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The minor deities crawl, slither or appear as the human face on the hand-guard as the humano/crocodile mythical creature already on thread at #56 . I note that further regurgitations occur from the miniature looking Makara especially on the handguard though the cross guard and Vagra finials appear to depict Nagas. The Nagas and or secondary mini Makara appear on the hand- guard and cross-guard finials and swooping over the guard onto the pseudo quillons appearing as finials on the Vagra tips. That is where the tail appears dressing usually the triangular rain-guard arrangement, sometimes, even flowing over onto and down the blade throat itself. Finally on the scabbard at the drag chape there is occasionally another monster emitting another deity...or perhaps fire. My plan is to show Makara with the tails of Peacocks since that is how the Buddhist religion shows their form. This is illustrated in Kastane Hilts etc in the following posts on this thread; 25, 52, 56, 71(Gunbutt), 78(door support), 115(Vagra),101,139, 147,150, 153. The Peacock tail is the form created onto the Makara by the religious structure Buddhism. Fact. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makara_...u_mythology%29 I will now illustrate peacock tails on the artistic "impressions" of this ancient mythical creature. Pictures below indicate the importance of understanding the essential ingredient... The Tail...in Peacock form of the Makara. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Salaams All... Once more ... The Kastane hilt. Confirming the peacock tail thus the hilt of Makara form. Showing minor Deities ...having been spewed forth onto the guards and pseudo quillons even displayed as also emitting minor deities themselves since perhaps the artist is conveying mini Makara as well. Illustrating the Vagra Buddhist link and finally the monster at the tip of the scabbard mirroring the general concept of supporting deities in this sword based on the foundation mythical creature the Makara forming the hilt.
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Dear Ibrahiim,
I can appreciate your position on the subject I can but in the icons present above, none from antiquity show the form of the pommel. I do concur the line drawing does but it doesn't look to be very old and the reference of its source is not forthcoming for better digestion. Gavin |
Dear Ibrahiim,
I see no feathers or peacock plumage of any kind in the images you provide... Equally, in relation to a scabbard tip shown, I have had Kastane scabbards carved in the style of an elephant trunk... Gavin |
Kastane; Not a Fighting Weapon. Icon only.
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Salaams All. Moving forward... It is interesting that the iconic weapon Kastane (now the National Sword of Sri Lanka) appears to have little or no blade markings... marks of high quality blades often seen on Portuguese swords are absent on these weapons. Why?
It struck me that...No Kastane has ever turned up with a properly marked/ stamped blade ... particularly odd since the Portuguese were good at that. So what are these things about? I suggest: 1. Court Swords... Popham Armour, Jewel encrusted gold and silver inlaid... 2. Presentration Swords.. Japanese Delegation and in their Museum ... 3. VIP swords for the Sri Lankan landed gentry...see below. 4. Religious Icons... The Buddhist Vagra and Makara. Defender of the faith ...of Buddhism that is. Thus never a weapon. A religious Icon. 5. Defenders of the owners via myth and superstition because of its Deities.... It is Talismanic per se. 6. Added in retrospect ...Badges of rank of the wearer. The blade is not marked nor stamped for excellence ...the blade is not for fighting... the enriched ruby encrusted gilded hilt would never be wielded in a fight ... a kind of a reverse engineering twist; in the same way that a crucifix or perhaps the cross and orb artifact wouldn't be used as a weapon to club someone to death!!..Neither would this be used as a dagger/ sword in a fight.. since this would dishonour the religion. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
Salaams All ~Makara. Some notes.
Only Varuna, the lord of the sky and the sea, the spiritual ruler of the world has power over the Makara. The Makara is Varuna’s vehicle in Hindu mythology. As most Karavas in southern Sri Lanka belong to the Karava Varunakulasuriya (Warunakulasuriya) clan, the symbolism is extremely interesting. In mythology Varuna is the chief of the Adithyas. Remnants of the name Adithya from the medieval period can still be found in Karava family names and the Nagadipa inscription of King Parakramabahu I mentions Chandraditya (Chandra + Adithya, Moon & Sun - quoted in Sakala Sinhala Chakrawarthi page 25). As Adithya is a synonym for Suriya (ie. the Sun). the Karava clan Varunakulasuriya too signifies Varuna-Adithya. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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[/QUOTE]4. Religious Icons... The Buddhist Vagra and Makara. Defender of the faith ...of Buddhism that is. Thus never a weapon. A religious Icon. 5. Defenders of the owners via myth and superstition because of its Deities.... It is Talismanic per se.[/QUOTE] Weapons with religious symbols on blades or fittings and of talismanic value are nothing of rarity. Actually the ties between religion and warfare are quite obvious and fundamental. |
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Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons ~If you consider The Makara in several stages of development you will note that its morphs according to which phase it is in...See below that it sometimes portrays the elephant form... so it is not surprising that you may have seen an elephant deployed in the scabbard... It is the way the artesan portrayed it..in stage 5 of its potential development...simple enough? In similar ways the Deity is often portrayed with fish scales and a peacock tail... Traditionally, a Makara is considered to be an aquatic mythical creature. Makara has been depicted typically as half animal half fish. Some traditional accounts identify it with a crocodile, specifically Gharial because of its long extended snout. It is depicted with the forequarters of an elephant and the hindquarters as a fish tail. Crocodile was also a form which was used in the earlier days which was shown with a human body. In many temples, the depiction is in the form of half fish or seal with head of an elephant. It is also shown with head and jaws resembling a crocodile, an elephant trunk with scales of fish and a peacock tail. Other accounts identify it with Gangetic Dolphin having striking resemblances with the latter, now found mainly in Vikramshila Gangetic Dolphin Sanctuary. Others portray it as a fish body with an elephant's head. The tradition identifies the makara with water, the source of all existence and fertility. In the medieval era of South India, Makara was shown as a fifth stage of development, symbolized in the form of an elephant head and body with an elaborately foliated fish tail. Most myths maintain this symbolism of this stage in the evolution of life. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Salaams Gustav, Thank you for your input which is very interesting ... .. Your point on religious links to battle swords is understood. My point is I have no records nor have any surfaced as yet of blades with stamps or markings, which, for a blade said to have possibly been made in a joint Portuguese Sri Lankan workshop is odd. At any rate my comment is purely speculative in this regard as you will note it is only a suggestion..but your post is excellent and inspires a look into the Japanese presentation item. I note one web author who says Quote''The blades were initially of mediocre quality until blades made in Europe began to be used. Many of the blades bear East India Company trademark.'' Unquote. Does that mean that before the British arrived blades were inferior... I find this very interesting if true? Here is the weapon you speak of.. I cant see a blade mark but assume an European blade here...see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasekura_Tsunenaga Described as; Indonesian kris and Ceylonese dagger (acquired in the Philippines), presented by Hasekura to Date Masamune upon his return; Sendai City Museum Pictures of swords said to have been acquired in the Philippines and dated map of his travels. 1620 being key; Given the weapons at that time in the Philippines. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
Kastane Worn as Badges of Rank !!
Salaams All Note to Library Anecdotal note:
Kastana The national sword of Ceylon. Typically a short curved single-edged watered blade, double-edged at the point. The hilt comprises a knuckle-guard and down-turned quillons, each terminating in a dragon's head with large in-set eyes. The dragon's head is usually decorated throughout with gold or silver panels and the pommel with tongue is formed from a piece of wood or red coral. The dragon's mane trails down the grip and is decorated with silver and gilt repousse floral designs. The entire hilt is often made of silver or gold and even inlaid with jewels. The blade close to the hilt is decorated with floral or thatched designs. The scabbard is made from wood and is covered with embossed and chased silver worked with flowers with leafy borders and richly ornamental. The swords were intended to serve as badges of rank. Rev. James Cordiner in 1807 wrote that everyone in office wears a sword with a silver hilt and scabbard. These swords were made in the Royal workshops known as the "Rankadu Pattala" or "golden sword workshop" and the quality of the piece always depended on the rank of the wearer. I isolate those 2 points viz; 1. These swords were made in the Royal workshops known as the "Rankadu Pattala" or "golden sword workshop" 2. The quality of the piece always depended on the rank of the wearer. Although the Rev. James Cordiner actually describes the Monster as a Tiger(!!) he does go on to say ~ Quote."The design and workmanship exhibited in these decorations are distinguishing badges of the particular rank of the wearer.”Unquote. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
The old post seem to be dragging on once again but with the same old (what I thought was now a long dead) argument. I think I would not even try to convince Mr. Balooshi as he is fixed on his idea that the Kasthana pommel is Makara despite all the evidence presented and Mr. Balooshi seems totally unable to even examine and see objectively the points presented. Balooshi It would be good if you would kindly go through the thread again. most of these points you still throw around have been answered before.
Being from Sri Lanka- the Kasthana is part of my living heritage. I understand it standing within the culture which originated it and still survive. I see the Sinhala Makara and Lion and other mythical beasts in that context - there is no mistake the pommel is of a Lion head. It is also backed by the surviving sword lore and is even mentioned in ancient craft manuals like the “Vyjayantha thanthra” The Kasthana is known as the Lion hilted sword. There is not even a shard of doubt about the identity of the beast on the pommel. As I said earlier there are Makara and Serapendiya figures depicted on other parts of the Kasthana hilt but the pommel is always a Lion head. If you need to drag along this further may be you should look at depictions of Makara and Lion in Sinhala motifs instead of regional as there are some differences. Regional references don’t always tally up with Sinhala traditional art and motifs. bringing in a mixed hodge-podge of all sorts of creatures that don’t have a place in a Sinhala context is only adding to the confusion. As I mentioned before there are two main classes of Kasthana swords- the earlier dated Kasthana with good blades and Silver, metal, Horn or wooden hilts were true fighting weapons. I had listed historic texts that document use of Kasthana swords in battle dating back to mid 16th Century. (Balooshi-please go back and check that). The Golden hilts with excessive jewels with the “dog-faced” Lion hilts and inferior blades were mostly just presentation swords used by Sinhala Mudelliers and Arachchis under Dutch and British administrations. The religious Iconography used is as auspicious symbols to bring luck and protection to the warrior- Theravada Buddhism does not use weapons as religious Icons. No new material seem to be forthcoming and only old ideas are being re-shuffled. It is funny that everyone else is able to identify Lions from Makara heads with the exception of Mr. Balooshi. |
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Salaams Prasanna Weerakkody, Sir, I have been through the thread... I wrote most of it. You may think its funny...or that no new material is being offered. You could consider reflecting that the thread is dragging on... or that everyone else thinks the subject hilt depicts a lion...(strange that ... as there is only one other person in that debate)...If you aren't interested or perhaps you are bored what can I do about that? I certainly will not give up. I like the subject! Its interesting. I learn a lot as we proceed. All that you have done is to pontificate "that because you say its a lion it must be a lion". It's not. Its a Makara. I have shown that in several recent posts ..see above. I have even listed reasons for ease of understanding and supported my reasoning with pictures. New detail has emerged .. Anecdotal evidence from 1807 when the weapon was used as a military rank indicator.. and more logical evidence; historic, cultural, and traditional as well as religious. That is what this Forum is about. If you do not wish to take part then it is entirely up to you...This is a Forum... you know what happens on Forums... ? :) Being from Sri Lanka does not give you ownership of the Kastane...moreover it gives you the opportunity to debate this very little known sword on the hot anvil of this Forum and not Sir, to attempt to slur the efforts of others. It is extremely bad form to suggest that I may have not the respect because I am not Sri Lankan and to suggest that by speaking to me in the 3rd person that everyone else is able to identify the lion except me is entirely without merit and very insulting. You are mistaken about the Makara Hilt. Its not a Lion. I just proved it. See my last few posts. Your point about ancient or older blades is noted ... but you cant just talk about them... It has to be looked at, examined and debated. It wouldn't surprise me if they were better blades.. but on this show... You have to practically dig the old body up with the original sword in his hand and a diagram in triplicate of the design signed by the maker! before it can be accepted beyond doubt. No one else addresses me as Balooshi here... Kindly use my first name; Ibrahiim. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
Please do not be so bold and self assured that you have "proved" it is a Makara. Nothing has been proved unless you have a time machine...one that I would like to hire if you do. I am still awaiting for numerous direct questions to be answered, not side stepped and danced around. Please be so kind as to provide direct answers when time permits. Gavin |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
You may want to digest this victorain period etching further. Gavin |
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Fortunately academic debates are not necessarily won based upon who writes the most about the subject during the debate just as in person arguments are not won by the person who argues the loudest. Frankly i see that you have proved nothing in this debate. And very clearly more than one person disagrees with your conclusion while i do not see anyone lining up who agrees with your hypothesis. I will add myself to the growing group of people who are at least voicing their opposition to your theory. I suspect that many are remaining silent because they don't see the point of argument. The pommel figure is undoubtably a lion to my eyes. It has lion features that are not known to have ever been a part of the Makara motif such as the mane and is missing many of the features such as the snout/trunk which are classic indicators of the Makara. I am afraid that if you cannot see the pommel is clearly a lion's head, especially with this last picture posted by Gavin, that further debate with you on the subject is futile. But do carry on if it makes you feel any better. :shrug: |
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Dear Ibrahiim,
Please also find better sources for the image you supplied of Makara. This is a Leogryph, not a Makara. The head of a Lion, the body of a Griffin. Gavin |
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Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons Thank you for your detail showing the Victorian Lion. The picture of the half bird item is hugely interesting and for that I am grateful also. It appears to be a Serapendiya. (see picture below) Over the last few weeks I have been defending the Makara .. blindly perhaps... but firmly in my opinion.(not always the best way of doing business :) ) At the same time (and lacking both support and disagreements both of which are inspirational especially if criticism is constructive) I have been looking sideways with great interest at the other monsters, Deities and grotesques involved in the Kastane Hilt. Many are virtually identical but as I have said not all have vital fish or Peacock tail arrangement... but blow me down some do!! It seems possible that some highly controvertial alterations may have ensued in the way the Sri Lankan National Sword may have been been historically re written. Thus this is a highly emotive subject in some quarters. Though the Victorian view of what Europeans thought a Lion looked like I have to say that their construction may have been slightly off regarding accuracy. That to one side .. it will be apparent from my findings in looking at the broader picture that some Deities will begin to fuse .. and who knows I could end up debating the Lion head after all... The confusion is hardly surprising..Virtually every source I have looked at including museums and auction houses have a bland overall way of encompassing the description of the Kastane hilt. Some explain it in dual form either a Makara or a Lion, others call it a grotesque whilst the dragon word often intervenes. Several mix up the minor deities (if that is what they are) whilst others confuse the face on the handguard as a maiden...etc etc .. Through the ages, considering the occupation of three invading forces including Portuguese, Dutch, and British (and interference by others) all now fairly well inducted into library via this thread by the way ... and not to mention the now full information package that this thread contains..The Kastane has switched from potential weapon,to court sword, to presentation sword, to badge of office, to badge of rank, to National Sword and carries with it Buddhist forms at the quillons probably from the Vagra structure discussed here. During its history there is some evidence that restrictions on who could wear it. As early as 1807 Royal Workshops were involved in its production though exactly how this developed or from where is not yet known. It would seem that a junior officer would have a less lavish Kastane and somewhere there is possibly a rank structure/Kastane graph ...or note detailing who could wear what.. Somewhere in the martial arts system in Sri Lanka there may exist confirmation that this weapon was one of the many weapons used before or at the beginning of Portuguese involvement. Current thinking suggests Royal Workshop collusion with the Portuguese in creating the lavish hilt if not the entire item. If the kingdom which inspired the design was in fact the Karvara dynasty then the hilt is more likely not to be Lion and far more probable to be Makara. If Sinhalese then the design would more likely to be intended as Lion. In studying the different motiffs I have to add "serapendiya" (a mythical figure of an animal whose head is like that of a lion joined to the body of a bird) head quillon finials. (Frankly I had never even heard of it until I began sweeping about considering the Lion situation) See the pictures below. In fact, it may well be that #23 The quilons and guards carry Makara and Serapendiya heads interchangeably. Some swords also carry representation of deities on sword hilts in addition to the Animal forms... is correct. Picture shows Serapendiya. Perhaps this Deity holds the key? Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi |
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Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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I stand corrected on this creature, the one with the Lion head. Michael Backman has provided information about these swords and the Serapendiya when displayed in his gallery. The bibliography he provides will I am sure offer great insight in to art and armour from these regions as his reading/library list is impeccable. Gavin |
Dear Ibrahiim
Sorry if you are offended by my using your name as Balooshi. I was not aware that it was in any way offensive to you. my regrets on this one. shall call you Ibrahiim from now on. My sincere apologies... For whoever is interested I provided a rather basic outline of the main figures on a kasthana hilt based on the traditional Sinhala presentation of beast forms on my post dated 6th Oct 2012 Including Lion Makara and Serapendiya. regards Prasanna |
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Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons` Yes he knows his stuff .. thanks for the reply. On the picture you posted this was very much on cue... I was just investigating the Serapendiya...then your picture appeared... though it had been alluded to way back...I didn't have a clue about it.. Frankly I haven't seen two absolutely exact copies of these sword hilts .. they all have a certain degree of artistic impression and being hand carved mythical themes that is hardly surprising. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
This truly has developed into a great discussion, and I'm glad this thread has been revived as it seems we are getting some excellent traction in examining the peculiarities of these fascinating swords. I would like to say that I sincerely appreciate the courtesy and candor you guys display in what are often considerably opposing views, and personally I would consider this discourse a discussion rather than 'debate'.
The purpose of debate is in my perception altogether different and is an exercise in presenting and defending with support , opposed views with the objective of having a winner and loser in more of a contest and display of skills in conflict. Here I consider what we intend to achieve is fact finding and presenting plausible ideas and observations which add to the collective knowledge toward better understanding of the weapons we investigate. In my own personal view, there are many potential answers here as to the zoomorphic figures represented on these examples of the 'kasthane' as with most weapon forms, the scope of variations is broad. There were no hard and fast rules or 'patterns' followed, though obviously there was a degree of set tradition as with these creatures, and these are interpretive as represented by the artisans over periods of time, different regions and nuanced desires of prospective clients for their arms. As with many weapon forms which evolve into more vestigial forms with purposes outside the obviously combative origins, such as those which become court, dress or presentation swords, and in the cases in context of examples becoming religiously oriented for ceremony or votives...so too did the kasthane become more decorative and courtly. It seems the first provenance example is that acquired in the Japanese voyage which returned to Japan in 1620. This embassy is of course well documented and while the sword itself was not acquired in Sinhala proper, but from Spanish source I believe. I am unclear on what location that interaction took place, but the distinct zoomorphic pommel head was in place by 1615 it would seem. As the sword was acquired by the Spanish royal court some time earlier, it would seem that kasthane of this form were present by at least late 16th c . Looking into the extremely complex and diverse circumstances in then Sinhala gives numerous possibilities for the nature of the pommel heads and creatures on these swords, and it is interesting to note similar forms in South India and into the Deccan. If I am not mistaken many examples of swords remarkably similar to kasthane exist from Thailand and Deccan, among others . Perhaps these outer influences account for some of the variations in these pommel heads, and in some cases they are indeed makara, while some are lions. Deraniyagala (1942) notes the auspicious creatures and symbols favored for such decorative purposes, and the lion is distinctly noted, but among others and interestingly the makara is not mentioned. I think that the complexity of the ethnic mix and infusions from the mainland in addition to the colonial circumstances later, as well as the diffusion of the form into the trade networks , truly makes any arbitary classification or exacting analysis of these zoomorphic forms virtually impossible. In the broad scope I believe each example must be considered on its own merits, and as mentioned, the nature of the creature represented may lead to clues on the origin of the sword as in the examples outside Sri Lanka. |
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Salaams PrasannaWeerakkody ~ Thank you for your posts and oddly enough I was actually reading back through and noted your reference to the Serapendiya and had already started looking into the link. You have no idea how important it is to have such a specialist as yourself actually in country . It is so important. We have made staggering gains on the detail now on library which if you look back to #1 you will see where the start point was...at least on this thread. I was amazed to learn from the anecdotal 1807 detail that the weapon was in fact also used as a badge of rank identifier and was at that time being produced in the Royal Sword workshops. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi |
MANKIND HAS ALWAYS HAD A FACINATION WITH REAL CREATURES THAT ARE DANGEROUS LIONS (THE KING OF BEASTS), TIGERS, LEOPARDS, BEARS,BULLS, SNAKES, SHARKS ECT. WHEN PEOPLE TRAVELED AND TOLD STORIES ABOUT THESE CREATURES TO PEOPLE WHO HAD NEVER SEEN ONE THE STORIES WERE OFTEN EXAGERATED WHEN TOLD. THEN MORE STORIES MADE UP UNTIL THE CREATURE BECAME MORE THAN REAL AND MONSTERS WERE CREATED. SO A LION WOULD NOT HAVE EVER BEEN IN CEYLON FOR STORIES OF IT TO HAVE ARRIVED. NO DOUBT AS THE KING OF BEASTS IT WOULD HAVE BEEN IMPRESSIVE AND HAVE MANY POWERS.
THE MONSTER WITH THE BIRDS BODY IS MOST LIKELY THE COCATRICE. THIS MYTH WAS CREATED AND SUPPOSIDLY WAS THE RESULT OF A COCK AND A SNAKE LAYING AN EGG AND HATCHING THIS MONSTER. ITS BREATH WAS DEADLY POSION AND IF IT LOOKED AT A PERSON THEY WOULD TURN TO STONE. THERE ARE EVEN INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW TO PROTECT YOURSELF OR TO DESTROY ONE. :rolleyes: ALL THIS ABOUT SOMETHING THAT NEVER EXHISTED AND IS DIFFERENT LOOKING FROM COUNTRY TO COUNTRY. THE MAKARAS ORIGIN WAS NO DOUBT IN HINDU AND BUDDHIST COUNTRIES AND HAS THE ATRIBUTES OF SEVERAL ANIMALS AS WELL AS MYSTICAL POWERS. THE LION LIKELY CAME AS STORIES FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WHO TRADED THERE. WHEN THE PORTUGESE OR OTHER COUNTRIES TOOK POWER PERHAPS THE LION WAS SEEN AS MORE POWERFUL AS A RESULT AND ASCENDED IN PLACE TO THE SWORDS POMMEL. THE ANSWERS ARE LOST IN TIME BUT IT DOES MAKE FOR A GOOD DISCUSSION AND IT DOSEN'T REALLY MATTER LION OR MAKARA WE EACH CAN CALL IT WHAT WE WILL. :shrug: |
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The presentation to the Japanese was apparently in the Philippines..see the map above. # 169. The blade looks European but I cant make out enough of its detail, though, it is said to have stamps on the blade. Perhaps that one and the Popham item are worth considering to see if they are from the same form thus perhaps the same workshop. Which brings me to my next point concerning artistic licence ...As you point out~ every artisan has their own idea moreover having a drawing is one thing but applying it to carving with horn or wood is another dimension; Each "Rankadu Pattala" (Royal Workshops) master craftsman interpreting the ancient culture in their own way. In the same breath that is similar to the descriptive licence used by various agencies these days in writing about the Kastane Hilt as variously; Gargoyle, Dragon, Mythical creatures, Lions, Makara or Serapendiya ..all very interesting. Equally you are right about the thread which is an excellent pool of detailed information and discussion. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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regarding the information from Wikipedia regarding the travel of Hasekura Tsunenaga and acquisition of the weapons: Actually he was leaving Spain in June 1617, so the 1616 on the map from wikipedia is a mistake. The only scholar publications I am aware, which raise the question about provenance of keris and kastane are "A fundamental study on Hasekura's kastane and kris" (Bulletin of Sendai City Museum) and "The kastane and the kris, their arrival in Japan in 1620" (in Royal Armouries Yearbook, vol. 3, Leeds), both written by Sasaki Kazuhiro, curator of Sendai City Museum, in 1998. Before there are only two publications of Sendai City Museum from 1988 and 1995. Sasaki Kazuhiro has the oppinion, both keris and kastane are presented to Hasekura Tsunenaga by Philip III. Here in short he's points and other interesting details: Among the 52 mementos that Hasekura brought to Japan, only three were presented to Date clan: portrait of Pope Paul V, kastane and keris. Date Masamune drafted official letters only to Pope, the mayor of Sevilla and King Philipp III. Masamune allowed Hasekura to take care of all official contacts with dignitaries in other countries. Masamune obviously had great interest in the messages and gifts these figures bestoved on Hasekura. Then Sasaki Kazuhiro writes: "If we suppose Masamune requested only the articles from the three men he deemed most critical, then the two swords should have come from one of these three men. (...) it seems much more likely the Namban swords were a gift from Philipp III. This would also explain the reason these gifts made their way to the Masamune collection, while presents from dignitaries in other locales were allowed to remain in the Hasekura collection. (...) Certainly, Philipp III knew Date Masamune would be pleased with the presentation of the swords, as he had been presented eight armours and one sword by Shogun Tokugawa Hidetada and the former Shogun Tokugawa Ieyasu as a sign of friendship between the two countries. Howewer, he could not present Spanish arms to Date Masamune because the presentation of Spanish arms to a foreigner was then prohibited by law." Here are the detail pictures of this kastane. The blade of it is the only straight one I have seen fitted as a Kastane and is a very interesting one. There are two markings on this blade, and one of them clearly is of christian origin, yet I suppose, we could conclude with some certainty that the whole blade isn't made in Europe. Curiously enough, its decoration and fullering reminds me of some chinese swords, like the one in book of Robert Hales, page 197; - yet the chinese blades of this type are (always?) slightly curved. It is perhaps not widely known, yet Sri Lanka was nominally a vasal state of the Ming Imperium from 1411 on, and sent three more ambassys to China, 1436, 1445 and 1459. Regarding the central pommel figure, it almost always is clearly a lion indeed. There is a fair amount of objects made of ivory from Sri Lanka, which entered the european "Kunstkammer" collections at the end of the 16 century. Lion always plays a prominent character and is stylistically very close to the pommel figure of this kastane. The one depicted was acquired before 1542. And here a link to the post of Prasanna Weerakkody, which is quite informative indeed: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showpo...9&postcount=23 |
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Salaams Gustav, That is so brilliant. I cannot thank you enough for this excellent supporting detail. Not only finely written but the excellent pictures are so helpful in this discussion. Thank you Sir ! Pictures 3, 4, 5, appear to display 3. Lion. 4.Serapendiya. 5.Makara. The marks on the blade will have us diving for the books! The Hilt form comprises the Gargoyle style influenced by the mythical Lion, Makara or other ancient Buddhist Deities with supporting smaller dragons, miniature Makara or Nagas on the finials thereafter. Blade form...The blade marks to one side for a moment.. I have to say my first impression on blade shape is not Sri Lankan but Chinese..which begs the question ...Were the Chinese importing Kastane or exporting the form? They were certainly involved as you point out... and we know the trade patterns of Chinese junks even to the Red Sea...Did the Kastane now in the Japanese Museum arrive in the Philipines by Chinese ship. If it was delivered to the Philipines which way did it come from? Was it brought from Sri Lanka direct or via the long way round across the Atlantic? The Spanish East Indies were ruled as part of the Viceroyalty of New Spain and administered from Mexico City from 1565 to 1821. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Salaams All ~ Or Storta !!
Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
Dear Gustav,
Thank you for bringing these detailed images forth and indeed Prasanna Weerakkody's post you linked is quite informative and well founded from the start. Dear Ibrihiim, Quote:
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Steer away from what you read "these days" unless the writings have direct reference and support from the old days. With respect, I feel the these days experiences, writings and beliefs has clouded the reality of strong fighting sword types in your Oman dance sword thread...but back on point. Hasn't the discussion confirmed that the pommel is the Lion head, not a gargoyle influenced by the Lions head, I hope you are not now jumping from Makaras to Gargoyles...happy to work through the remainded of the icons and what creature owns the Lion head along with what appears on the quillons, quillon block and knuckle bow, followed by the blade types and perhaps any meanings and if required the scabbards found on the Kastane...but to do so we need to agree on a single sword to study and discuss to keep things on point, then once satisfied, bring other swords in to the discussion to add merit to what is found or add varient notes and study these varients. I'd like to also add that whilst both misleading and valuable information has been gained in this thread, the focus has singlely become the Kastane hilt that lead to over a year of walking down the garden path. The initial thread/question posted was about the swords of Sri lanka, perhaps we can diverse a little and consider other types too. Some very fine images have already been provided but the focus of the topic has been lost to the Kastane alone. Gavin |
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Salaams ...SwordsAntiqueWeapons Yes, you are advised to stick to the point as mixing the two is not going to assist this case and certainly of no value in the other. I don't want to list the heap of notes from auctioneers museums and Kastane descriptions offering the variety of explanations on the style... it runs to a lot... when in fact my simple array covers most of them as Gargoyles Mythical creature Makara, Lion, Naga, Seren...etc etc ... which is a reasonable way to describe this phenomena since at the end of the day it is an artisans impression thus no two are identical...and indeed there were many artisans. This thread is about the Kastane. If you wish to diversify please carry on~ the ink is free... but I would consider if I were you ... in the case of another sword, opening a new thread... unless it be related to the Kastane. There are great new avenues opening not least the new information hitherto not recorded on library except in passing... like the fine details just recieved on the Japanese Museum item and the anecdotal evidence from 1807 etc etc making this thread far from a stroll down the same path alluded to by you.. and marked by the high readership of now more than 13,000 hits...so somebody is reading the thread, no? All input is very much appreciated and it should be remembered that this is a joint forum effort and that there is a lot more to do. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Dear Ibrihiim,
Please refer to the first post, the thread starter is actually wanting to know about swords from the country, not just the kastane in its solitude...but I guess your blinkers are on again...like the lack of direct answers to my questions posed to you. The duality of your comments vs actions, ie, of your long winded threads about Makara pommels leading to the depths of god knows where to now wanting to reduce data placed in the pages by simply addressing the important mythical creatures to Gargoyles and again completely overlooking the importance of the Sri Lankan Lion motifs surprises me greatly. I am not aware of why you would want to draw from every auctioneer and sales point about how they describe the kastane...I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Ibrihiim, please, and I am not detracting from the importance of this discussion forum and the members efforts, but please understand 13000+ people have not read this thread. The counter to the sidebar is a hits counter...only the forum owners would be able to drill down the urchin statistics and advise on dwell time by readers etc...this is how the internet works...12000 of the hits may have only been a 2 minute search by readers who found the thread through key words searches...no doubt now misinformed about important icons. It is at this point that I opt out of this discussion and perhaps I will come back n another 12 months. Best of luck with Gargoyles and Dragons. Gavin |
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Salaams SwordsAntiqueWeapons. It is noted that you have opted out of this thread but sadly for the wrong reasons since I have broadened the descriptive wording in describing the Kastane Hilt to encompass the rich mythical style inherited from Buddhism and in blending the variety of Deities including Makara, Lions, Kirtimukha Serapendiya, Nagas, crocodile/human monsters and other dragon and gargoyle like effigies ...and according to the artistic idiosyncrasies of the day plus realizing that no two artists may interpret a monster like form in exactly the same way. Then there is the added function of form change where depending from which viewpoint it may be observed the mythical beast may be in one of 5 different forms...So understandably there is some discussion. Not participating, whilst it is your free choice, is regrettable but hopefully you will rejoin at some stage as your input has been much appreciated...and as I have noted ... If you want to branch out and include any weapon related to ... or in the broader context of #1 any weapons in the Sri Lankan armoury...the ink is free... here or another thread its entirely up to you. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Salaams Gustav... For what its worth I have never seen two descriptions the same... and for that matter no two Kastane the same ...Here are a few from important museums collectors and specialists but there are scores more all placing into the rich descriptive mixture a host of different images. I think the description at your reference is fairly near the artistic licence required to balance the equation. It ought to be as it took me a while to write ! The Victoria and Albert Museum. Vand A;The kastane is the national sword of Sri Lanka. It typically has a short curved single-edged blade, double-edged at the point. The hilt comprises a knuckle-guard and down-turned quillons, each terminating in a dragon's head. The swords were intended to serve as badges of rank; the quality of ornamentation depending on the status of the wearer.The establishment of European trading contacts with South Asia by the late 16th and early 17th century led to these swords becoming fashionable dress accessories among European gentlemen. St Petersberg 1850…Mounted in heavily cast and chased silver-gilt, the hilt in traditional Sinhalese style elaborately decorated with guilloche, fluting and panels of engraved foliage and florets, with the pommel and quillon formed as the stylised heads of lions and the ogee-shaped knucklebow emerging at the quillon from the mouth of a beast and terminating at the pommel in the stylised head of a dragon, the eyes of all the beasts on the hilt formed of cabochon-cut garnets or rubies. Chrispties ~A SINHALESE SWORD (KASTANE) SRI LANKA, 18TH CENTURY With curved single-edged inscribed blade with single fuller along the back-edge on each side, the decoration with foliated scrolls, the wood and bronze hilt with applied silver and brass panels, the guard of characteristic form with openwork head of a mythical beast, the grip carved with scrollwork and with dragon's head pommel. Robert Elgood. From The earliest kastane of this form that can be accurately dated was taken to Japan in 1630 where it still exists. The form scarcely changes over the next two hundred years. The pommel is invariably decorated with the snub-nosed Sinhalese lion while the lion-like serapendiya is found on the quillon and guard ends. Most kastane blades were made locally but some utilise cut down European sword blades. Kastane were symbols of rank and later examples take the same form but are covered in sheet silver and inset with precious stones whilst the blades become ornamental. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Pointing to your "important museums collectors and specialists", the first description (Victoria & Albert Museum) is describing the ends of the quillons as "dragon heads", not the pommel. Seems to me these quillon beasts are generally makara or serapendiya in most examples i've seen, but this entry says nothing of the pommel, which seems to be the point of the most heated discussions here. I'm afraid i have no idea what "St. Peterberg 1850" is supposed to be, but they clearly refer to the pommel as a stylized lion head just as so many others here have already maintained. It is again the quillon ends that are described as dragon heads and again, we here all seem to know better and recognize them as makara or serapendiya. Chrispties (i can only assume that you meant Christie's) is a renown auction house that sells any sort of antiques and other items of value. As such they are really more "generalists" than "specialists" and i have found that auction houses in general are notoriously misinformed on ethnographic edged weapons so i am not at all surprised that they would misidentify the kastane pommel as a dragon head. Auction houses are most concerned with getting the highest price possible for the items they auction. Accurate descriptions do not always factor into that equation. Robert Elgood's entry is really the only entry worthy of consideration here as it comes from an established and generally well received and excepted reference book on the subject of ethnographic weapons. Note that Elgood states that the pommel is invariably decorated with the snub-nosed Sinhalese lion, something which i believe at this point most of us seem to understand as true. I'm not sure where you want to take this thread at this point Ibrahiim, as long-standing members who have tried to stay with this discussion for so long begin to flee, but i think that at this point you are, to coin a phrase,"beating a dead gargoyle". :shrug: :) |
This discussion continues to become more fascinating, for me personally because it has returned me to research from over 15 years ago on the kasthane which I realize now was dramatically incomplete. I do recall the material on the Keicho mission and Hasekura, and I cannot thank Gustav enough for posting this keenly important data and those remarkably telling images.
Also important are the details about the connections to Ming China in the 15th century. Clearly Sri Lanka was a profoundly important trade center far back in history and the study of this history is extremely complex as well as essential in truly understanding the networks and influences involved here. The only data I have on the Hasekura reference is a news article of 1998 by Dr. de Silva of the National Museum. In this he notes some of the material mentioned in the articles posted by Gustav, and that there were a number of kasthane with carved ivory hilts (examples in the V&A in London and another in Belgium) which date from about 1415-67 . He describes the head as sinha (=lion), and this would set the terminus post quem for these hilts at least to c.1415 with sinha or lions heads. With regard to the blade on the Hasekura kasthane I think Ibrahiim has made a remarkable suggestion, that this is either an Italian storta blade or one heavily influenced by them. As has been noted, this blade shape which is relatively broad and with a peak and yelman toward the tip is very much like Chinese dao blades, however these are typically later. What seems plausible is the blade profile seen on this example, which is set in the period of the Hasekura mission (returned to Japan 1620) is of Venetian storta shape . The markings, the crowned N in particular , appear to be in an Italian 'style' and at the forte, the blocked ricasso form seems quite evident on Italian swords. With this I checked "Armi Bianchi Italiene" (Boccia & Coelho, Milan, 1975) and as I opened to #386, I was stunned as I viewed that example of storta with virtually the same blade, and examples #387 and #388 all the same and all had either human or zoomorphic lion heads. These are shown as rm Venice c.1550-54. The hilts are simple 'S' guard (opposed up and down quillons) but essentially the same system as the kastane without the central downturned quillons at the blade. As Anthony North well explained in his 1975 article ("A Late 15th Century Italian Sword", Connoisseuer Dec 1975 p.239) these Italian swords are remarkably linked to the nimchas of North Africa and as far east as Ceylon as he cites Charles Buttin ("Les Poignards et les Sabres Marocains", Hesperis, Tome XXVI, 1939) who drew the same theories. Clearly Sri Lanka was well known from far earlier times and referred to as Taprobane by the Greeks, later Serandib by the Arabs and by 1505 Ceilao by the Portuguese. The range of trade with Venice is well known as well, as well as their contacts with China, Arabs, India, North Africa etc. and as we have seen, the Ming dynasty was linked with Ceylon as early as the 15th century. I am tempted to consider the remarkable similarities of the dragon like 'fu dogs' or lions in China, though admittedly a free association thought which comes to mind as we factor in China here. We also have the possibility of provenance examples of lion head pommel kasthane as early as 15th c. (as mentioned by deSilva in his 1998 article). We now see a blade of clearly storta form deriving from Venice, whether fitered through from China or direct contact and from mid 16th century. We cannot help but wonder if perhaps these European zoomorphic hilts might have derived from oriental influences rather than vice versa. I think here the key point of our discussion is the general hilt form of the sword we know as the kasthane and its development. It is clear that the stylized monster or zoomorphic pommel head has experienced dramatic license in the profoundly wide range of these hilts, and as J.F Pieris ("A Royal Dagger from Ceylon", Connoisseur, 1938. p.24) has observed the mystical creatures portrayed on the elements of these hilts, in this case referring primarily to the serepediya, the decorative qualities have been freely exploited by the artisans. Therefore I would recommend once again that we continue the discussion with focus more on the development on the sword form itself, and that the nature or identification of the creatures represented be confined to each variant example itself. We should avoid broad assertions on the nature of these decorative elements concerning the kasthane overall, especially considering the volatility of the geopolitical status of Sri Lanka through so many centuries of history, as well as the well clouded circumstances of colonial intervention . Addendum: In further looking through Boccia & Coelho, the basic structure of these hilts in Italy becomes apparent in examples of storta and early schiavona (c. 1480-1500) with upward and downward quillons on crossguard and branched upswept knuckleguard. The inner 'crab claw' type appendages which become entirely vestigial on the kastane hilts in general seem to reflect these from a number of Italian and even Nasrid hist types. Most of the Italian examples I viewed were those of mid to end of 16th c. but the shiavona type carries back to c.1480, so the quillon system seems quite old, but essentially Italian. Re: the markings, the use of capital M with cross and orb over it occurred and the flueret design used with it similar to many quillon terminals seen. DeSilva noted that Thom Richardson stated he thought the letter on the Hasekura blade indicated ownership rather than a makers mark. |
This thread rapidly went down an interesting path.
I would like to add to Jim's post with the fact that this thread is intended for not just kastane, but also all other Sri Lankan sword forms. I think there were narrow "cutlass" with "d-guards" that were more common in more recent times, and various ancient forms... but my knowledge of all this is very limited. And, it is my impression, correct me if I'm wrong, that especially in the latter days of the kastane, it was less of an actually widespread fighting weapon than a symbol of rank, authority, and status... and the quality of the blade declined... where-as other sword forms were more popular in the days that swords (and spear, bow, cudgel..) were widespread and popular weapons in Sri Lanka... |
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The Wikepedia link is by no means complete and it will mature as the detail comes in. I have planned a pictorial account though at the moment as you must surely appreciate there are conflicting Hilt styles as described ... and for example I can show a monster Hilt form and a Lion Hilt looking form... Right now, for example, I am looking at the two earlier extant variants which look like each being drawn from different Deities (the Japanese Museum and the art work of the Popham Armour)... maybe they were made in a different workshop and by different artists and with a slightly irregular idea in their minds of what Deity to fashion... artistic impression? On the various comments by auction houses I cannot fathom your criticism since I never said they were written in stone...these are simply descriptions..and there are many more examples ...which was the reason for their inclusion..as having added to the conundrum. The inclusion of the Russian source at St Petersburg is easy to comprehend but I will add to that to clarify where a sword thus marked has arrived from... see https://www.pinterest.com/karleighvestal/swords/. By the way, without wishing to jump to the defence of auction houses, these big outfits often have superb research departments and highly specialized people therein. Obviously the Elgood description is placed for accuracy but also to show the generic wording often used in the Kastane Hilt descriptions. In reference to links on Wikepedia I beg to differ Sir, since the finest reference to the developing story is of our own Forum and this thread. I don't think I am beating a dead horse moreover your comment may be misunderstood since we usually give constructive criticism and this is certainly not. The thread is progressing, albeit slowly, and as contributors we have a duty to expose the facts especially in an area so badly illuminated before. Regarding the term Gargoyle please simply type into web search the term Makara Gargoyle then after that is considered type in Lion Gargoyle..Do you not then think that Gargoyle is a reasonable descriptive? I would add the word Grotesque as well. The following are very recently added so how can you say the thread is not progressing? viz; 1.The excellent detail already exhumed plus the added details on "Rankadu Pattala" and the 1807 revelation that the sword was considered as a rank indicator are facts not well laid out before. 2.The detail on the Japanese Museum piece perhaps showing the blade mark now being traced is fascinating. 3.The Extraordinary blade possibly Storta is a delight to see... and ponder over. 4.The new picture of the Sri Lankan VIP wearing the Kastane is amazing. I still have the drive determination and effort to continue even if others have not for now... and in an effort to display encouragement to others ... members and non members alike I continue to shine a light into the dark corners of this subject. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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Salaams KuKulzA28 Yes it is an interesting path and I am very grateful you opened the door to it. I had been studying Kastane for quite some time previously and your opener seemed to me a reasonable opportunity to examine this weapon though as you quite rightly note there are other weapons worth looking at ... though again as you say we went off down the Kastane path twisting and turning. In fact I noted in looking at Martial Arts weapons cutlass forms incorporating the Kastane style blade being used though it seems they came about post Portuguese. There are scores of weapons in the Ancient Martial Art format in Sri Lanka..Angampora. I'm certain other weapons can be added like the Piha Keatta clearly of similar design structure and other swords and weapons ~ spears n' guns. Feel free since this is your thread ...Lets do it ! Thank you for your post. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi :shrug: |
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