool...Single edged heavy backblade ~often a European blade.

Salaams All ~On the subject of #157 there is a picture of Tipu Tip at the end of a group... next to him is a gentleman called Wali Mohd bin Salim Minindani..with a Shamshiir ~ Wali means governer.. I think the dancing sword with Tipu Tip belongs to the Wali. See http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ttara+comments at #253 where the same cross wired hilt is seen with Wali Mohd. Photographs of people with swords were often concocted for the picture sometimes with artists props.. It is interesting un-picking the details..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

You were also the only person in this thread to repeatedly refer to it as straight! :D

I agree with your definition of it. :) Ive been trying to point it out to you through out this thread after all..


I would give the same definition for this one he also carry's in this picture.... Only it will be a straight probably European blade. But a weapon clearly.

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

Spiral

Spiral, could you please clarify something for me. In the group photo of the 4 men you caption Tippu Tip as being on the right in that photo, but the "gentleman" you ID as Tippu Tip in the single person image is clearly the person on the LEFT in the group photo, no? Just trying to avoid confusion and understand which swords we are talking about. :)

Salaams Spiral; will you please stop adding insulting notations to your posts such as;

Or does that logic still escape you?

I suspect it will do, O well, you cant help everyone..

In reference to the straight blade held by your latest photograph subject on the right is Tippu Tip the slaver... he holds a straight dancing sword in this picture and in others a curved Kattara..

The Straight sword is not for fighting. Not only is the man as blind as a bat at this stage in his life but the blade is flexible for pageants and marchpast only...meetings with other dignitories ...Eid celebrations ..and weddings...but not fighting.

There is a strong chance that this belongs to Wali Mohd sitting next to him. These blades are not at all European but made in Omani workshops or by special commission by Zutoot wandering gypsies in Oman. The essential ingredient is the flexible, two edged, sharp blade with spatulate tip on a long Omani Hilt. They are Omani blades.

The use of European blades was confined to the Slavers curved Kattara not the dancing sword. (This in fact has another interpretation in a single 17th century quote from a Dutch visitor however, he was referring to alternative blades on the Old Omani Battle Sword as being occasionally European but that is still under review and anyway set outside the parameters of dancing sword blades.)

In all cases all of these swords were used as Badge of Office for important dignitories. All.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Certainly, David, IMHO Tipu is the fellow on the right in the group photo, I would guess taken a decade or so later than the singular photo.

There is a resemblance to the chap on left of photo, perhaps he is a relative of Tipu or just carries very similar racial stereotypic features being half Omani half Swaheli.

I think the age of the chap on the left nearer matches the age of the Tipu portrait, as well, increases there similarities.

spiral

Sorry if you feel insulted, that wasn't my intention.

It to me seems that state of play.

Anyway, Ill bow out for the time being until you or others provide fresh material . to breathe some fresh air into this thread.

Its rather like chewing old dry bread.

spiral

I think the pinky ring is the give away when deciding who is who...it is the constant.

Salaams Spiral, There it is again...

I have simply requested you dip your pen in civil ink... The subject is more complex than your incessant need to stamp your feet... This is not a contest..it is a team effort. Some of what you say is relevant but when you run out of content the tendency is to revert to disrespectful comment... off topic and not relevant to the discussion. If you wish to leave the thread that is entirely up to you... or you could consider your input and continue...The onus is on everyone to add fresh material and not to complain about the messenger... It is the thread we are trying to promote ... not ambush the author.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This notion about blade types within scabbards and who owned whose sword is not fact. No one knows what blades are hidden within these scabbards nor who owned them. At face value the owner of the sword is each holding their own and I doubt these are props in the context of this photo spoken about. Equally valid suggestions are noted with reference to the photos and the context of the harsh reality in the day but are dismissed without fact.

For the most part the thread is just repeated and repeated notions that no other straight sword in the form existed other than a sword that bends and was used for dance...but without fact...no other sword presented or notion suggested with validity is accepted, just the same old non acceptance...the thread will never move forward with this one eyed view.

With all that has been presented thus far, no one knows when the long handled sword became a pure dance only sword that it is known for today.

I have held and owned both types, more than enough of each. One of the dance swords I consider a master piece from antiquity, some of the fighting swords being important examples. No previous amount of rude, uncivil, inflaming or slanderous comments while change the fighting swords in to Souk swords.
The master piece dance sword has a blade type not even mentioned within these pages. I will not offer it for discussion until this silly notion that no fighting sword of the long handled type ever existed. Knowing both types, I can accept dance only sword of today was drawn from fighting types and at one time they existed side by side until the earlier type became unaccepted, molded in to the requirements of a more modern time.

To date, all that has been presented, apart from one of the fighting types I shared have appeare to be no more than modern examples, modern masterpieces, poor quality and bad taste souk swords that do not resemble anything like the dance swords or fighting sword from antiquity, along with photos and pictures drawn from the internet with a false claim of what may lay within the original sheaths and period context from which the artist made his impression.
For the most it appears no first hand personal examples are presented in context highlighting required aspects have been shown...perhaps just a couple of simple profile shots of rebound hilts???... Nothing in detail or personal context of the type meant to be a dance sword.

Ibrahiim, please bring your best complete dance sword from antiquity to the table for dissection. One we can discuss at length and draw from. Lets discuss one for a little while and look at subject matter rather than what MIGHT have been.

I'm sorry Spiral, but the when i look at post #157 the guy on the right (with the full gray beard) in the group photo is most definitely NOT the man in the singular photo situated above the group photo. Their facial features are completely different. The man on the left however matches the facial features of the singular photo perfectly, albeit he is a little older in the group picture.

Hello,

I had the same reaction as David when looking at the pictures of Tippu Tip. Lots of Google images confirm that this is the gentleman on the RIGHT side of the group photo in post #166.

The photo shown in post #160 does come up on Google as well. Considering the very different facial features, however, I suggest that the "younger" photo (#160) is actually a totally different person. The bulbous eyes with the very deep bags under the eyes, and the gaunt face and thin nose contrast with Tippu's fuller face and high cheekbones.

Attached are other pics of Tippu Tip

Emanuel

The younger photo (#160) is referred in a Wikipedia article from an post on the older Vikingsword forum : http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002674.html, which appears to have the photo from http://bakadanka.blogspot.ca/2013/02...orbeelden.html .

The photo in question appears to have been taken by a Bojan Breceli in the 1860s. THis would put it about 30 years earlier than the group photo, taken in 1890.

Emanuel

Let's please leave moderation duties to the moderators.

And two more drawings of a younger Tippu Tip.

A frontal drawing by the Belgian M. Louis Amelot and a profile by the Swede M. Gleerup, both involved in expeditions in East Africa in the mid-late 19th century.
Amazing what can be found on Google Books...

Perhaps this confirms that the gaunt gentleman in #160 is not Tippu Tip :shrug:

David & Emmanuel,

I had faith that the photos were as listed, I can see why you doubt it though.

I didn't take the photos & wasn't there.

I believe both could be Tippo, A leader of men at 30 compared to a man riddled with disease & blindness 30 years later can look very different, chubby cheeks can hide high cheekbones etc. Age & Illness can do terrible things to a man. Ive seen cancer make once powerfull men look like little sparrows.

But in truth, how could I be truly certain? There old photos of the net.

Hope you get to the bottom of it! It would be nice to know.

All the best.

Spiral

Really interesting forensics here guys!! It would seem like it would be of little importance which image is of this man, but since we are trying to ascertain his identity and which type sword he is holding, that goes to relevance. I suppose we have to retain the factor that as mentioned in other discussion, there remains the possibility of photographers props.

This I seem to recall was sometimes the case in the latter 19th century with American Indians photographed with sometimes incongruent arms such as swords. I believe Civil War photos from studios often used the usual Colt revolver and some Bowie knives etc. held in notable position .

A dancing sword variant. Flambouyant blade.
 

Salaams all...

I almost forgot to include the following dancing sword style which is essentially straight and certainly as flexible ...and you will be delighted to hear even more deadly looking for the imagined combat role for which it was never used. This is simply a dancing sword variant with a more vicious blade. It is said that the blade was bathed in blood etc etc ... which is more connected to the hype than reality ... but it is worth looking at since it does belong to the same family of Omani dancing swords....another heraldic pageantry sword. The terminology in the Richardson and Dorr Herritage document from which I borrowed the picture below is "Flambouyant".. I owned a few and picture one at #68.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Yes, please keep in mind that i am not really questioning your knowledge as much as the internet sources. When i search the net for photos of this fellow i definitely found more images that do not appear to be the same man, so i do believe that somebody got their resources confused somewhere along the lines. I think the question remains for now as to who the real Tippo is in these photos. As you may know, i do not particularly consider Wikipedia to be a consistently accurate source. ;) :shrug: :)

Salaams Jim... True indeed and the same goes over here... I can show loads of prop studio pictures with swords 'n daggers added to clients ... It was part of the business... In fact I was just diving on some detail about Zanzibar and noted that the Goan immigrants chose photography as one of their skills ...along with jewellery making and musical instrument makers!

On the subject of Tippu Tip or Tippu Tib and avoiding the Disneyesque terms others seem to be slapping on him...the pictures show him singly at a younger age with a curved Omani Kattara and in the other picture much later on the right of a line of 4 sitting next to Wali Mohd...a local governor... from which he may well have borrowed the straight dancing sword...or switched it.

I show Wali Mohd singly at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...attara+comments at #253 with the sword that Tippu Tib is holding in the 4 man picture..

The chap on the left of the 4 man line..I have in another picture below and he could be the brother or uncle of the ruler...for what its worth. The reference is from the Getty Images website and the character is third person from the right and perhaps, as I say, a relative of the Ruler.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Sancar, Please have a look at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ilitary+museum at post #1 and #14. Your swords are related to the museum pictures shown at #1 and I believe also a relative of the Wallace collection sword at #14...There are also some backyard rehilts of Ethiopian swords done in Sanaa that have a roughly copied hilt similar to those..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Like this I think.....

No problem David. And I agree about Wikipedia,

As I said I cant vouch for the photo , but it looks the same man to me, just ravaged by time & disease. {There but for the grace of God.... :D }



Some more pics. of Tippi as the English named him, {Spelling can vary it was said in a childlike nuance & more phonetic than anything, in my impression.} I think the shown picture help link the to earlier pics perhaps? taken sometime between the other two under discusian.


I see Ibrahin agrees with me, as well...

It Would be fascinating to be 100% certain though.

Spiral

http://www.zanzinet.org/zanzibar/ima...900_scaled.jpg

.http://imagecache5d.art.com/Crop/cro...maxh=859&q=100

Note the two other indicators of national recognition of the dynastic rule invented at the time of Said bin Sultan..ruled 1804 til 1856 who moved the capital on Oman to Zanzibar ~and worn here by Tippu Tib..

The royal turban and the royal khanjar. Zanzibar thence became an important hub and the fact based on the slave trade controlled from there is too inviting to ignore as to the linkage from Omani Kattara to the Omani Dancing sword and the transfer of hilts to the Iconic dancing style...for pageants and dancing...only.

I notice Ibrahim you make no mention of the Yemini flexible blade sword.

Could this perhaps be the true origin of the Omani flexible sword?

How do you perceive the connection?

Spiral

Salaams All, From time a revue or summary of structures allows clarity, focus, and direction and directs readers at the supporting posts and so that their research may be enhanced. I place the following for that purpose in respect of The Omani Dancing Sword.

Introduction.
The ensemble of Omani Swords comprises in order of oldest first as under;
1. The Omani Battle Sword AKA Sayf Al Yamaani.
2. The Omani Kattara.
3. The Omani Sayf (Sayf); The dancing sword.

*4. The Omani Shamshiir. Placed 4th but the date of its inauguration may place it as older that some of the swords above I place it here with an asterisk. . for later closer analysis date wise.

In order to address the complex questions which inevitably arise out of the contentious issue involving Omani swords and their peculiar provenance I place a summary of investigation so far on the details and influences that bring us to this point in proceedings and to remind readers that prior to these considerations Forum had very scant material to hand and thus at present Library is well served by the now vast amount of material to hand.
For the complete story the following need to be read since there is the inevitable interlinking through history of forms 1, 2 and 3 above and to which I add TVVs fine introduction to the problem in his Kattara for Comments. Thus the threads to study are:

1. Kattara for comments.
2. The Old Omani Battle Sword.
3. The Omani Dancing Sword.
4. The Omani Kattara.
5. The Omani Shamshiir.

The issue.
The main bones of contention are understandable…The fact is that the Omani Dancing sword looks warlike … as warlike now as it did to the few Europeans who reported upon seeing it in the early 19th C. The fact that out there in the world abroad there are many Omani looking swords of dance with stiff blades which must therefore have been for fighting or fighting and dancing…or were they?

Thus to assist members in this fog I propose the following broad based summary so that the issue may be clearer..This is not the final proof nor does it comprise the silver bullet solution but offers comprehensive discussion and details which though it does not point to a check mate does point the finger at probable cause… Maybe we will never produce the absolute answer… I would be amazed if we did since that is often the nature of Ethnographic research as is the time honoured technique of creating a possible theory based on what we are seeing countered by other well thought out and researched alternative proposals occasionally presented on a pretty warmed up cauldron of well meaning sparks and the occasional flame on the anvil of Forum discussion…i.e. If you think you know another cause lets hear it !

I list a number of topics that I have ventured into concerning Omani swords which on their own assume notes of interest but when grouped together offer a compendium of potential evidence, though, without absolute proof but which are the essence of the detail amassed in this regard.

The Omani Dancing Sword . AKA The Omani Sayf (Saif)
“Between 1744 and perhaps about 1810 this sword was designed as a heraldic dynasty and salutation sword carried by all Palace Guards or Askeris in Oman. The hilt is identical to the single edged Omani Kattara but the blade is flexible and spatulate tipped for its main role in The Traditions… It has continued in that role with the same Dynasty since its design until today. No battle has been identified in which it was used to fight with”. Because of some enterprising souk merchants who from 1970 (when Oman emerged from the virtual dark ages) swords with stiff blades have appeared as rehilts in various souks but mainly at Mutrah where it is estimated that in over 40 years thousands have been sold to tourists and which have somewhat corrupted collections all over the world..

To support this statement I offer the following documented information viewable at the threads above for inspection summarized as follows viz;


The 10 Point Summary. The Omani Dancing Sword.

1. This straight flexible sword whose hilt was designed from the curved Kattara was given the privilege of being accompanied by the Terrs Shield usually carried into battle with the Old Omani Battle Sword...It was sharp on both edges and round tipped in honour of the forefathers who went into battle with its forerunner; The Omani Battle Sword (the two have been compared favourably at thread.) Its purpose was for pageantry and Dynastic Salutation only. Not for fighting.

2. A newspaper report by a sword maker in Ras Al Khaimer delved into the question of fighting with this sword and in a comprehensive column totally refuted the point… Neither was there any reaction by local sword or history experts concerning the report; for good reason perhaps? In no museum is the sword refered to as a Battle Sword...and in the Al Ain collection of Arab "weapons" it does not appear.

3. The vast and informative but almost unrecognised in ethnographic circles, Funun, a genre of pageant, dance and battle re-enactment pantomime forming the unwritten, handed down traditions vital to the study of Omani history and swords...and seen as a complete works at thread...This entire genre is completely foreign to normal researchers abroad who too often miss its importance. The dancing sword is The Funun instrument of Dynastic salutation… The two are inexorably linked.

4. In respect of the Zanzibar situation The slave trade, and the link to The Slavers Sword...much has been investigated including the important notes from H. Ingrams the secretary to the Ruler at Zanzibar and the significance of the Manga (Omani) dancers and their dancing swords opposed to the African and native Zanzibari equipment. In parallel to that it has been suggested that the Kattara originated in central Africa perhaps influenced by the Mendingo but anyway the long Omani Hilt appears to have been technically transferred to the new dancing sword … and may thus have been introduced via Zanzibar.

5. The manufacturing link of the Zutoot and other centres such as Nizwa, Sanau, Muscat...It is recorded that the wandering Gypsy of Oman who were a mixed Gypsy traveling people from probably the North West Frontier of India now incorporated into Omani tribes but entirely wandering in nature prior to 1970…who made dancing swords on Commission…Nowhere in the transcripts is there actual evidence of European trade blades linked to the dancing sword however the application of fullers may be a European aspect overlooked. I have no evidence of dancing swords carrying European markings... unlike the trade blades that made up the curved Omani Kattara situation which were virtually all European. If the Omani leadership wanted a dual purpose weapon / dancer why would they not perhaps simply have evolved the curved Kattara into that role ?

6. The strong influence of Said bin Sultan to whom the finger points as the motivator behind the dancing sword as Heraldic and Pageant. It was this ruler … during his reign who saw the introduction of several other iconic items worn in honour of the dynasty …viz The Royal Khanjar and the Royal Turban. The Royal Khanjar or the royal Hilt more correctly is also echoed in the same hilt being allocated to the Old Omani Battle Sword perhaps this is the third example during his reign of this kind of recognition… Could it be that the fourth is the adoption of the Omani Sayf; The Omani Dancing Sword with its very flexible blade for Pageants and Heraldic dynastic salutation.

7. Great care has been taken to identify the rehilting situation since 1970 till today prevalent in Mutrah Souk and responsible for several thousand swords drifting out to world collectors. It can be seen at thread where these originated and that because they have stiff blades they conveniently sidestepped local buyers because they cannot be buzzed in the air … a precondition for dancing swords… and because they appear from 1970 could hardly have been used here in 19th C battles…in Oman. These are Ethiopian blades and clearly identified on thread…

8. The mimic fight.. This has thrown more people than most things with this sword… The mimic fight is explained at thread and isn’t a fight but a one point scoring contest where the single winning point is won by touching the thumb of the opponents shield hand…end of contest. This is made possible by the flexible sword having a flat spatulate tip…Mimic fighting was not a bad way for guards to keep fit requiring dexterity, speed, balance and agility…It is part of the Funun.

9. The demise of blades owing to gunpowder. It is interesting that gunpowder eroded swords and spears but didn’t affect the dancing sword…why? The thread continues to examine its other employment not as a fighting sword but in its guard role as a Dynasty marker … supporter of the ruling Sultan and anchored in the traditions in the special genre reserved to honour the swordsmen of history. That is why it never vanished as did the spear and largely the Old Omani Battle sword though it survived being honoured with a royal hilt.

10. The Omani dancing sword is a weak bladed very flexible flat sword… It is no match for a hefty battle sword… It bends easily through 90 degrees and would be quickly overcome by a proper thick stiffer blade…The thread refers to Guards that carried it and in one sketch their spears and abu futtila … the real killers can be seen… but it is in what we do not see that is also important,… The Fort armouries with dozens of Old Omani Battle Swords for issue in time of strife… The guards duties which included pageantry and salutations meant they needed to have available their parade swords at all times… The Omani Dancing Sword filled that bill did it not?

Conclusion;
The finger of suspicion as to who brought on the design of sword known as The Omani Dancing Sword may be leveled at Said Bin Sultan who ruled 1804 to 1856 and thread identifies how he or his reign brought about other dynastic items. This pushes back the potential date of inauguration to after 1804…and it is further possible that the diffusion from palace guards to general population may also be later…date unspecified as yet. This is unchartered territory but under scrutiny…The National Museum which specializes in the Rule of Said bin Sultan may have some light to throw…and I shall endeavor to press them on the subject.
It could be, however, that the First ruler in this Dynasty who was an Immam was initially its instigator in about 1744...which also makes sense since it is a Dynastic Sword.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Not sure what you mean by flexible Yemeni sword? Do you mean like the sword at #185... That sword is the Ethiopian (of often German trade blade pedigree) which only got as far as Yemen Sanaa before having its hilt removed (The hilts were invariably Rhino Horn and went on to be re used on Jambia) and replaced with a rudimentary iron hilt in Sanaa souk backyard workshops ... Some were sold there prior to the trouble... but others were exported to Oman where they were again rehilted onto long Omani Hilts or sold as is... I have two. They are not flexible ~ Rehilted in Sanaa. Point 7 of #189 refers.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams all ~Readers may recall that the famous historian on Zanzibar; H. Ingrams wrote about Manga(Omani) and non Manga(African Zanzibari tribals) and the difference in the way they danced using quite different swords m,any of which were fighting blades.... I found the sketch which illustrates that in terms of the latter style. It could be said that the African style is more frenzied and without the rhythmic structure of the Omani technique and the swords are anything with a blade curved or any shape and long guns and whatever else comes to hand...

Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword.
Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".


Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)...

Thus I show the Mwarcha Zanzibari dance below to compare swords, dress, style and tribal differences.etc. with the more regimented straight line formal salutation and dance of the Omani style with dancing swords and shields. Dress is quite formal including Khanjar.



Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Obviously.

Of course not, as you know I don't agree with your hypothesis.

I am aware of the modern fake Oman swords sold by some Omani websites & the fakes you have posted pictures of. I though you possessed more than 2 though?

Anyway my question was serious before you distracted me with your Mantra. ;)

I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Spiral

P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .

Greeting Ibrahim...

As interesting as Ingrams quote is, you forgot to post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement.

spiral

by spiral I meant the antique Yemini swords with flexible blades. As refered to by Eggerton quoted from of the Persian work by Jahanggir entitled Tuzuk I Jahanggir published around c.1600.{ later translated into English by Bill Thakston. 1999 }

Salaams Spiral, You speak of a book written in 1600... can you show me some of the extracts as I don't have that reference... I need to see what they mean at the time by "Yemen"( quite often Yemen meant or included the coastal Horn Of Africa)...and to look at sketches or descriptions of the weapons..(since I have no idea what is in the book).

They are likely to be unrelated...as 1600 was very early related to The Omani Dancing variant and indeed even the Omani Kattara. I would be interested to know what is recorded in the version you quote though I couldn't find it in my copy from http://archive.org/stream/tuzukijaha...auoft_djvu.txt though I did note that there were many discrepancies particularly in the many translations of this work... nevertheless I would like to see the context.

In another note you place~
P.S. Glad you've added the Omani shamshir to your list, as I suggested .
Why would I not?... In fact the thread on the subject is started by me. See the Omani Shamshiir.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Namaste Ibrahim!

If you re.read the above quote , I think it is clear my reference came from Eggerton... I to do not have a copy of W.Thakstons translation of the work.{nor the original :D } Clearly Eggerton does.

On page 260 Hindu arms & Ritual... He states... "Jahingar in Tuzuk refers to a sword which "Flexed like a real Yemini or southern blade."

He references this from page.363 in Thackstons translation. {not the earlier translation work by which as you note is inaccurate by Beveridge..}

But if you allow me.....

linky

A bargain for you at less than $250.



mmm so despite not having read the work, & the fact the old Yemini world probably encompassed Oman, & the mention pre. dates your {changing.}concept of when flexible blades appeared in Oman . You still say there likely to be unrelated.... I personally suspect not!



Why Indeed... Your repley on the 16th of this month when I suggested you add it to your list was.

Which of course doesn't prevent it being a very lethal weapon. ;) Still at least you added it in the end.




Ok so know Ive provided the information you requested from me.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to answer my question above & provide the text you mentioned that you still haven't shown.?




Please now do so. {that is to prevent confusion... post the quote that identifies your supposition & statement. from Ingrams work, re. "only dancing with straight blades."} So that we can help move this thread through to the next step together, in the search for the truth about these swords.

Spiral

Salaams all~ The question is posted requiring proof of H Ingrams the secretary to the Royal House in Zanzibar and an expert on the region just after the turn of the Century and probably in about 1910 for a book published a few years later in which he observes a dance in Zanzibar... quite specific ...in that only Omani dancers were involved..... In fact it is the Razha which as all Omani people recognise as being from the Genre of weapon dances from the Funun..which only uses straight Omani Swords of the flexible variety since its inception in about the early 1800s. That part of the Genre is called the Razha. Thus his stattement stands as correct...viz;

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests; leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

Furthur references may be checked by working back from my post at #189.

In Reference to a note Jahingar in Tuzuk ostensibly quoted in Eggerton.
The statement that the old Yemeni world encompassed Oman is understandably niaive ...at the time of the book around 1600 which in itself, though, fascinating, no matter which copy you may have in front of you (but I have to say 250 us dollars seems a lot since it is a free download otherwise) it has rather the reputation of being vague in places and innacurate in others~ not least because of the nature of the work as a sort of Royal Travelogue...and the trophies gained thereon... and since there are many translations/hiccups along the way. Whilst it may well be essential reading for Indian arms and Armour and history it remains a very blurred, minor reference and not one penciled in my margin in this regard.

However taking that copy as gospel for what its worth the statement about Yemeni or southern blades is somewhat misleading...because it could have referred to a host of countries production including Sri Lanka. It may well have meant some Horn of Africa blade as that was called Yemen on ancient maps in that timeframe 1600... or even European blades. There is absolutely no factual intensity which underpins flexible blades coming from Oman at that time..None whatsoever!

I feel certain that the National Museum would have noticed..:p

Naturally we are all alert at the potential of Hadramauti blades..and not least because the old Omani Battle Sword is also known as the Sayf Yamaani...quite possibly a Hadramaut blade or from the ancient town of Izki (in Oman) which has a quarter called Yemen; I personally suspect Hadramaut for the Old Omani Battle Sword*, though, there is no connection apparent for the Dancing sword from a manufacturing viewpoint. See Zutoot.

*I remind readers that the Old Omani Battle Sword was very rigid. (See The Old Omani Battle Sword.)

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So despite further attempted muddying of the waters in your last post, in which you apparently underline your belief not Ingrams published statements..

So the truth is Ingram pointed out no such thing.

Never mind "Ingram is careful to point out that Omanis or Manga as they were known... only danced with the straight Omani dancing sword"

Where does that leave us?

spiral

Us? Where does it leave us?... I think you have that misplaced... It leaves you still looking for a hook on which to hang your supposition... Try examining the post note by note of the 10 part summary then envisage the whole work and you will see you are tilting at windmills. Tilt away ! Dont be put off however... Note that for almost half of the giant thread Kattara for comments I was of a similar opinion to you ...and then the penny dropped.

If there was any chance of what you are saying... and that is not at all clear because you are operating in a vacuum ... do you not think I would have been able to show a result in your favour?...Don't waste any more time on this ... It never happened. No such weapon ever appeared. It's a red herring !!

See #18 at Kattara for comments ...viz;
Quote" Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes~

" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests. leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".

However what I find amazing is...This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga(those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar)."Unquote.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting tirade but doesn't alter the fact you falsified evidence with false statements in this thread.

Sadly that does cast doubt on everything else you've said.

This is what you posted....

And quite simply you made it up. Its not true.

Spiral

Salaams Forum...All....It has come to my notice that certain facts delivered here by me have come into question and whilst naturally in the course of polite interchange and scholastic manouvring I quite accept that certain points may come as a surprise or that obscure references not always available to everyone (though all the references in this regard are) may seem incredulous but references they are and in the case of W.H. Ingrams they are immaculately recorded in his diaries... and in a book he had published called Zanzibar and Its Peoples, in 1931. ( I believe it was first done in 1927 according to another source...at the base of this list viz;

On the British period in Zanzibar and East Africa, and the
precceding period of Bü Safiıdı rule, see for example L.W.
Hollingsworth, Zanzibar under the Foreign Office 1890-1913, London,
1953, N.R.Bennet, A History of the Arab State ofZanzibar, London,1978,
M.L.Lofchie,Zanzibar. Background to Revolution, Princeton Univ. Press, 1965. See also theaccounts given by R.N.Lyne,Zanzibar inContemporary Times
, Hurst&Blackett, London,1905,

and W.H.Ingrams, Zanzibar. Its History and its Peoples, London, 1927

I go into some detail about this author and his vast experience as an administrator from 1919 and actually later in Hadramaut where he displayed brilliant service ~in "Kattara for comments" ~though he is also important since his involvement in the music and dance of the region was indeed a speciality and further he was a historian and much involved in the Zanzibar Museum structuring from the outset. It is in his coverage of Music Songs and Dances in Chapter 39 page 399 if my memory serves me well that he outlines the details current to the discussion others have brought derogatory questions to this table in what Ingrams himself would perhaps have described as slightly inflamatory. Humbug even? :) Personally I wouldn't like to comment since rule 1 is quite sufficiently clear, though, the comment on fabrication is hardly one of complicit teamwork and honourable discussion for which I thought as participants we had signed up to....however....

Some disagreement appears to have developed (though I cannot see why) through H. Ingrams statement on those pages of his 1931 masterwork; reported previously on Forum as "Here is an important passage from W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor and unusually advisor to the Sultan of Zanzibar variously from about 1919 (published in 1931) in which he describes"~

Quote" The only performance or dance of the Arabs is the sword dance, RAZHA, accompanied by an orchestra of drums while the performers armed with swords and Jambiyya and small shields of rhinoceros hide indulge in mimic contests leaping about and weilding their swords in a truly marvellous way".Unquote.

This was not a Zanzibari dance. W. H. Ingrams goes on to explain that this was only carried out by the Manga (those born in Muscat) not those Mwarcha (those born in Zanzibar).

I vouch for the fact that this was not a Zanzibari dance because it is part of the Funun practiced by Omanis and in that sword spectacle The Razha the dancing sword is used with the Terrs Shield; The Sword blade being flat spatulate tipped, round ended, sharp on both edges, flexible and mounted with a long Omani Hilt. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note; W H Ingrams was a well respected historian known in his day for his brilliant rendition on "Zanzibar and its Peoples" which I outline as;

Quote" This reprint of this celebrated classic text on Zanzibar makes available again the remarkably comprehensive account of the Island of Cloves, written by W. H. Ingrams and first published in 1931. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is essentially an historical ethnography of Zanzibar. The author describes local legends, and their important social function in recording and constituting the oral history of the island. Ingrams' extensive observations and personal experiences - both on the main island of Unguja and Pemba and the smaller islands which make up Zanzibar - provide a detailed and lively account of society at the time and make engaging reading. Zanzibar, Its History and Its People is a comprehensive work, perhaps daunting on account of its size, but a joy to read and a rich resource." Said El-Gheithy, The Sayyida Salme Foundation."Unquote.