Arrrr lads!

Regarding pirates, I may have discovered the whereabouts of the sword of the famous Barbarossa (aye, famous before he even starred in Pirates of the Caribbean!).....in Scotland.

I`m saying no more until I can provide a photo and provenance, otherwise they`ll clap me in irons!!

Macdonald

Are you sure ? Maybe not necessaily so:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantaka

I am not an expert, but aren't those suspension dolphins on some of the pictured models of Spanish/Portuguese influence?

Lantakas had a very wide use, even becoming currency, the so called "cannon money" ... in the form of small pieces and even miniatures.
These were auctioned in 1989 in Lisbon; the triple barreled one for a fortune.
Fernando

May we come to the conclusion that piracy allways existed, as actually it may still exists ... i mean classic pirates, not the sophisticated version ones :D . Weaponry used became therefore more and more modernized.
The event depicted in the attached picture just took place "the other day".
It appears that the China Sea, after the opium war, was boiling with shameless pirates, that assaulted civilian merchant junks, also imperial ones, even threatening westerners.
Some guy called Mah Chow Wong was one of the mightiest, leading various fleets and with enough wealth to bribe whomever necessary.
They wouldn't hesitate to atack territories under Portuguese protectorate, such as Macau. This gave place for local traders, fishermen and ship owners
to ask the mandarins escort for their boats and guard to their businesses by Portuguese forces. By around 1855 a total of almost 200 Portuguese lorchas, handled by mixed Chinese and Portuguese crews, were hunting these pirates. Weapons then used were rifles, swords ( sabres ) and axes.

Barbarossa had nothing to do with any silly Hollywood "history" or Caribbean at all. He was Mediteranean

Check this

Its great to have you join in with us in our motley crew here Paul!!! :) and I'm really looking forward to hear more on your discovery. It is clear you have a keen knack for tracking incredibly important historical swords.
Please tell us something soon OK....this kinda stuff keeps me up nights.

Yannis......you're quite right, Barbarossa was in the Meditteranean, and these 'Barbary Pirates' really got around. Remember that there was considerable trading in the Meditteranean , from the Maghreb to Spain, England, France, Italy and there were was at least one Armada galleon wrecked in Scotland. Spain and Scotland were well established allies, and Bonnie Prince Charlie, was born in Rome, as the Royal House of Stuart was Catholic, by religion linking Spain, Italy, France and the Holy Roman Empire of Eastern Europe.

I would not be the least but surprised with a Meditteranean sword found in Scotland, as I have seen an example of 'nimcha' also from the Maghreb being worn by an English noble painted in the 17th century.

All best regards,
Jim

Considering the fleet size, wealth and overall achievements of Hayreddin Barbarossa, I cannot think of any other pirate in history that nearly comes close to him. Captain Morgan was promoted to governor of Jamaica? Well, Brabarossa had all of Algeria and Tunisia as a fiefdom. Considering that his fleet had more ships than his Catholic enemies combined, I would expect him to have possessed more than one sword, and I would expect his weapons to have been quite ostentatious and lavish in their decoration. I remember the portrait published in North's monograph on Islamic Arms, but I think this portrait is a century later than Barbarossa. I would expect a nimcha as far as the blade is concerned - something similar to the nimcha in Elgood's book on Arab arms, but I am not so sure about the hilt. The quillons and the hand protection typical of the Maghrebi seifs/nimchas perhaps came as a result exactly of Barbarossa's campaigns in the Western Mediterranean, as his men must have captured a large quantity of European swords and other weapons. We might perhaps even be treated to a sword of Genoese manufacture, a gift or trophy. I too am eager to see what one of Barbarossa's swords may have looked like.

It definately still does.................
 

.................and this is how the Singapore Police deal with it! Note the deck mount!

Malay Firearms


Rifled Musket & Pistol


# Pemuras (Malay Decorated Traditional Gun)

# Bedil Istinggar (Malay Flintlock Musket)

# Tarkul


Malay Cannon


# Lela Rentaka

# Lela Rambang

# Tahan

# Lada Sicupak (Aceh Cannon)

# Nang Liu-Liu (Patani Cannon)

# Seri Patani (Patani Cannon)

# Seri Negeri (Patani Cannon)

# Badak Berendam (Kedah Cannon)




Brunei Darul Salam


Pemuras


http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1...abruneiry4.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/2...sbruneizr6.jpg

Pemuras and Karga are royal regalia where the Pemuras is a large gun held against the right shoulder of the Panglima Raja wearing red ceremonial attire. While the Karga is the bullet carrier strapped on the left shoulder to the right side of the body.



Aceh Darul Salam


Pemuras


http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/5...iorswit2wx.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/2...arriorsmj9.jpg

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/1060/image0243ho.jpg




Makassar


Pemuras


http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/5...smusketsg9.jpg

"...Still in 1515 Oruç Reis sent precious gifts to the Ottoman Sultan Selim I who, in return, sent him two galleys and two swords embellished with diamonds...."
From Wikipedia


I think nimcha and any other North African style is later than his time. Straight swords were more in fashion then.

16th century contemporary painting, Louvre Museum, Paris.

And yes Jim, a sword of him could be anywhere in Europe. But it will be extremely difficult to connect it with the person.

That`s a great portrait, cheers for posting Yannis!

The sword is in private hands and it`s a matter of getting permission to view, handle, photograph and dcoument it.

I shall keep ye all updated.

Macdonald

THE LANTAKA MOST PROBABLY EVOLVED FROM WHAT IS SOMETIMES REFERED TO AS A HAND CANNON. THE HAND CANNON DATES TO THE LATE 13TH CENTURY IN EGYPT AND CHINA AND WAS USED UNTIL AT LEAST THE 1520'S IN EUROPE AND THE MIDDLE EAST. THE EARLIEST WRITTEN EVIDENCE OF MILITARY USE DATES TO THE BATTLE OF AIN JALUT IN 1260 WHERE THE EGYPTIANS USED THEM TO REPEL THE MONGOLS. THEY WERE CALLED MIDFA IN ARABIC THERE WAS ALSO A CHINESE NAME FOR THEM BUT AS IT IS WRITTEN IN CHINESE I CAN'T INCLUDE IT. THE RANGE GIVEN FOR THESE WAS 50 TO 300 METERS, DEPENDING ON THE CALIBRE AND TYPE OF POWDER USED. SOME OF THE EARLY CHINESE ONES WERE VERY ORNATE SHAPED LIKE DRAGONS AND SUCH AND WERE PROBABLY USED ONLY FOR CEREMONYS AND OF COURSE ONLY OWNED BY THE RULERS. THEY WERE ADAPTED TO USE ON SHIPS EARLY ON DUE TO THEIR PORTABILITY AND EFFECTIVENESS AT CLOSE RANGE FOR CLEARING DECKS AND DAMAGING SAILS OR DAMAGING STEARING.

NOTE THAT MANY LANTAKA HAVE A HOLE IN THE REAR TO PLACE A ROD IN TO GIVE LEVERAGE FOR TURNING AND AIMING AND ALSO TO PLACE THE ONE USING IT AT A SAFER POSITION WHEN FIREING. MOST HAND CANNONS ALSO HAVE THIS EXTENDED ROD FOR THE SAME REASONS AND I ASSUME SOME WERE EASILY REMOVED FOR EASIER TRANSPORT ALSO.

Pirates!
 

Wanted to bring this one back before it dropped off the list! Finally got some pics made of my collection. Rick (RSword) has generously agreed to help me post them as soon as he can. I'll start commentary soon so as to save time. I hope to get a little feedback on one of them that remains a mystery to me. Will comment soon...

Meriam Kota Lukut (Negeri Sembilan)



Location : Muzium & Kota Lukut, Negeri Sembilan




http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1...ut01dm3.th.jpghttp://img518.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif


Sources : http://artmelayu.blogspot.com/







Meriam Lela Rentaka 1850's (Perak)




A Rentaka is a cannon made by the Malays in copper. Lela is the name of a lady & Rentaka means strong. Gun, sulphur & gun powder was used as fire power. Lela Rentaka is versatile & can be used mounted on boats. During the Pasir Salak War, the Malays used the Lela Rentaka extensively. The 1st record of its use was during the rule of Malacca Sultanate and the fight against the Portuguese in 1511. This Lela Rentaka was made in 1850's.




Location : Kompleks Sejarah Pasir Salak




http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/6...arengp3.th.jpg

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9...arencp0.th.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/1...arenbz7.th.jpg

http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/6...arenqj9.th.jpg

http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/5...arenxv8.th.jpg

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4...arenjl6.th.jpg




Sources : http://azizanzolkipli.multiply.com

I light of recent talk in the Hu-die-dao thread, I'd like to revive this.

Here is the link to a preview of Pirates of the South China Coast, 1790-1810 by Dian H. Murray.

I've decided to highlight a few things to make it easier (since there's a lot of readable text there).

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3182/piratesy.jpg


Does anyone have pictures or examples of any of these weapons?
They are definitely a bit different than your classic Chinese weapons...
Yao-tao? Curved billhook-like blade? Now thats quite different than your normal Chinese weaponry, in fact that reminds me of Taiwanese machetes (開山刀) more than anything else...

A blast from the past
 

Something in the news recently;

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ar?CMP=soc_567

And other perspectives too

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...sco-madagascar

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...sco-madagascar

Gavin

Oh, I have to laugh !!
When Barry was here diving on Whydah Galley we all drank in the same Orleans 'watering hole' ; he was a fixture in town, had the most beautiful local girl on his arm .
Friends and acquaintances dove for him on that wreck .
His vessel Vast Explorer was still moored in Provincetown last time I was up there on business .

I'll tell you one thing; that silver/lead 'pig' was not ballast .

Brings back some great memories .
Wild days and nights . :D

You guys have no idea ........ :rolleyes: :D

There's a book about Whydah and Barry written by one of the divers .
Walking The Plank; good read .

Sounds good! :D

memories to remember... ;)

Very good Spiral .
We used to surf right over where Whydah lies; she lies about 250 yards straight offshore of Marconi's wireless site on the bluffs in Wellfleet .
http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/med...ni-station.jpg

Well, that explains why Mr. Clifford didn't get back to me! I contacted him via the Whydah Museum several months ago about a blurb for my book. He contacted me back and said he'd do it!! I was blown away and very happy (I've read all of his accounts on the exploration of the Whydah, his book 'The Lost Fleet' being an exceptional read) and was excited he would be saying something about the book. Unfortunately, he never followed up and my publisher didn't wait for a reply....sigh. I've heard he was heavily criticized for the way he retrieved the ingot off Madagascar. Some uppity archaeologists didn't like the way he did the dive, I suppose.

He moved the Whydah museum out of Provincetown and I haven't kept track of where the artifacts are now .
Controversy seems to follow him .

Wow! I wasn't aware of that. Yes, controversial, but still a fascinating fellow. Kind of like a pirate, eh? ;)

What can I say, but aarrr . ;)

:D :rolleyes:

Gav,
Thank you for reviving this thread, it doesn't seem that long ago!
It's always great to see these topics brought current when new material comes up.......in this case in the form of an ingot!

As Rick notes........this aint no ballast!!!
Why would a block of ballast have assayers stamps, and all the other pertinent markings and devices placed on precious metal ingots??
I think the only issue is how to prove that this ingot belonged to Kidd's Adventure Galley, when there were a good number of other pirate vessels frequenting Isle Sainte Marie.

The kinds of marks in groupings correspond to many of those found on the Atocha (1622) ingots by Mel Fisher's group.

It sure sounds like the UNESCO folks have problems with Mr. Clifford, but who knows what the circumstances are, and it seems more than unlikely that he would contrive these findings given his reputation.
It would appear that most of these finds and maritime discoveries end up with far more political strife than anything comparable on terra firma.

Congratulations to our own resident 'Brother of the Sea' on the recent publication of his long awaited novel!!! Bravo Cap'n Mark!!!

Ships of that era were ballasted with stone for the most part .
The marks could possibly have been added later and I suppose forensic archaeology might be able to reveal such .
I would not like to cast aspersions on those involved in its recovery .

Maybe it could be a pig of lead which would be melted and used for small arms shot ? :shrug:

Thanks Rick,
It does seem of course that ballast was usually of some sort of disposable commodity, which could be exchanged for the weight of cargo on return trip. I can see large blocks of lead used for shot etc. but again, why would assay, owners marks and the tax stamps be there (there was no 'Royal fifth' on lead was there?).
I agree, for all Mr. Clifford has done in adding so much to the wealth of history and artifacts recovered, it seems unfortunate that he should be discredited by these politically charged organizations.
All the best
Jim

My curiosity as always compelled me to keep looking into this, as I wondered more on why this 'ingot' would be taken for lead ballast.
As Rick has noted, it seems more common that indeed stone or gravel was used, but as I found more:
In 17th century England lead ingots for ships hold ballast were indeed made; those called 'big pigs' were of 63 bs. weight....there were smaller ones of 32 lbs, accordingly called 'small pigs'.
Apparently the shapes of these ballast ingots could identify nationality of ship in some degree,
English: had a boat like structure, flat front, convex sides
Spanish: rectangular
French: salmon (?) shape

(from: "Underwater and Maritime Archaeology in Latin America"
M. Leshikar-Denton and Erraguerena, 2008)

This bar presented by Clifford is 50 kg. (110 lbs) far larger and heavier than ballast 'pigs', also, again, why would there be the tax, assay markings as seen on ingots of precious metal?

It seems that eyewitness accounts of the sinking of the 'Adventure Galley' in 1698, it was near the spot where it had been careened. As it was sinking it was thoroughly looted and stripped of everything, including cannon.

Clifford had begun dives and excavations in the bay at Isle Saint Marie in 2000, but the wreck they worked on turned out to be Condent's "Fiery Dragon" as confirmed by materials such as Chinese pottery fragments etc.
He apparently found and excavated from 13 wrecks. The one he located the ingot from he believes to be the 'Adventure Galley'.

In the wreck which turned out to be the 'Fiery Dragon', there were piles of ballast STONE ("X Marks the Spot: The Archaeology of Piracy" , Skowronek& Ewen, 2006, p.112).

Since these new discoveries were in May this year, it is unclear what sort of context was found regarding ballast in this location, but the claims that what was found was port construction rubble rather than ship structural elements sounds very suspect. Clearly Mr. Clifford would know the difference.
It indeed appears that ballast 'stones' were in use rather than any lead 'pigs' although Condent' ship was burned and sank in 1721. Regardless, in the case of the 'Adventure Galley', why would a single 'pig of ballast be the only one found. Ballast mounds, regardless of material, typically remain as a single mass. A lead weight of this unusually large and heavy size, suggesting others with it if indeed ballast, would certainly not be swept away by currents.

The 'lore' of Captain Kidd's treasure has fueled the search for lost pirate treasure for centuries, and writers such as Edgar Allen Poe and Robert Louis Stevenson based much of their famed stories on it. There have been countless schemes and innovative syndications etc aligned with romantic optimisms of this 'treasure', which in reality is probably just lore. However, it does not seem infeasible, that a single silver ingot, may just have been overlooked from perhaps deep in the hold of Kidd's hopelessly worn out ship as it sunk.

If I were looking for Kidd's treasure here's where I'd look .
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardin...d#Captain_Kidd

Exactly Rick!
Actually it is well known that Kidd did bury 'some' amount of loot, I believe coinage, at a location on Gardiners Island, and that was I believe recovered soon after he was arrested.
He was probably one of the only authentic instances (known) of a pirate actually burying 'treasure'. This notion seems to have escalated into legend from this. I believe that Kidd made overtures to having left treasure at some secret location so as to induce his captors to allow his release to obtain it .
However, this was clearly not taken too seriously, at least outwardly, though some covertly made their own efforts toward locating it.

Toward the middle of the 19th c these tales of Kidd's treasure had become legendary, just as did this most unlikely pirate. There were people all over the northeast, especially in New York areas, who became self styled treasure hunters with all manner of bizarre twists and occult and mystical methods .
The family of noted Mormon Faith founder Joseph Smith were known to have dabbled in this pursuit, and the writers Poe and Stevenson knew of and were inspired by these tales.
Even the fabled Oak Island has become a suggested location for this supposed 'treasure' long since disproven.

As most seasoned treasure hunters often admit, in many ways, the treasure is in the hunt itself! But then, wouldn't it be nice if !.....?????

To make the pirates feel at home ....

and a workshop for pirates: how to make a cannon :)

WOW!!
Ulfberth, thank you!!!
What incredible grouping, and brings to mind the probably unimaginable spectrum of arms and armour which might have been present on these pirate ships. Clearly such things as the morion might not fit into the scope of famed illustrations such as those by Pyle and Wyeth, but in reality, these guys used whatever they got their hands on.

And the ship model, skull and cuphilts :)

Thank you again,

Jim

I know there is controversy with Mr. Clifford's find, but as Jim points out, this man is an expert. I refuse to believe he can't tell construction materials from an old wreck. The naysayers might convince me that it isn't the Adventure Galley, but not a pile of ordinary rubble. I suspect that the powers that be might not want Clifford or anyone else diving the wreck, so they are 'poo-pooing' it. Why? Greed, arrogance, a grudge against treasure hunters, protection of the wreck site or coast. it's not that hard to imagine. Even when Mel Fisher found the Atocha, it took him many years to claim it, as our own government tried to fleece him of it. Other countries are even stricter, as evidenced by that country (was it Spain?) that seized a treasure hunter's ship a few years back. I've got to find that article again...

Treasure is still out there to be found!
http://gma.yahoo.com/florida-sunken-...l-finance.html

Well said Mark!
What is incredible is that these 'press releases' from these large organizations are deliberately using these vague claims against his work in what appears to be certain disharmony regarding conflicting ajendas.

Mr Clifford has been diving and exploring and researching thoroughly in these locations since 2000. One of his colleagues, Ken Kinkor, is probably one of the most thorough and well informed researchers I have ever seen on these subjects. How in the world could this organization expect to pass off this idea of a lead pig!!!???

I think the thing is that because they are a large, well funded organization, they believe that their assertions will be readily accepted by the often and unfortunately less than well informed public. Most people will accept that this must be lead, because they say it is. Why in the world would someone as world renowned and well reputed as Mr. Clifford even try to pull off such a shallow ploy?

As you say, indeed there is treasure out there, at least in some degree.
What is amazing to me is reading through vintage books on maritime history, shipwrecks and piracy and how many 'lost' ships were noted and suggested would probably never be found. Over the years I saved clipping of these as they were indeed found, and placed them in the pages of those books :) It will be interesting one day when others go through my books to find these 'treasures' (of the adventure kind:)

I'll say no more than this:
Mr. Clifford has always been a somewhat controversial figure . :shrug:
As was Mr. Kidd .

Think seems to be broken...or maybe my IE? Here is another;

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2...n-archaeology/

Gavin

There is another just to the South of this inlet .
View is looking North .
http://www.evsjupiter.com/main.htm

Jim, you need to write a book about all of your experiences and such! I've said that before! I, fir one, would love to see your research on the wrecks published here, at least! I think with the passing of Michael we all need to be more retrospective of what we have to offer, be it snippets of information or whole columns of knowledge. In any case, regarding Mr. Clifford, I trust in his work. His past 'controversies' involve getting past government beaurocracy red tape on diving privileges, rights to treasure finds, and gossipy/snippy behavior with some of his compatriots, but NEVER falsification of his research.

Organizations, on the other had, I don't trust. Like governments or individuals, they have hidden agendas. Whether it be museums selling off cultural treasures at private auctions or governments that claim all valuable finds of any kind must be surrendered to them for 'the good of the people', it is all BS to me...

Gav, thanks for that unbroken thread-

THE CORROSION ON LEAD IS VERY DIFFERENT FROM THAT ON SILVER SO AT LEAST THE OUTER COATING WITH THE MARKS AND SUCH ARE SILVER. IF LEAD IS IN THE CENTER THEN PERHAPS SOMEONE STOLE THE REAL SILVER INGOT AND MADE UP THIS ONE BACK IN THE DAY. IN SUCH A CASE PERHAPS THE FAKE INGOT COULD HAVE BEEN SECRETELY THROWN OVER THE SIDE WHEN SALVAGE WAS BEING DONE BY THE THIEF OR THIEVES SO THEY WOULD NOT BE FOUND OUT. THINGS OF THIS SORT HAVE HAPPEND SO IT IS A POSSIBILITY IF INDEED THERE IS LEAD PRESENT. A TREASURE HUNTER AND SCHOLAR OF ALL THINGS PIRATE AND TREASURE WOULD BE ABLE TO TELL. SHIPWRECKS AND PIRATES AAAARGH ! :D