Yes but I did say that it would take me a while to catch up... and you are a bout 6 posts in front... :) Yes of course ... we have here almost two swords... One is the Jundee Sword of the common soldier and the other is the VIP Version covered in Bling ! One could simply apply the word Hybrid and it would perhaps suffice in describing the non combat richly ornate VIP item... Thus we almost by inference identify the sword at #34 which I think is the same sword I placed at #27 as~

1 - Sword found in Sangueza: pommel is missing (XIIIth century ?, probably the oldest known) and so far as I can deduce the only old style form.

So here is the sword we may begin to compare with other Islamic weapons.

From this weapon it can be seen how artisans produced the VIP versions seen in Museums and all over this thread. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Turned Down Quilon examples. Some are of a style I would say was revivalist seen in some turned down quilons in Indian forms...others beg the question how did this develop such as in the Nimcha style of Morocco. The big group of swords are Swords of The Prophet often worked several hundred years later in gold calligraphy and highly ornate... some quilons straight others turned down.

Of all the questions I am interested in is the relationship with Nimcha ...thus please see my next post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

My question about these Jinetta and taking the original form ...How did the Jinetta pass the idea of form and style to the Moroccan Nimcha other than with the Baldric (clearly illustrated below).

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

:shrug:

The Carracks Black Sword. The Crab Sword.
 

Salaams Gonzalo G,
In red ink above ...This sword form Shown Below is interesting and found their way down the West African diaspora with the Portuguese...The Carracks Black Sword sometimes called Crab Sword, is a type of sword invented in Portugal, during the 15th century, designed to be used by soldiers and sailors in ships and caravels in the Age of Discovery.

It is characterized by having a guard with two protective rings, with the guard terminals in the form of two flat drops, the referred guard terminals facing toward the tip of the blade, and forming round large plates, sharpened to the point where they can be used as extra blades, because they can be convenient in close combat.

The protective rings, in addition to the protective function of the fingers can also serve to trap an opponent's blade.

These swords were painted black not to reflect the light and announce their presence on ships, avoiding also its rusting when used near salt water.

It was also known by Portuguese soldiers as colhona (which in rude Portuguese means approximately “big balls”) due to the round shape of the terminal plates, reminiscent of a representation of the testicles in a phallic symbol in the form of sword.

This type of sword would have appeared between 1460 and 1480 and saw much of its use in Portuguese trading cities in Africa, coming to be used as a symbol of honor by the local chiefs.

In Green Catálogo de la Real Armería[/I], edited by Aguado, Madrid, 1854. p.61. It must be noted thay they are sabres, had a guard (probably a knuckleguard) and only one quillon, since the word “gavilán” in spanish denotes a single quillon

~ Actually see https://archive.org/details/catlogohistricod00real where there is no sword on that page but at page 200 theres a strange looking weapon with a knuckle guard two quilons but only half a Guard ... I think this is your sword.... Very interesting...I see the link you point to regarding Nimcha ...and I have placed it below.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

The baldric has nothing to do, since it was the traditional way of the muslims to carry the sword.

And I didn't say anywhere that the nimcha evolved from the jineta. Please read more carefully and don't place one sword at the side of the other. What I said is that the cultural elements behind the design of the hilt of the nimcha were already present in North Africa long time ago (before its appearance), and more probably this design owes nothing to influences from Italy or France. The severe downturning of the quillons with wider "roundish" knobs is an element. The other element is the development of the finger guards (which in the nimcha are vestigial), and that this development, as also that of the pas-d'ane, is due to the influence from the fighting jineta sword. Please read Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, "From Medieval Sword to Renaissance Rapier" in Gladius, Vol. II, 1963, especially pages 30 to 34, the downloading is free.

I will remark that the influences on the development of the curved quillons with ring guards, pas-d’anes and the “Italian grip”, in fact does not from Europe to North Africa. It is exactly the opposite. Let´s read what Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer writes in other work:

“When the Damascus Caliphate parts in an Eastern and a Western Caliphate with centres in Baghdad and in Cordoba, the Oriental line becomes reinforced on the Iberian peninsula, When some centuries later new Berber tribes are crossing the Strait of Gibraltar, particularly the Benu Marin tribes in the 12th and 13th centuries, the Latin line gets a strong impulse, which gives birth to the so-called finger-bows, the pas-d'anes and the “Italian” method of grasping the sword handle. This new method is seen on the Iberian peninsula already in the 13th century, if not before!”
Ada Bruhn Hoffmeyer, “Introduction to the History of the European Sword”, Gladius, Vol. I, 1961, pp.43-44.

It is also possible that the endings of the ring guards and quillon of the nimcha would be a vestigial presence of pitons. About this, and also about the influence from North Africa to Europe in the 15th Century, please read:

"From these swords with pas-d'ane below the quillons it is no long
step to the next protective measure, the two small pitons, iron tiges
ending in small knobs projecting from the lower ends of the pas-d'ane.
They were possibly inspired by the Moroccan swords of about the same period.

Sha said "possibly", so it is not a fact, but this testifies to the early presence of pitons in Moroccan swords before their presence in Europe. The other element is the knuckleguard. This element probably is the only one on the hilt of the nimcha which is due to the influence of Europe, most probably through Spain, since the Spaniards had permanent military presence in Oran during this period. I mentioned before that in an inventory in the Catálogo de la Real Armería in Madrid are described four sabers which seems to correspond to nimchas, sabers coming from Oran during the expedition of 1732, so we can presume that this type was already present, if not well before.

Thus, elements developed from the Berber swords were used later in the design of the characteristic nimcha hilt, named the strong downcurved quillon and the (vestigial) finger guards. Also, references from the 15th Century describe the presence of knob-pitons. Probably the first references we have from them mention the presence of a curved blade or a straight single-edge blade. This is not the same that saying that the jineta evolved into a nimcha. The jineta, in any case, evolved into a type of European sword, with some admixtures or changes. We can even say that those swords are a hybrid. But the cultural inheritance of this proces was also owned by western North Africa, it did not came from Europe, probably only the use of a knuckleguard.

So? It is what I said before. Are you implying that the black sword influenced the development of Moroccan swords? Please read the serious works I referenced and stop copying pages from Wikipedia and jumping into conclusions from them. I know that stuff well.
Besides, the Portuguese only had few commercial post in the coast of Morocco and didn't penetrate into Berber land.

By the way, it is to be noted that foreign swords were used as symbols of prestige among many peoples. The French and the British also purchased oriental swords as "exotics". You know, to show off. The Deccan Court in the 16th-17th Century only purchased English swords as gifts, since they considered that they were useless as fighting weapons from their bad quality (see Robert Elgod in Sultans of the South).

Bye

HA ! Tengo que llevar zapatos que me quedan o seguro que tendré un gavilán :)

Let us digress ... if you guys don't mind
 

For as much as authors claim their knowledge and state their opinions as if they were facts, lack of susbtantial evidence often forms their strong adversary.
The black sword episode, as i suppose originally brought up, comes in HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES (page 164), by Rainer Daehnhardt
The conclusion that black swords were to prevent them from rust and also to prevent them from light refection, is his assumption. There is nothing written to state so; the name given in period inventories was ESPADAS PRETAS DE BORDO (board black swords). Assuming the rust prevention sounds logical, the double purpose of light reflection, which the author cites in first place, may be taken, nothing avoids, as just a romantic touch.
On the other hand, the 'colhona' swords 'convenientely' having their terminals sharpened to function as extra blades in a man to man fight, being also a quotation present in the same book, may only lack the term 'often' as nothing shows that they all had this intervention, but still has its veracity, as stated and surely verified in an example shown in the said work.
Maybe the down curved quillons issue has a more precise approach in this thread, but still interesting to notice how this phenomenom spread around, as shown (again) in the quoted book. The location and age of these examples attributed by the author is facultative.

#1 Sword of 1500's navigator, of Venetian origin.
#2 Sword breaker, also called left hand dagger of the reeds, Portuguese
influence in the Orient, XVIII-XIX centuries.
#3 Sword of Portuguese navigator, end XV century. Attributed to Pedro
Alvares Cabral (Brazil discoverer).
#4 Portuguese colonial sword, XVI century. with the magic number 1441
and the Passau wolf engraved in the blade.
#5 Portuguese colonial sword, with the round terminals sharpened and
perforated with the cross symbol.
#6 Portuguese colonial sword, with golden brass guard.
#7 Navigator sword second half XV century, used both in the Iberian
Peninsula as also by Italian peoples, then cultularly interconnected.

(All examples belonging in the R.D. collection)
.

Salaams Fernando~ First; your examples of the Crab swords are excellent and add weight around the general theme. In your opener you note about authors and knowledge and perhaps truth and fiction for it is a two edged sword writing books. It is as if whatever has been committed to print in a book must be true. As a foil to that theory what is written in Forums takes on an opposite slant... It becomes a target for knocking down and has to be stacked up with book based facts "Chapter and Verse" before it can be even considered! On balance I agree with that and it is on the hot anvil of discussion that these things are ironed out..sometimes quite fiercely indeed.

It goes without saying that one of the broadest puzzles is built in and around the Nimcha and one of the most contentious. Many mainly Mediterranean countries appear to claim some aspect of the architecture of this weapon but it hardly stops dead at the Moroccan version since that was its format at that time and aspects of that surely transmitted to other weapons... not least to the Zanzibari Nimcha and other swords which were exported to the Americas sporting similar hilts. The Great London Band's officers used the Nimcha; Tobias Blose is shown in a painting in the late Anthony North's Islamic Arms wearing the weapon.

In another thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=nimcha there is included in quote a question about sword style transmission by Jewish craftsmen in red below viz;

Quote" Pallasch; Culture: blade - Italian, Milan (with Ottoman decorations), mount - Ottoman, vessel (Hilt?) - Morocco
Dated: 16th Century
Material and Technique: blade of iron, forged, etched and engraved grip of iron, wood, horn
Measurement: total length of 107.7cm; blade 93.9cm; weight 1817g

Elector Christian I of Saxony received the saber as a gift in 1587 by Francesco I de ‘Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany. This weapon is one in many respects to the peculiarities of the Turkish Chamber. First and foremost, the impressive appearance is mentioned, which is caused by the massive, ornate edged blade.

This saber is made of very different work areas. While the vessel(hilt?) is from Morocco and the typical form there corresponds with strongly angled work and s-shaped quillons, the blade is an Italian work. She has been a chosen, and was crowned Pi marked accordingly in Milan.

The blade was then decorated in the Orient. The etched and partly engraved decoration consists of medallions with stripes and scrolls, flowers and leaves. The middle stripe is a Spanish inscription found in a secret script-like character.

How did this strange mixture of different origins (come about) is not yet clear. Could possibly play in the events following the reconquest of Spain by 1492. Many Spanish Jews left the country after the conquest of Granada and moved some of North Africa in the dominion of the Ottomans."Unquote.

Source & Copyright: Staatliche Kunstsammlungen Dresden.

The Nimcha hilt can be seen below..

... Nothwithstanding those that i envy, whom by reading, learning and reasoning, achieve a level of wisdom and common sense that enables them to filter those often ocurred sources implausibilities. We may be glad to enjoy the presence of a number of these persons around here.

Have a look at this sword ... and read what the owner writes about it:

" The Moroccan Nimcha. A sabre of Portuguese influence. The handle with a shape of horse head is a remnant of the Lusitanian falcata, which descends from the Indo-European type. The shape of the guards, turned towards the blade, originates in Portuguese swords. The protecting ring and the (knuckle) guard that raises to the pommel were influenced by the Portuguese swords of the first half XVI century."

... Would you guys find this is plausible ?


.

Drooping quillons, prestige, plausibility and all ...
 

Hoping that Ariel doesn't get upset for this diverting on his "Jineta/nimcha/kattara" topic ... :o.

This one, from the same collection, reads:

"Sword of a Benin sovereign, in the Costa da Mina, XVI-XVII centuries. The iron blade, with the brass inserted christian cross, has a classic shape, already seen in Pharaonic tumbs. The guard is of Portuguese influence, with two protection rings for the index finger, forming a protection bridge decorated with the face of a Portuguese. The grip shows infuence of Cingalese armoury, certainly brought by the Portuguese fleets ".


.

Salaams Fernando, and again thanks for your input which is an eye opener ... The weapon you show as a Moroccan Nimcha, however, is Zanzibari. The knuckle guard is rounded not squared. The hilt is clearly of the Zanzibari type and I can also almost see the turtle insignia shape on top of the Pommel. Butin indicates this style on Zanzibari form. Are we saying that this style was introduced to Zanzibar by the Portuguese... ?

See Below; In Butin all the Knuckle Guards in Moroccan examples are squared off. In Zanzibar types they are all rounded.

I was not reputing as good the attribution given by the author to this nimcha; that was not the point. I was only quoting (by translation) his assumption :shrug:.

The art work you show here is quite phenomenal and in all likelihood links the Kastane with Portuguese form at first glances. Can it be tied to Sri Lankan style? Does it not appear to be German? ...See below for other similar hilts. Could it not be Storta in form? I place a frame load of Storta for interest and comparison.

Ah ... you raise this question to the author i have being quoting and he will immediately state that, the downturned quillons in the Kastane were brought to Ceilão by the Portuguese and, as the locals didn't resource to Portuguese fencing style, those quillons in Kastanes soon became 'atrophied'.


.

But they aren't Quilons per se. These come from the Vajra format in the religion of the region... Probably Tibetan origin. Pre 5th C. AD
I would further suggest that the Kastane became a court sword and transitioned before that as a secretaries sword in the equivalent of the civil service but that in the Portuguese era another form may have existed...similar to the stone carved example below, lying on the ground, bearing in mind that differences in the guard may be the result of it having been made by a Portuguese stone mason.... so it may be slightly wrong...however, it seems the blade is a battle field one; and the rest of the carving is accurate. Not the flimsy blade seen on Kastane afterwards. I could go on to suggest that the early battlefield Kastane may not have had quilons at all; like the weapon below in stone. It has a straight guard. No quilons.

By the way the sword you have ringed above is in the Japanese Museum and was purchased as a gift by Hasekura in the Philipines. In my view that hilt is a Storta as well... hardly surprising since Iberian shipping was in the region full time and in huge numbers thus a Storta or two would certainly have been on board some of them so cross hilting could certainly have occured. That blade seems to me to be a Battlefield blade as well.

Would it not be more plausible to suggest that the sword shown from your author of the broad curved paddle style blade at #52 may have gone into the Indian Ocean ( on board a Portuguese Battleship) as a Portuguese/Benin weapon and came out in the same format unchanged and actually with no link with the Kastane?

Ahhhh! The typical colonial discourse…the civilizing role of Europe into the rest of the (colonized) world...And today, even the colonial notions about an Indo-Aryan “conquest” are deeply questioned, the idea of the “heroic white people” taking control of Europe in a great epic saga, ahhhh, a beautiful story.

We have seen that the quillons turned toward the blade is a centuries old use among the Oriental peoples, and that the strongly downcurved quillons were used first (before the Portuguese or the Spanish peoples) by the Berbers, at least from the 13th Century, if not before. The fighting jineta sword illustrated above is from this century, and Ibrahiim also posted a picture showing that it is the older jineta already found (re: post #27, the Sangueza sword). And why the falcata is a Lusitania sword? As far I know, it is a Celtic-Iberian weapon, and the notion of “Portugal” or “Spain” did not exist in that time. Numerous findings of falcatas with horse-head hilts were also made in the actual territory of Spain.

In the 16th Century those swords were buried for more than 1,300 years, and the Portuguese even didn´t know them, maybe until the 19th or 20th Century, when archaeological discoveries bring them to the modern knowledge.

Berber or Moor raids into the Iberic Penisula were known at least from the roman times, but no evidence of those horse-head hilts is found in the pre-nimcha period in North Africa for more than a thousand years. But the use of animal headed hilts was common in this period in the Orient and surely the head of a horse was not an unknown feature among the cavalry-oriented Berbers.

This quote seems Portuguese-biased, who is the author? I have seem similar statements in Portuguese web sites. Very nationalistic. And why the knuckleguard would be influence of the Portuguese? Contrary to the Spanish, they didn’t have presence in North Africa in this century. In the 16th Century the Portuguese invasions to Morocco were defeated repeatedly by the Saadis, which also defeated the Ottoman intents. At the end of the 16th Century, Portugal became a Spanish dominion.

I lack of bibliography on Portuguese swords. I would like to see those with knuckleguards from the first half of the 16th Century, could you provide some examples?

Well, for one thing, I do not believe the pictured sword is Moroccan. I believe it is actually from East Africa, possibly Zanzibar. There was of course, significant Portuguese presence there, even more so than Morocco.

Since the description starts with an error in the attribution, it is kind of hard to accept the conclusions of the author without questioning them. That being said, the European influence is undeniable - the ring guard for example.

As for the dragon quillons on Ceylonese swords, one has to be careful prior to jumping to conclusions. I am attaching a picture of a Timurid (pre 1500) Central Asian nephrite sword guard from the Met collections. The kastane guard therefore could be Asian, and not European inspired.

I don't think i (after the author) said the Benin sword has anything to do with the Kastane. It would be more plausible to assume that, while the Portuguese wandered around Benin lands, they brought this sword directly to their homeland. ... don't ask me how they have acquired it.
It was in a different approach that i mentioned his statement that the down curved arms in the Kastane were of Portuguese influence, this obviously not referring to the whole sword. Actually, in the various pictures he shows of these swords from his collection in his book, he always tags them as Cingalese. But it is equally true his statement that also their ricasso shows Portuguese influence ... for what is worth.

Sostenga sus caballos, Gonzalo :rolleyes:
The issue here is not such passionate angle of political influences, even if ancestral ones but, instead, questioning the plausibility of authors (and collectors and others) statements on determined swords provenances and their influence in shape throughout ages and peoples.

So true ... this not meaning that another people other than the one who first put up an implement, may adopt it, strictly or modified, and take it somewhere else, causing a new wave of influence. There even are records of such happenings, namely the case of ship cannon port holes, breech loading 'berços' cast system and other stuff ... what do i know?.

And why need to ask ? We all know that such attribution is not correct; only in strict terms, that not in the ample reach of geographich context.
I just wonder how the author of such statement isn't also aware of that. But if he was, we wouldn't be here analizing such implausibilty ... although not one of the more screaming.

Although not at all a scholar, i have had my dosis of search on the so called Falcata Iberica, called Machaera Hispania by the Romans (as cited by Homero), and potentially descendent of the Helenic Kopis.
By the away, you are surely aware that the name Falcata was ony attributed in the XIX century. What it is not known, according to experts, is how Lusitanians called this sword... but this doesn't mean that they didn't used it. On the contrary, if Celtiberians made them (or copied them), we may realize that they passed on to their following breeds. It is not because early examples were recently found that original models didn't have their inheritance and evolution throughout time.

But 'soon' came the concept of Roman "Hispania", as they called the whole Peninsula; Portugal came much later indeed.

Horse head, bird head, undetermined grip, 'rectangular' grip without head ... Not only in Spain but in the whole Peninsula; there are currently dozens of sites with an excavated panoplia of these weapons and their paralel tipologies; i have seen (and saved) papers with enlightening charts.
... And i happen to have been offered a catalogue of a collection auctioned in 2003 with an outstanding set of these swords in exceptional conditions.

The mentioned term was Lusitanian, not Portuguese... which makes a difference ;) .

There you go again. The author is not even Portuguese ...although he belongs in a family that has been in Portugal for almost three centuries. He certainly exacerbates on the Portuguese theme; but let it be his problem; we don't have to buy it, though.
Nevertheless this Gentleman holds in fact one of the largest collections of early weapons and tons of documentation mainly directed to the Indian route and discoveries period.

A fair point of view but, still only in the coast, as anyway Portuguese never had enough military contingents to impose presence in the interior, either in Africa or elsewhere, they built and inhabited fortifications in over half dozen spots in the Moroccan coast during some three centuries, which in any case is also a presence; enough for both cultures ending up 'contaminating' eachother ... at least potentially; one has to go out to the village for groceries and bring with him some local gadgets ... or eventually engage in battle and capture or let capture one or two weapons. Isn't that also how these things happen ? :shrug: .

... Which ended mid XVII century. But that was more of a monarchic issue; i don't think the Spaniards came over en masse. Notwithstanding cultural exhange already existed ... except for navigation and discoveries classified information, as often mentioned in chronicles ;) .

Apart from the book i have been quoting, HOMENS ESPADAS E TOMATES, which is not only about such swords, and with all possible tagging implausibilities, i only know of another one called AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES by Eduardo Nobre, where also attributions may be discussable, on what touches the origin of swords being either Portuguese or Spanish; a common imprecision due to both countries interculture, namely or specially on what touches these weapons. That's why some authors prefer to attribute these swords the title of Iberian.
If you browse the search button of the forum under AS ARMAS E OS BARÕES it could be that you find a few pictures i posted of Eduardo Nobre's collection with contextual detail references.
... Plus the details i have already passed you on my half dozen examples. Did i also pass you their pictures ?


.

It all appoints to my eyes that, Captain (Pinhão?) is holding a military Portuguese sword. Some 'hollow' in the upper section of the guard in the faded carving (or picture), impedes to even guess it is a military cup hilted one.


-

Only wanted to expose the motive behind the attributions, as not beign technical or objetive.



That is correct. It is what I have been saying about this evolution.




Agree. M. Fulgosio invented the name in 1872. Of course, also Lusitanians used the falcata. Though I am more adept to the explanation about their origin given by Fernando Quesada Sanz in his book on the subject. I personally don't believe in the Greek origin.


What I meant is that the modern notions of nation-state or country are a recent invention, and we can not circumscribe many phenomena exclusively to a single specific country because they ocurred on an area actually occupied for more than one country. I know that in many ways the Portuguese and the Spanish are literally brothers sharing a common culture.



I am happy for you!!! I never thought that you were ignorant on this matter, neither tried to imply it. If I gave you this impression, please accept my apologies.
I only have the book from Quesada and some articles. You should share!! :) :)




What I meant is not that the Lusitanians didn't use or had knowledge of the falcatas, but that the Portuguese in the 16th Century didn't even know the falcatas, since they were buried for more than 1,300 years. So, how it was possible that the hilt features of the falcatas were passed by the Portuguese to North Africa in the 16th Century or the 17th-18th Century!!!


The bias is obvious. For the sake of objetive knowledge, any bias should be placed in evidence. It is part of a search for a truer knowledge. I am aware of the contributions of people who has preserved weapons and documents, but their explanations should be reexamined under the light of new discoveries, studies and a more scientific approach. As our own explanations. I constantly modify my own points of view, as I learn more. And I have so much to learn!!!


It could be. Possibly, but not probably, since other factors and the cultural background in Africa makes more probably the other explanation.


Agreed. But the Spanish had a greater presence in that area, thus making more probable the influences passing through them. Instead, the Portuguese had greater presence in more suthern parts of West Africa, the Indian Ocean, India and Indonesia. They were by far greater navigators than the Spaniards.



Thank you for the references. I have Hombres, Espadas y Tomates (only text, no images), but not the other book. As you know, I was absent from the forum and many interesting threads are unknown to me. I will search inmediately. But of what pictures are you talking about? Do you mean the photos from the book above and from Antonio's Page?

Un abrazo

Details from photos of paintings of Nuno Gonçalves (court Portuguese painter, 15th Century). The swords seem more akin to the Spanish ones. I wonder if the black sword, more differentiated, was exclusive of the colonial enterprise. Or if the differences were because one was a dressing sword and the other a fighting sword, or just because one evolved in time into the other. The details come from the portrait of Saint Paul and the Saint Vincent Panels:

Another detail:

:shrug:

Yes indeed however the sword I bring notice to is lying on the ground straddled by the Portuguese Officer but I welcome your remark upon the Portuguese weapon. Regarding the other sword ...on the ground... which is I suggest the battle version of the KASTANE though without quilons and with a straight guard and no knuckleguard ; a few points.

My question to you is why would a battlefield weapon, then, have the style of quilon seen in later Kastane? ...Swords which were clearly weak bladed and which had no fighting practicality but were in fact badge of office tokens... or Icons awash with Buddhist designs..

Surely a religious Icon like the hilt, the peacock tail rain-guard, the other zoomorphic creatures and the very important religious architecture of the misnomered "quilons" or thunderbolts..."the Vajra" ...be placed on a battlesword when they were so revered in Buddhism from the very beginning... The Great Buddha himself carried the Vajra to Tibet; It would not be placed on a blade...on a battlesword... Thus I point to the Kastane Quilons in the bling badge of office version as misplaced and misnamed by European experts ...but very real as religious architecture.

To be precise I would have to show an earlier Tibettan sword with Vajra Quilon architecture illustrating my point.

For that I refer to the Boston Museum of Fine Art for the 14th Century Khadya Tibetto-Chinese sword with Vajra styled Quilons acting as they are designed ... as thunderbolts ...and in the pure sense as religious Icons.

Please see http://sword-site.com/thread/1018/tibetan-sword-khadya

See also http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680 where I have updated details in that thread and for comments.

and below with a reminder of the Vajra cutting device added;

But now, this more military-style men carry the more classic black swords (same panel):

Salaams TVV SEE #53. Indeed it is not Moroccan, but Zanzibari yes. As noted in #53.
Regarding hilts please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...680#post218680

and the post I have just completed at # 67 above.

In reference to the hilt, guard, quilons and rainguard ... In fact the entire hilt and all of the Deities ...This is a purely Buddhist inspired item. but you could argue some likeness in the shape of the knuckle guard although others could counter it was simply parallel development ...I could live with similarities in the guard and of course the blades may be European but the rest of the sword is Sri Lankan with heavy notes of Buddhism in the hilt.

The sword basic form is Benin African tribal see below and at http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ul...c;f=8;t=008949 probably with a Storta hilt... I can see how this may have been rehilted by the Portuguese dominant in the region but I think it premature to link the hilt with the Sri Lankan examples on Kastanes... On your reference this is a European Lion.

Benin Sword below.

I think we are disgressing too much from the subject, which is the possible relation among the jineta-nimcha-kattara, which bring us to the evolution of their hilts. The Portuguese and Spanish swords from the 15th Century and their parallelism, of course, are a related matter to the jineta.

This is a Forum. Consider the size of the problem with this swords movement and morphology across the globe at a time of great upheaval and exploration... It must have affected 100 countries and continued to do so for generations. I focus on some unanswered sectors like Kastane and the idiosyncrasies of Nimcha. They and many other swords are possibly related. Others in the discussion have no problem dealing with this... it is often what transpires ... a multi faceted approach. Personally I feel the position is good as the answers largely monitored by a senior staff member of considerable experience in this field is going well and he has no problem dealing with two directions simultaneously.

The complexity is fascinating in this regard but the thread title may throw some... There is no need to consider Kattarra as it is not in the mix... however, that is only a suggestion lest you think I am leading the thread ! It will go where it goes... and I see no reason to change my own track... but you can do what you like...I learn a lot from the added focus upon Spanish and Portuguese links and it can be seen I have placed serious input from the Italian direction and naturally the Indian Ocean which is only half an hour away!

I believe more in free association of ideas rather than getting hung up on strict references because more astute contributors than you or I will drive a bus through that lot :) as you may have already discovered.

This article i have by Leandro Saudan Tristão is largely supported by Quesada Sainz works. I have not read of any evidence other than that of his Greek origin theory. He is so keen in illustrating Greeks handling Kopides and mentioning their introduction in the Iberian Peninsula (V AC), brought by mercenaries who have participated in the Sicilian wars. But of course i don't make a case, my knowledge is residual.


No, you didn't imply a thing; in any case i am infinitely far from having your luggage.

Try https://run.unl.pt/bitstream/10362/7...insular%20.pdf.



Oh ...did i say that ? :confused: :o

If i agree with that, i will be accused of nationalism :eek: .


So you don't have the book; apart from all fantasy contained in the tales and doubts on weapon's attributions, it is an excelent work.

Pictures i post now and then in context with topics. Just patiently browse on the book i mentioned or on his author's name, Antonio Nobre; this is one of such threads:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=eduardo+nobre.

I don't recall which swords Antonio had in his page; maybe some are similar (not the same) but, as far as remember, there was no detail on the pictures.


.HEREHERE HEREHERE

I have been through this one in the forum; a good realistic evidence on the period swords. Actually i have a set of bronze medals representing this six panel set. But ... sorry my curiosty ... why do you keep calling them black swords ? That was an episode occurred on a particular shipment context; not the typologic name of these swords; unless i am missing something...

My bad. Up to now i never focused on the swords of this carving as the other time we discussed it was to try and dechipher the text it contains, with an unsuccessful result, though. As for the sword on the ground, i wouldn't know what it is; although i would venture what it is not; a Kastane ... and neither the often cited (in Portuguese chronicles) Calachurro, that used by Lascarins with a length visibly shorter than the one depicted. Bt let me no decisive on the subject,

Benin origin as said by the author. My imagination drives me to realize that, following the practice had with the ivory and bronze objects from Benin, seen in the best musems out there ( Met ... British ...), in that those speechless artifacts were ordered by Portuguese navigators to bring home to those interested noble and wealthy, it could well be that such sword blade was hilted (not necessarily rehilted) by a local smith under Portuguese 'customer' instrutions and the setup brought directly home. I fail to see the logic of the loop Around Ceilão, as suggeste by the author/owner. The face of a Portuguese in the bridge is rather plausible, as entire Portuguese soldiers, with crossbow, musket and all, were featured in bronze miniatures and ivory salt cellars.
But an European Lion ... i never thought of that :shrug:

Don't be so concerned, Gonzalo. If there is someone to be flogged, let it be me. Falcatas are also not in the jinet-nimcha-kattara diet ... and besides, i already made a repair of this hijacking to the thread author (post #2). We may be diverting, but not trespassing the frontiers of what is reasonable ... i hope :cool:.

Let us all hold our horses, Ibrahiim !!!

Quesada mention another origin, based on a Italian-Mediterranean model, anthough he analyses the Greek hypothesis. Please see Fernando Quesada Sanz, Arma y Símbolo: La Falcata Ibérica, Instituto Alicantino de Cultura Juan Gil-Albert, España, 1992. I have only a photocopy that a friend from Spain sent me. You can also download this two pdf's by Quesada Sanz:

En Torno al Orígen y Procedencia de la Falcata Ibérica

Máchaira, Kopis, Falcata



No, you didn't. The author you quoted did, or at least, implied it.



Without any reason. It is well known that the mayor sea explorations of the Spaniards were actually carried by Genoese and Portuguese capitains, re: Colón and Fernão de Magalhães. And Magalhães made the first trip around the whole world, despite the mutinous Spaniards, who were afraid. Just as with Colón. To be more precise Elcano had to finish the exploration, since Magalhães died, but the voyage was his.



That is correct, I don't have it. During my Internet black-out I lost the opportunity to download several books...as Oswaldo Lamartine's.



Discoveries Swords

And thank you very much for your link. A succulent text.

Regards

They are, since we analyze the possible influence of the falcata on the equine form of the nimcha hilt.