Fernando after I did give you an price about the peduang I did get an mail that you are out of it .
Is it that you only want to now prices or want to buy seriuos an outstanding weapon.


Ben

... In exchange for a more inoquous forum :shrug:
Fernando

Precisely Ben, you are giving me all the reason :eek: . If you had posted its price in the first place, i wouldn't have to ask you for it ... as i wouldn't need to get out, because i wouldn't have even got in; that price was far beyond my whilling to pay for it.
Sorry, but that thing of you naming your stuff as outstanding, sounds a bit commercial :shrug:
All the best
Fernando

Outstanding was the right worth show me an second one that ever get to the market with the provonance etc like this one .

This has nothing to do with comercial it looks you don't now the market price
for items like this ,there is nothing wrong with that .

And looking for an bargain also nothing wrong with that .

But don't tell people that they have to price their stuff if they don't want to .

all the best
Ben

Take a deep breath, folks! ;)

I can understand both sides of the argument. Seems like there are pro and cons for both positions and it may be wise just to agree to disagree rather than trying to "win"...

I've found all members - regardless of selling/swapping/buying preferences - nice to work with and made quite a few friends. I do hope these positive experiences will continue! I also offer additional info on pieces in the swap forum (something I'd never do on ebay or other auction sites/houses!).

Regards,
Kai

Ben

That is why you should post prices up front. Let say you put a 750Euro price on an item then members would gauge if they can afford it without having to email you for the same price. I really don't understand why you are getting so upset at this reasonable idea. When I go to a gun show dealers have prices listed for a item they want to sell. When I go out to eat the menu has prices for each entree. So why not post prices up front? If you have a set price in mind that you will feel comfortable with just post it. Btw your comment about Fernando was really not called for. If any of us need to know prices I am sure we know enough people in the collecting community to ask for advise.



Lew

Hi Lew it is difficult eating an peduang .

And the swap forum is no gunshow.


Ben

[QUOTE=Dajak]Hi Lew it is difficult eating an peduang .

And the swap forum is no gunshow.

Ben

You just don't get it. :shrug:


Lew

Just My Thoughts
 

Here's how I feel; I apologize if anyone takes offense; it is not meant .

I have a problem with viewing Swap as a 'strictly commercial' zone of these forums .

I don't think forums should be in the business of providing venues for dealers .

Let's please keep it civil Gentlemen . :(

Ben

I'm sure you have a very good idea who in this forum collects your style of weapons and who from your past business dealings with can afford to by them and not waste your time with fruitless emails. So my solution is since you have so many wonderful pieces you should just send out a private listing to those members and not bother doing a general posting. That way no one's feelings will be hurt when they ask or send you an offer they think is reasonable or affordable and you turn them down.

Lew

Fernando, this is the most ridiculous comment one can come up with when talking about ANY antiques (I am sorry - I am saying it in a friendly way). I am sure some people do it - and this is their choice, but believe me - it's amature and very low grade. No serious antique collector, dealer or intelligent seller volunteer their cost. It is mostly used to trick a buyer as to saying "look, I am doing you a favor by selling with such a low profit", and it always irritates me. The market and individual interests should dictate the price, not what the seller paid for it! Economics 101 (and little common sense):-)
this is why I'd not put it for sale here (regretfully), I'll take it to an auction and let the market decide the price, not politics:-)

Alex/Ben

I am on a friendly basis with many of the members of this forum and feel like we are a band of brothers here and many times I have sold items at or below my cost because I am looking to buy something new or I have lost interest in a certain ethnographic area and I am just looking to sell off what I no longer have interest in. I don't think any member should be using the forum solely as a profit outlet. So please if a member has an item and he does not want to put up the price up front they should send out private emails to the people they think will want to buy it and sell it that way without involving the forum. I feel the mission of this forum is the persuit of knowledge not profit.

Lew

Gentlemen,

Let's calm down.

First, let us remember that participation in this forums is a privilege. So is advertising in the swap forum, and currently it is a free service available to all members. Eventually, it is up to the people who created this on-line place, who pay for its hosting and who invest time and effort into maintaining it to decide what the purpose of the swap forum is and therefore what the rules, including the rules in the swap section, should be.

In light of the above, I do not consider this thread a popular vote, and I hope that my participation here is not going to be misconstrued as taking one side or another. It is a mere point of view. And in my point of view, it is only reasonable that different people have a different approach to selling (or buying) an item. I understand the concern that some members may use the forum in an attempt to get a profit. It is only rational human behaviour though. Let's say that someone posts an item, but no price, in hopes of getting an offer that exceeds this person's wildest dreams. Then let's say such an offer is actually presented. In the end, both parties will likely be happy, because the buyer would have acquired the item at an amount proposed and thus perfectly acceptable by the buyer, and the seller will get more than expected. Perhaps the buyer would have over-paid for the item, but this was the buyer's decision, which he was not tricked into. And also, collecting is an irrational hobbi, and prices are determined based on too many subjective factors, so it is perfectly possible for an item to be worth more to one person than to anyone else. On top of this, most of the items we collect, are more or less unique.

I also prefer seeing a posted price, because when I shop I like to compare my options. However, sellers also want to have options to compare.

With this in mind, let me just point out that I would be happy whatever the final decision is, as long as we are able to keep this privilege of the swap forum and it is not taken away from us. Seeing the way the discussion is going, I am starting to get worried that the swap forum might be closed altogether.

Hi,
I don't understand why some sellers are so coy about posting the price they want for a particular item, if they are knowledgeable enough then they will know the true value of their goods. Maybe they should take into account that potential buyers may not be comfortable with making an offer on an item that they are not totally familiar with. Remember a buyer neither wishes to appear ignorant or insulting by offering a price that is too low but then again is understandingly reticent in offering a price that may be over the right and proper market value. I don't think any Forum members would knowingly take advantage of another in either direction. The price a seller originally paid for an item has absolutely no bearing on subsequent sales, the marketplace is full of swings and roundabouts. What's wrong with a guide price, something the seller would be more than happy with and take it from there, haggling is an ancient and respectable method of reaching a price that both parties find acceptable.
Regards,
Norman.

Gentlemen, this thread is strictly for input from members; no vote at all will be taken from the results . :)

Some of you may be aware that as well as being a collector, I also deal.

The ways in which I sell depend upon the item that I wish to sell.

Perhaps half of what I sell is listed in a periodic catalogue with a fixed price. The items in the catalogues are are all relatively low cost items for which I can determine a fair market value.

Most of the items that I sell that are not listed in catalogues, are sold to people whom I know, or who contact me, and who want something "special".

These "special" sales often involve a lot more effort on my part than the catalogue sales, because I need to research the market in order to determine what is a fair price. I do have a lot of very good contacts, which makes this easier, but even so, and even with my experience, it is not always easy to fix that "fair market price"---and the price must be fair, because if it is not , if I fix too high a price, it can adversely effect my reputation.

For some things I cannot take into consideration my purchase cost, because the purchase may have occurred more than 50 years ago, when I began to collect, or the item being sold might have come from my grandfather, who may have purchased it prior to 1920.

However, some of the things that I sell carry values that are far, far too high to be listed in catalogues, and for which there are only a very few buyers across the entire world. One way to sell this type of thing is to place it with a reputable auctioneer. However, since I live in Australia, that auctioneer would need to be (probably) in Europe.Then there are the fees attached to a conventional auction process, and these fees simply drive the reserve price higher than it need be.

To my mind, there is only one civilised way to sell an item of this type, and it is to engage in negotiation with the potential buyer.

One way to engage in negotiation with a potential buyer is to invite offers. This is a legitimate way to sell something, and is effectively no different from a tendering process, a process that is frequently used for sale of real estate, and for sale of goods or services to large organisations.

In my opinion the invitation of an offer to purchase is just as legitimate a way to exchange ownership rights in goods as is an offer to sell for a named price. Both methods are equally legitimate, both have their points of strength, and both have their points of weakness.

The Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum is effectively a big club. The relationships that exist between members of this "club", are not unlike the relationships that exist between members of any other club.

In a real-life club in any sphere of collecting the members will often carry out profitless exchanges that are based on many things other than the value of the items exchanged.Similarly, they will often sell for the same price at which they purchased, perhaps many years ago.

However, these below market value sales, and "even value" swaps will only be made between fellow collectors. If a dealer comes on the scene, the item will be sold for market value.

It is obvious that the only way in which a seller can maintain control over who he wishes to sell to, in an online swap venue, as opposed to a real-life swap venue, is to invite offers.The seller can then accept the offer of the person he wishes to sell to, perhaps incorporating a true swap, as a part of the deal.

The invitation of offers to purchase is to my mind a legitimate practice, and rather than one lacking integrity, it provides a way to preserve the integrity of the ideals of pure collecting.

However, what I consider to have no place at all in swap forum is the placement of advertisements by known dealers. I feel that this practice destroys the basic purpose of the swap forum, and should be banned.

If dealers wish to advertise in a forum having the nature of The Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum, I believe a separate venue should be made available for them, and they should pay a fee for the privilege of lodging advertisements there.

I am a dealer and collector. Generally I do not advertise on the forum unless I have a few items on ebay that I think members would be interested in and just give a link. Otherwise it is a few odd pieces I generally respond on this forum for fun more than anything else. Yes I learn some things and hopefully sometimes teach. I personally do not like give me a offer routine, but I do use it on online auctions and if it is in the ball park will generally except the offer. These weapons often get into large money amounts and to dismiss this is foolish. The borderline between dealer and collector is often fuzzy.

I should thank you for your opinion, Alex, once you consider it a friendly one :rolleyes:
You might either find my coment ridiculous, as a result of having reasoning over it, or just call it so, as a reaction, which is a different thing; or you just didn't get my point, due to my poor english.
I was only trying to remind you that you were demonstrating a recipee vocationed to profit speculation, and not at all an intention to let go something without loosing the money you invested plus the costs involved in its timely maintainance, inflation and that kind of eventual added values.
It is realy hard to exchange opinnions with someone who atributes a marketing identity to the articles they want to sell, as their intention is not to pass the said article on to the next guy for collecting reasons, but indeed a purpose of making good money with it ... eventually including to buy the thing in the first place with the idea to sell it, and never to keep it.
I don't think anybody is considering that being a dealer is wrong, for what matters; what could be wrong and is (i think) under discussion is the place where dealers want to exercize their skills ... like in this comunity swap forum.
Fernando.

Very wise and well said, Alan !

Yes, the "market approach" has some profit orientation, but, unless we're trying to build a utopia society here, this is how a healthy economy works. Someone mentioned "Real Estate" before; what they ignore is the fact that 90% of homes were selling for more than the asking price just 5 years ago during the sellers market, and higher offers were a normal practice considering the market conditions, i.e. supply/demand ratio. I understand we're dealing with our hobbies and passions, not real estate, but we still use money, and most sell something to upgrade or modify their collections, i.e. buy something else, preferably better. I personally would love to see more high quality items being offered for sale/trade here, but the notion of "not for profit swap" drives many away to offer their items elsewhere.

Well, i would say that both sides of the room are taking their argument to unintended extremes. Alex, i don't think anyone here is suggesting a not-for-profit swap forum. Nor do i think that invitations to make an offer is not a legitimate practice for sale.
What is really at the core of this discussion is what is the original intent of the swap and what has it become. It is clear to me that the swap forum is continually abused by dealers who are members of these forums primarily to sell their wares to our members. We all know who these dealers are and just to reinforce their lack of interest in this forum at large they are not the members who we find in discussion of this matter in this thread. I personally find these dealer-only members a great annoyance. Unfortunately the rules as they stand allow a loophole for their continued practice here.
Personally i don't care if a member here asks for offers on a piece. I am more than likely not going to participate in such a silent auction and from the responses on this thread it would seem that most other members would choose not to make an offer as well. Still it is the seller's choice at this point in time to do so. The evidence seems to point to the fact that they will indeed get less interested parties than if they posted a price, but hey, that would be the seller's loss i think. However, if eliminating this practice would help to rid us of the dealer-only members who abuse our swap forum i might be for it.
A Rick has pointed out, we are not tallying votes from the membership here.
This is just a discussion. I will say that if you gentlemen can't keep this discussion civil than i would rather see the swap forum disappear altogether. It is secondary, by a long shot, to the intention and purpose of these forums. If people are going to fight about it it is better off gone.

Lew don't tell me what I have to do I am not your son .


Ben

Let the people decide what they want to do you don't need to decide for them .


Ben

Ben

It was a constructive suggestion and your previous comment was uncalled for. You making this into a personal issue and it's not.


Lew

Your statement gives me some confort, for i am glad i'm not alone in that issue.
Fernando

Fernando

I collect just for the joy of collecting it is one of my true passions in my life.

Lew

This says solution not suggestion a way different or do I see this wrong



I really don t need your solution on what I do or not Lew I tougth I made this clear .



I think everyone has to be free in his choice with or with out price that is my point .


And I not intend to take things personal to anyone but it is only my reaction what I think .

I don't think it is normall to put anyone your will on that he has it to do the way you want and nothing else .

It is an free world . (at least overhere in the Netherlands)


It also would hurt people if they see an nice weapon that priced 10,000.00
and they see it sold in 2 days.


Ben

I've already stated my personal preference for seeing prices on Swap listings. That said, I don't think making a forum rule concerning how individuals can sell or trade is a good idea; the spectrum of possibilities makes it rather unenforcible anyway. And I'm sure there are less experienced sellers out there who would benefit from the offering process in the same way that inexperienced buyers would benefit from seeing prices of past sales.

However, I'd like to put out a few suggestions that may alleviate some transparency concerns while still maintaining fair value for the seller, and also may attract buyers like myself that shy away from the offering process. While it is often unclear what the market value is of a piece, normally someone selling an item has either a price below which they would not sell, or a price which they would take regardless of what they can get. In the former, a statement such as "accepting offers above $X.XX" would both preserve the ability to go higher and also give forumites an order of magnitude estimate of the value of the piece. Even auctions have an opening bid. In the latter, starting with a very high price and including the "or best offer" tag would serve a similar role.

Finally for those members who are interested in furthering the education of their fellow forumites, it would be nice if the final price of the sale were posted, although of course not necessarily the person who bought it.

Just my thoughts,

--Radleigh

I have been following this with interest...

When I first joined the forum, the swap area had mostly swops and items that were priced. This to me 'upheld' the aims of the forum, to learn, to educate within a community of 'like minded' individuals. By swopping it showed trust, helpfulness and comradery ...afterall it would be very unlikely that the financial value of the pieces swopped would be identical and aided the collections of those members. When items are priced ...it educates us as to the market values of such items and increases our knowledge as to what is reasonable amount to pay for our 'beloved' sharp, pointy things.

Now it is rare to see stated prices, this 'smacks' of commercialism, selling weapons to a 'captive' market at no cost to the seller. This does not benefit the 'community' as a whole....the only beneficary is the seller, whom can increase his profit with this 'closed auction' system.

If a seller is using the swop forum to make profit, that is fine, but state the price. If you are not prepared to list a price or 'offers in the region of' then use EBAY.

This is my opinion of the overall situation, it is not aimed at anyone individually.

Kind Regards David

It also would hurt people if they see an nice weapon that priced 10,000.00
and they see it sold in 2 days.


Ben[/QUOTE]


Ben

It would not hurt me at all I am quite aware of what I can afford to spend on an item so if someone with deep pockets buys it good for them and I hope they are happy with there purchase. At the Timonium auction this past March many swords went for over 25,000 USD and that is fine with me I did not loose any sleep over it. :)

Lew

Ditto Lew; I see stuff sold on for sale sites and Ebay everyday I can't afford. Some of it, I wouldn't want to spend that price even if I could. Doesn't mean it isn't worth what was paid for it to the seller or to the buyer, just that I have no interest in being a part of that particular market.

We not on ebay overhere



Ben

All the more reason why one could expect to see higher prices here, and not be "hurt"

Hi,
To possibly satisfy all parties why not have an " Offers Over " system as advocated by Radleigh, e.g. an item is advertised at Offers Over a price selected by the seller, those who are interested will know roughly what kind of price is anticipated and can offer what they want over that price, the seller can either accept immediately or set a closing date for offers i.e. a date after which no more offers are sought, and then decide which offer to accept on the proviso of course that they, the seller, is not obliged to accept the highest or indeed any offer. This is still a form of closed auction but is has been the way Scottish real estate has been sold for a very long time and seems to work well for both buyer and seller. In the case of property, of course, most people would seek independent 'expert' advice on price.
Regards,
Norman.

I have no authority as a moderator in this particular forum....but i do have some close friends who do. ;)
I strongly suggest that this conversation gets civil fast or this topic might very well become one that you might only be able to discuss one-to-one in PMs. :eek:

I don't think it is so dificult to separate the waters.
After all, it is all a question of good faith. We all (i mean all) know the purpose this comunity.
It is a common event to post a piece in the main discussion Forum, to ask the opinnion of members, eventually from those more qualified in the said piece. Within the same logic, one can post a piece in the swap Forum with the intention to ask the members how much that piece is worth, according to their experience and different geographic situation ... prices are not the same in the various countries, or market areas.
This also doesn't impeach one to decide to sell the said piece, after having made such consultation.
Other than that, i don't think is reasonable to come around with articles for commercial purposes, one after the other, and instigate the members to make offers, on a permanent basis. By mentioning the term offers i am not intending to individualize the issue; i could as well mention other kind of unorthodox procedures, considering a place where profit stands ( or should stand) in the end of the priorities queue.
It's the doing this by system that is at question, not a sporadic attitude.
This to say that rules aren't necessarily what is needed here, but moderation instead. Moderators are there to diagnosis vicious processes and intervene by calling this or that person's attention with injections of common sense.
One thing is inequivocous and of general agreement; the Forum is not a business place. One can be a buyer, a seller, a non buyer or a non seller.
We all surely know in which waters we are sailing, when we come in here.
With all respect, Gentlemen
Fernando

David,

I do agree with you.

Gentlemen, C'est le ton qui fait la musique!! No offense, but some members do pick the wrong string. That kind of music doesn't sound very nice.

That we act like little children while collecting, ok!! But not when we are discussing on this sophisticated forum.

It looks that some peopke get hurt with no price on it .


Ben

My Items are for sale or trade so you don't need money to get an Item from me .


Ben

Sorry Ben, i am not adressing you in particular ... you don't need bother replying.
I wish you all the best
Met vriendelijke groeten
Fernando

Like David and some others, I am concerned about the tone of this thread. It seems obvious that some sellers do not want to post prices. I doubt that any amount of argument will change their minds, and, truthfully it is their prerogative NOT to post prices and just ask for offers.

Personally I do not make offers unless there is a stated price, then, I may ask for maybe a 10% discount. This is my prerogative, my right.

I had a bad experience with a dealer. Not anyone who advertises here. I find it foolish that this dealer chose to antagonize someone who buys as many high end expensive pieces as I do. But he did. His mistake. I will not buy from him again. I do not make offers. But this is just me, because I had a bad experience with one person.

I see no reason as to why a seller has a "make offers", BUT if that is how they want to handle their business, that is up to them. Their right, and I think it is very much amiss (and against the overall tone of this fine Forum) that these sellers be criticized for their business policy.

Obviously this method of sales works for them.

Personally as the original poster of this thread, I think it has said about all it needs to say -- and too much more -- and I would suggest that David and his friends close it.

80 posts on this subject are enough.