That is not quite the case at Omdurman~ see http://www.historytoday.com/david-sh...attle-omdurman

The British position proved unassailable being not only in depth but included gunships to the immediate rear in direct support and covering the gaps. It included recce groups forward as well as various squadrons of lancers capable of offensive action and covered by artillery and machine guns. This was a heavily fortified dug in position and to boot the weapons they had were the most modern of the day. Viz;

Quote"Kitchener’s army of 17,600 Egyptian and Sudanese troops and 8,200 British regulars, was heavily outnumbered, but had at its disposal fifty pieces of artillery, ten gunboats and five auxiliary steamers on the Nile. It also possessed forty single-barrelled, water-cooled Maxim machine-guns, each capable of firing six hundred rounds a minute. The British infantry was equipped with Lee Metford rifles, or its successor, the .303 Lee Enfield. They both had a range of 2,800 yards, and a skilled rifleman could fire up to ten rounds a minute.

The Khalifa’s army consisted of about 60,000 tribesmen, mainly ansars or servants of Allah, referred to as Dervishes by the British. According to the young war correspondent, Winston Churchill, it resembled nothings so much as a ‘twelfth-century Crusader army’ armed with spears, swords, and with hundreds of banners embroided with Koranic texts.

In terms of weaponry, however, the Khalifa’s army was not quite as primitive as it looked. The Dervishes possessed some 15,000 captured shoulder arms, even though they were poorly maintained. Their riflemen were dispersed among the spearmen and swordbearers in the hopes of giving the latter a better opportunity of getting to grips with the enemy. They also possessed some captured pieces of artillery and machine guns but hardly any appropriate ammunition.''Unquote.

Where the enemy went wrong ~and I disagree with the outnumbered situation since when attacking an adversary the number of troops to task should be three to one...The factor here was less than 2 to one...but it was the fact that this was a no surprise, frontal, daylight attack on well trained, prepared troops with support weapons which commenced continuous firing at a range of about 2 miles...If one factor was to play an important part in this battle it was the nonsense of a daylight strike when a night attack would have probably halved the casualty rate and could have been decisive if done with covering fire... They simply weren't trained to do this.

What I find amazing is that many British were left almost out of ammo... and had the enemy brought in reserves at the critical moment the situation could have been different.. Men were down to two rounds... The enemy however were by then shot to bits and still held at range...totally out gunned. :shrug:

Outgunned indeed. :shrug: The daylight attack was met with a hail of bullets at 600 rounds a minute from the machine guns both on the frontal position and flanking gunships floating just to the rear and in the gaps. Rifle fire from Enfields and Martini Henry would have been pouring into the massed tribal infantry and in those days before the Geneva convention the British all had dum dum bullets which particularly at 100 to 200 metres would have been devastating..As in fact, was Martini Henry.. You can see rifles being exchanged because they were probably cooking off... too hot... and the reserves in rear with extra resupply of ammo and casualties being recovered... all very modern stuff and in addition British artillery with its new explosive shells was having literally a field day.

In terms of different ammunition the Martini was trialed with various improvements to the thin paper like crinkly brass case variant that was infamous for jamming in the breach. See http://thebiggamehuntingblog.com/201...ritish-empire/ for an interesting page of detail on the rounds.

Below a belt of my own ammo for the Martini Henry, A british Infantryman with the weapon, a 3 d Image of the system and the evolving ammunition ending with the 303 on the right..

There is a good publication on The Martini Henry.

Its states Quote" The breech-loading, single-shot .458in Martini-Henry rifle has become a symbol of both the Anglo-Zulu War of 1879 and the numerous battles in Egypt and the Sudan in 1884-85, but continued to be used by both British and colonial troops well into the 20th century. Its invention and introduction into British service were in direct response to the success of the Prussian Dreyse needle gun, which demonstrated that the breech-loading rifle offered faster loading, improved accuracy and superior range; significantly, the weapon could be loaded and fired from a prone position, thus offering the rifleman greater security on the battlefield. Due to the longevity of service, many Martini-Henry rifles survive today, both in museums and in private collections, and the weapon is highly prized by shooting enthusiasts. Featuring specially commissioned full-colour artwork and an array of arresting first-hand accounts and written by an authority on warfare in the Victorian era, this engaging study tells the story of the powerful Martini-Henry and its impact on the battlefield, from the Anglo-Zulu War to the opening months of World War I."Unquote.

There is a very substantial preview at https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0hENRY&f=false

When it came out...The Martini rifle was actually defective. The ejection mechanism was weak. The ammo was paper thin crinkly brass that had a habit of jamming in the breach and the barrel, though reasonable, was not a patch on the Metford that could drop a man at 1000 yards ... Metford himself showed that by using his own weapon in a shooting competition that he won at that very range.

The Martini Henry weapon development can be viewed at~ https://books.google.com.om/books?id...0works&f=false

Yes....and that is the reason that the lever is so long, so that it gives strong leverage on the cartridge head to extract stuck rounds.
Stu

The Martini does have a weak extraction system, and this was made worse by the foil cases. With drawn brass, it works much better.

We use them and other Victorian arms at our annual shoot.
Apart from paper at short range, the P'53, Snider and M-H are also shot at longer range, of about 700 yards.

They can produce quite respectable targets. :)

Thanks to kahnjar1 and Pukka Bundook for spot on detail regarding the Martini Henry. The new ammunition and longer ejection handle did a lot to correct the initial fault and looking at the rate of fire in the hands of a trained infantryman the net effect was close to magazine fed weapons with more than 20 rounds a minute being recorded.

One of the big problems; using black powder ammo was a great billowing smoke cloud causing the target to be obscured as seen in the many portrayals of the MH in artworks of the time.

True about the smoke but then all black powder weapons suffered the same problem. The Martini of course was later made in .303 which were smokless, so the target was not obscured.
Stu

Here's that crinkly case ammo that was a problem when it fell apart in the breach..

Fascinating reading! Ibrahiim, I also own a Martini-Henry, for which I load lathe-turned shells with 60-85 grains of black powder. I cast my own bullets with a specially made mold.

I saw a Martini-Henry for sale in a big souk when I visited the UAE in 2012. I also travelled to Dibba on that occasion, and unknowingly must have been quite near you in Oman.

Regards
Johan

Very good to hear! Reloading ammo was very popular here..the striker cap was rudimentary; a couple of match heads jammed in with sandpaper

And a very much guessed at charge ..
ln arabia the barrels were cut back getting rid of a lot of unnecessary barrel and bayonet lug...lightening the weapon considerably with little loss in accuracy.

Salaams Ibrahiim. Very interesting. Having seen that Martini-Henry at the souk, and a brass cannon on a carriage I would dearly have loved to own, we travelled past Dibba down a long road toward a "Friday Market" just outside of Masafi. Unfortunately I was with family who did not share my edged weapon/firearms interests, so there was nobody I could share my enthusiasm with.

Regards
Johan

Salaams Johan ...some 20 odd years ago I was sitting on an old pipe in the middle of a much older Fort in central Oman when I noticed the pipe had a sort of plaque stuck on it... It was a hot day... but scrabbling off the dirt it read Gun Barrel of Vasco Da Garma etc etc ... and after moving aside more dirt it turned out to be an 8 foot long bronze cannon barrel!! Just too heavy to even consider lifting but I could envisage it in the middle of my dining room... !!

I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

:shrug:

One of my lectures this month was Rudyard Kipling Wee Willie Winkle volume, and it also contained the short tale The man who could reign (from which a famous movie came). It spends some text explaining how the Khyber pass Martini Henrys were made and where.

This Snider precedes MH but it has an interesting butt modification
https://www.icollector.com/SNIDER-EN...IDER_i33570078

What an interesting rifle. I have never seen a stock modification on any snider, apart from the odd one with Maori carving, and I have seen many sniders over the years. Obviously done to represent the jezail stocks of the Khyber region, but why would one bother to modify what would have been a perfectly functional stock anyway??
Thanks for posting.........
Stu

That Snider is indeed an interesting gun. I have never seen a Snider with a Jazail style butt modification. My only guess is the owner was used to handling older Jazail style muzzle loaders in the past, and modified the stock to suite his personal taste. For sure an Afghan local modification. Very cool. Wish I had seen it first. LOL

Rick

Rick it may well be for sale by now , the buyer always purchases many firearms and is most likely a dealer. Downside it the price will be more.

The Swinburn Henry

Reference ..
A....http://antiquearms.org.nz/articles/swinburn-henry/
B....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swinburn%E2%80%93Henry

I have to admit that my knowledge of Martini Henry variants was sketchy at best however I have now read such excellent write ups as at the references that I can now see where they fit … We have in Oman various marks of MH and the different types of ammunition. Local variations were changed to suit the more slight stature of the arab individual by sawing back the barrels making the system much lighter and disregarding the bayonet. Once the caliber had changed to 303 around 1890 it would inevitably mean the single shot weapon would be overtaken if someone could invent a magazine ...although trained riflemen could in fact deliver 20 plus rounds a minute just by hand feeding single rounds. I digress as the aim is to introduce the Swinburn Henry an almost exact lookalike ...with a few differences.

Please view the excellent report at Reference A on this weapon.(with excellent artwork and photos)

See also reference B wikepedia on the weapon..which states~

Quote"The Swinburn–Henry rifle was a breech-loading lever-actuated single-shot rifle that was used by British Commonwealth forces in the late 1870s as substitute for the Martini–Henry, which was at the time in short supply."Unquote.

The problem or one of them with the Swinburn Henry was the extractor device which relied on a sliding plate but was very prone to jamming. It did however have a unique half and full cocking device in about the same place as the MH Load indicator lever..but much longer and functioned well. This would be useful in preventing an accidental discharge of the round up the spout while on horseback..thus a good bit of kit on the cavalry carbine.

May I recommend Neil Aspinshaw's seminal book on the Martini Henry which is about to be published (see www. martinihenry.org) which deals with the many stories and myths about the rifle and explains the actual effectiveness of the weapon and it's ammunition. The result of years of close study from primary sources.

Also one should note that most of the smuggled Martinis and bazaar sold ones around the Persian Gulf were Belgian made using the 577/450 ammunition but not identical to the actual service Martini Henry.

:shrug:

Thanks for the detail about the book about to be released on the Martini Henry. This thread is composed from years of research …

ACTUALLY ABOUT 38 YEARS IN ALL FROM MAINLY MY OWN EXPERIENCE WITH THE WEAPON AND AS A DEALER IN THEM FROM AN ACTIVE ANTIQUES SHOP FOR AT LEAST 10 YEARS . THE POSTS TO INSPECT IN THIS REGARD AND ON THE WEAPON FAVOURED BY TRIBALS IN THIS REGION CAN BE SEEN AT #84...38 AND 5 (ONE IS A BOOK) AND WE ARE ALWAYS READY TO VIEW ANY PUBLICATION AS IT ARRISES. I AM SURE THE NEW BOOK WILL GET A GOOD AIRING ON THESE PAGES. :shrug:

I was of the impression that most of the "smuggled" Martinis were in fact copy made in what is now Pakistan, though no doubt some were stolen from the British Army. If Belgian made, then surely they would carry a proof mark, and though they may exist, I have never seen a Belgian proof on a Martini. Most "smuggled " Martinis I have seen carry no marks at all, and appear never to have been marked, as there is no sign that marks have been removed.
Perhaps Ibrahiim, who will have seen many "local" Martinis could advise if he has seen any Belgian proved Martinis.
The fact that they were made in 577/450, was that this caliber was what was in common use at the time. Of course they were superceded by .303 when that caliber came into regular use.
Stu

Please see #95 which outlines the amazing fact that Muscat marked MH were made in Maastrict and smuggled into the region under bales of pottery... The Famous Maastricht pottery commonly still found in Muscat.

Heres the post below ~ I PLACED A Muscat MARTINI AT #17....

Interestingly I collected a lot of Maastricht Petrus Regout a few years ago...The famous Sphinx marked Dutch Pottery so popular in Oman from about 1880 to 1920 and earmarked in a special report by Omanisilver.com as the source of weapons smuggled to the Northwest frontier tribesmen fighting the British in that period. Thus I conclude ~

See http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html for a surprise disclosure about the famous Pottery known as Petrus Regout from Maastricht Holland which started flooding the Omani market in about 1880 for maybe 25 years... It carries the famous sphinx mark underneath.. of which there are several indicating a different year etc... Anyway these pottery bowls were more than likely used to cover the smuggling of one particular mark of Martini Henry made specially for the Muscat Market ...The Muscat Martini Henry made about 10 kilometres from Maastricht and sold into the Afghanistan market for the rebels fighting the British. These as well as weapons made up the Khyber !! were used in that campaign. Omani Silver.com at reference more or less viewing the delivery of weapons through Muscat as highly likely and we know the pottery went through there and was very popular in Oman at one Maria Theresa a piece. I have several dishes. Please read their excellent article.

http://omanisilver.com/contents/en-us/d645.html

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,
Interesting possible connection??? but can you verify that Martinis were in fact made in Holland? I do not doubt that arms were smuggled thru Muscat, but anyone could have stamped "Muscat Martini" on the breech. To me , if Muscat was an avenue for smuggling weapons, it would be rather foolish to stamp such a thing on any weapon as it would have directed the "powers that be" to the source and therefore to the confiscatuion of such weapons. With lack of any other evidence showing on the particular gun I would be sceptical as to a Maastricht origin. Dutch pottery or for that matter any other cargo COULD have been used to conceal weapons in transit.

If you refer to my post above, I asked if you can verify the existance of Belgian proved Martinis from the many you have seen?

Stu

Major General Syed Ali Hamid comments at https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunru...crash-of-1910/ on the trade into the area generally.

Period reports of British origin make more references to Belgian Martinis. Belgium having a major arms industry making tens of thousands of Martinis annually. Many, if not most, Martinis today from Arabia are of Belgian make from my observations but others will be far more knowledgable on that matter.

See also the Doctoral thesis of James Ficus on 'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds

Sometimes people mismatch Holland and Belgium, or Belgium and France.
But actualy Belgium is a country... ;)

I think i got something for you, they were made in Liege.

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30031969

Commissioned from Francotte by Westley Richards, to fulfill an order reputed to be for 36,000 rifles from the Zuid Afrikaansche Republiek. Less than one third of these were actually delivered.

Salaam Ibrahim
Is it possible that Maastricht stamps were only export proofs???
as it was a port to ship the guns
and actualy the guns were made in Liege...

Thank you Kubur for the link. These as stated, are Francotte Martinis and not Martini Henry Rifles. The action is different from the Martini Henry as described in the attached link. https://www.ima-usa.com/products/ori...nt=26168425541
So it is likely that at least some of the rifles featured in this thread are in fact Francottes rather than Martini Henrys. Only by having a particular weapon to hand would correctly identify which it is........
Francotte's factory was located in Liege Belgium.
Stu

Yes I agree .Please see #108. The Pottery was made 10 Kilometres down the road at Maastricht and the weapons at Liege. The weapons were smuggled Oman under cover of the crates of pottery..

Thanks for the fine detail at the references which are a must see for members here...

https://www.thefridaytimes.com/gunr...-crash-of-1910/

'Gun Running in Arabia' https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/c...en_access_etds[/QUOTE]

I forgot to post mine...
I think it's something from Oman...

;)

Yes the silverwork looks to be Omani. Are there any proof, or other marks on the action or barrel? If not it is likely to be a Khyber copy, as is mine.
Stu

Hi Stu
yes i have some marks and would be grateful to know what they mean
43 A
and on the barrel 604

Pics please???
Stu

here the numbers