Is it Walrus on the left and African elephant on the right?
Josh

Jens ivory handled daggers
 

Hey Jens,

From my perspective the dagger on the left would be African elephant ivory and the dagger on the right Indian elephant ivory. would agree they are not walrus ivory as the do no have that "crystaline" appearance at all. Rather a smooth "woodlike' on the dagger grip scales to the left and a milk white appearance to the dagger grip scales on the right.

The use of walrus ivory is very much to the Persian taste. Then, there are exceptions to every rule...

rand

If only I knew enough to make a seperate thread worthwhile Rand. ;) I am just a student myself...

Much ivory coloring is just surface patina or induced through, age & dirt & sweat, tea, smoke ,chicory were often used to colour items or the Chinese favorite for turning it yellow is nose sweat!

Hard heavy white ivory of good quality came from Guinea, cameroons ,Gabon & the Congo. It is what many antique dealers refer to as Indian as it has the same percieved look and qualities of jungle dwelling Elephants of India & Burma. It is the favorite of Oriental carvers as it will polish like glass.

Soft ivory is sometimes veined with darker streaks & used to mainly come from Senegal,Ethiopia, Egypt, Sudan & Kenya. It was popular for Billiard balls & piano keys as it was easy to work.

ill have a look through my libary & notes & see what else I can find on the subject.

Spiral

Spiral, I have not as yet been able to ask someone about the ivory, but I have examined it myself, and i am sure that it is elephant ivory. You only had the picture. I have the item, and that makes a difference when it comes to judging the hilt. Any new things you can come up with about the ivory will be most appreciated, as I think what you have come up with yet is great.

Jens

I made no comment about yours nice looking knives Jen, :shrug: Just about ivory in general.


I can see the one on the top of the left one is probably Elephant, I cant see enough detail of one on the right to be sure but I think your probably correct. I couldnt be certan from those pix, so I passed no comment.

The end grain should show intersecting diagonaly curved lines under a lens if Elephant or mammoth.

And changing stripes of refraced light on the long gain if turned fore & aft in sunlight.

cheers,

Spiral

Elephant Ivory
 

Hi all, just got back from the dealer in hilt material ( Mother of Pearl Company ) and the dagger was inspected by two of the folks there, and was told it was Elephant Ivory. The folks there could not tell me as to what country the Ivory came from but was in their their judgment Elephant Ivory' they showed me the fine cross hatch grain in the "wings of the hilt..

What makes all of this so interesting to me is that Rand, and Jens told me what it was and did not have the dagger to hold/look at. Could of saved a trip :)
Gene

Of course other than Elephant or Mamoth ivory the only other thing it could be is plastic! Which is common on old European knives but not Indo/persian etc. {Well till the fakers start doing that!]


The alternate grain is visible in your picture here. ;)



http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...id=22217&stc=1

I am sure between that & the cross hatching you will always identify it yourself in futre, rather than accepting what others say.

So your trip was worthwhile i think? knowledge is a great resource!

Spiral

Spiral, it is interesting that you mention mammoth ivory. Is there any difference between elephant and mammoth ivory, or are the both equal hard and with the same structure? Not that I think many of us will ever see a mammoth ivory hilted dagger, but just for the record.

Gene, I am sure you needed to come away from you computer for a while, and, like Spiral said, you learned something too:).

Its identifiably different Jens by the angles of intersection of the cross hatching. {Schreger lines.}

Usualy Elephant is nearer 90 degrees & mammoth nearer 115 degrees in the outer areas of tusk.

But if several angle measuments are taken of any ivory piece in questian all elephant samples have averages above 100 degrees, and all the extinct proboscideans or {mammoths}have angle averages below 100 degrees.

Also Siberian Mamoth ivory is heavier & harder than Elephant ivory. i dont know about other sources of mammoth but they I am aware they are not usualy of the high quality of the Siberian material.

I think Mammoth ivory has been used on South East Asian pieces before & there was also a big market in Europe in it pre. 1900 with parcels of up to 20 tons auctioned at a time in Liverpool ,Antwerp & London. So I expect it could turn up anywhere.

Spiral

Sorry for my lack of clarity Jens, The lots auctioned in Europe came from Siberia.

I havent seen it on Indian weapons but have heard of it used in the Malayan archipeligo. But others here would know more about that, I am sure.

i think lots is found in the North sea when drilling for oil etc but it is badly damaged, & discoloured some is found through out northen & eastern europe, & Alsaka as well. Others places to I expect.

But the good stuff is Siberian. it weights 20% to 30% more on average than Elephant.

Spiral

Knowledge
 

Spiral:
Sir, you are most correct, knowledge is a great power and you have supplied me with a lot of power from your excellent postings on Ivory. I did learn a lot from the hands on inspection from the handle material folks, but your posting were far more informative and technical. Showing me a picture I took and explaining what was in the picture. Information that I did not know was there, until you pointed it out, hard to believe!

Rand;
Thank you, as well, for the information about the material on my dagger handle, your "leaning" was right on. Do you think we could get Spiral to start a thread on his ivory knowledge, as you suggested? He said he is just learning about ivory, fine, I will take anything he offers. How about it Spiral, PLEASE!

Jens:
I do need to get out of the house occasionally ( not just to the doctors office! ) :p
Again you have helped me in my never ending quest for knowledge.
I have acquired the name of my dagger, how the little balls were placed in the hilt, and what they were for, what the handle material is, also where it was probably made. Not bad, not bad at all.
Only thing still unknown to me is what was the "smiley" for? :confused:

I think I/we have "beat" this dagger to death with all the information from all the good folks, posting, on this forum. It is always amazing, to me, the collective knowledge/power that is shown by the forum folks. It has been a great "ride" for me and I thank you one and all for it. :D
Gene.

Glad it was of some use Gene!

I think the total of my ivory knowledge is just about exhausted though., as I said I am just a mere student, 6 years ago I couldnt tell bone from Ivory. ;) :( so I set out to learn a little more than the often reapeted antique dealers old wives tales I kept hearing, that are sometimes so misleading. So I both read & also more importantly spoke to instrument makers who buy & use the various types every working day of there lives.

But thankyou for asking.I am flattered. :)

But sure after a little more research on my part perhaps I can add more of substance at a later date.

Spiral

There is one other note for the coloring of ivory. As Spiral says it depends on environment and one environmental factor is the amount of exposure to sulfur.

Sulfur is mostly what colors ivories. For example elephant ivories in the presence of sulfur will turn yellow to orange to brown. IT is always in the air, but heat will accelerate the chemical reaction as the ivories "breath" in the sulfur already in the air.

By the way, Jens I always love your pictures - and am insanely jealous. :o

I am not looking for trouble but
 

This is well handled white African ivory. Mangbetu/Zande - South Soudan, North East Congo.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/EEEEE060.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...y/EEEEE061.jpg

I have a vague remembrance about that the Moguls used Sulphur in the water to cool it (Beriner?) – did they?

Battara; Great information about Sulfur changing ivory yellow.
I know for a fact, unfortunately, that rubber bands have a lot of sulfur in them, and I assume all rubber products also has sulfur in them. The rubber bands were stored in a box with some of my old Silver coins and the coins turn black :eek:
Question, Battara, on this dagger as well as others daggers/knives that I have with ivory handles I use Renaissance Wax on them, will that protect them from the effects of ambient sulfur?
Gene

Here is some info on identifying ivory types.

http://www.asianartmall.com/schreger-lines.htm

First: Sorry about your coins. Sulfur also reacts with silver to make sulfur oxide on the silver - also known as tarnish. This also happens on copper to produce copper oxide which is green (and poisonous) (lots of copper in brass and bronze).

Second: Renaissance Wax will protect them since it seals the ivory (also wood, steel, etc.). A very good question. :)