These are great examples folks! Many thanks!

My favorite scabbards are the brass ones.

although not the bichaq type this dagger from 1890 is still part of the "Bosniaken" family and a little more luxurious (f.i. details on the ferrule and scabbard ).
It took 2 1/2 months to get from the good ol' U S of A to me ( in Europe).
April 12th to July 1st ... guess USPS used the Kon-Tiki :p
but ought to have waited 3 more days... ( 4th of ...) :)

and as uncle Battara likes his copper scabbard...
one is happy to oblige....! :shrug:

also nice to see is how they incorporated the top rivet nicely. Something you do not see with their bichaqs.

and as said, better and nicer work on the ferrule than the bichaqs

I can show this piece with a green coloured bone handle, total length with scabbard is 29cm:

Jim is wrong I am afraid to say and apologies as I overlooked this and never addressed this before.

Solar symbols would be heretical as first of all most of the makers were Muslims. Imagine using solar symbols in inquisitional Spain... the maker would end up on a pyre. Best to check the context of the folks living at that time... ;)

Being Muslim it was haram ( forbidden) to portray men hence they turned to mathematic symbols. Which resulted in most beautiful art as one still can see from Samarkand to Fez in architecture but also furniture, woven blankets, carpets, tiles, etc. Hence as well as decoration for weapons.


But they went also for their own roots: in the Middle Ages before the arrival of the Ottomans, Bosnia had their own church ( seperate from the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church). This Bosnian Church : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_Church
had and still has their tombstones all over the country.

The enclosed example is one of them and if you take out on leg of the cross, you have the circle with the symbol you often see as decoration on many of the better bichaqs.
As for the "cheaper" ones or the ones needed to be produced quickly... a dot in the circle would do. The same one can see in present day Baščaršija ( old market in Sarajevo's old ancient town center) People used and still do use just examples they had & have around them ( and Bosnia & Hercegovina is full of them)

Thanks for this very useful information GP ! My girlfriend is bidding on one that will be auctionned tomorrow (fingers crossed ! ;)) , so I'm sure she will be happy to have this at her disposal to read through !

je vous en prie / you're welcome !

are you sure....your girlfriend and a bichaq...? Mon Dieu.... what have you done ...?
time 4 U 2 call the guys from Patria Nostra (the Foreign Legion) and enlist ASAP!
Attention: the recruitment office is not in Marseille anymore but AUBAGNE
Allez, allez cher Amice....depechez Vous :D


Good luck at the auction !!!!


FYI: the picture is of a sapeur arriving in Paris for the Bastille Day parade, July 13th 1939

Actually GP, I will disagree with you on Bosnian Islam. There is a thing called "Folk Islam" just like "Folk Christianity". At one time up till even the Balkans wars in the 1990s, there were elements of old Christianity in several rural and semi-isolated areas that are officially Muslim. Folk Islam is even in Indonesia and the Philippines, as well as in other places. Officially yes the old forms are forbidden, but then again, you make note of the prohibition of the human form in Islamic art, yet we see a lot of human forms in Persian and Indian art. How may Persian khanjars have I seen with human figures carved into them? I also see similar issues with the human face in older Sulu Muslim art in the southern Philippines, where mixed in with the ukkil (vegetative motifs) is a human face.

All of this to say that I believe that these symbols could very well be old solar motifs but not mentioned or recognized as such. There are whole traditions of Folk Islam in Persian and other Shia groups (aka Assassin groups for example).

...

Sorry to say dear friend but whether you agree or not with me is irrelevant nor is your belief.

No offence intended but prior to replying and philosofing, why not first call or write an email to Sarajevo (university, museums, libraries) to deal with facts and be 100 % sure ?

They don't bite and speak & write English, German, French and many other languages, you know...

FYI: the National Museum of BiH releases publications and together with historians also books. Recently one on cold weapons, preceding, following, continuing, elaborating "Starinsko oružje" by Vejsil Curcic 1926.
Hence making all speculations superfluous. For now only in Bosnian though. That's true and makes it hard(er) but not impossible. But they answer me in English... :shrug: :)

back to the topic. Hereby an overview of several "f" marks.
Remarkable: one is "mirrored"; forgery or a left handed one ?
the latter actually not a correct custom in an Islamic country ...

and also the variety of writing "Sarajevo"and year

I personally think things are much more complex than that, and everyone is correct, at least to a degree.

The Muslim religion does not specifically forbid images of living things, but idolatry. Some interpretations of the Quran link images of living creatures with idolatry, hence why it is avoided, but there are exceptions. For example, there are a dragon and a phoenix on Sultan Suleyman I's famous yataghan, and monster (sometimes referred to as doplphin) heads on the scabbard chapes of thousands of yataghans from the 19th century. Obviously, any outright worshipping of the sun itself would be unacceptable.

An interpretation of the circle and dot motif in a Muslim context that I have seen is that it represents Allah, as the dot in the middle and his control over the universe, as the circle around him. Whether this is true or not I cannot tell, as only the artists who applied these symbols really knew their actual meaning.

However, often times a symbol will be repeated in folk art, its meaning and interpretation changing over time. Such symbols exist all over the world and predate Islam. The origin of the symbol is therefore most likely of a solar nature. After the Ottoman conquest of the Balkans and the conversion to Islam of certain parts of the population, its meaning may have been adapted to the new religion, while it remained in use in applied arts.

As for the three dot in a circle symbol, I will just point out that it was popular all over the Balkans, not just in Bosnia. In what is nowadays Bulgaria, it was used along with the single dot in a circle motif for decorating the hilts of shepherd's knives (or karakulaks), this particular type of knives referred to as "ashirtmaliya" (the word of Turkish origin meaning "decorated") in knife smith inventory books.

Quite some Bosnian bichaqs (especially the handles), are mostly inspired / derived from the yataghans by their makers.
Obviously from the pre Habsburg era, these examples were Ottoman yataghans.
Hereby enclosed an overview of the different types of yataghan handles

I recently purchased this one which :

- has not the typical circular and colored ornaments on the handle which can be found on the "Habsburgian Bosniaken" ones
- has all other criteria match and determine it as a Bosnian or at least a Balkan one I believe
- has a stamp on the blade which I have seen somewhere but can't recall where

unfortunately no scabbard though...

so kindly requested to assist as I am very much looking forward to your advice on its age, the stamp and if I am correct or mistaken concerning the origin, much obliged !


take care and stay healthy you all !

Gunar

I've got this bichaq today with the shamshir mark on its blade

Great examples and thank you GP for showing me those nicely worked brass scabbards and ferrules! One day when I grow up, I'll be able to replicate their quality of workmanship.

Congratulations Corrado26 on this new and nice piece.

The "f" marks I think are simplified mini-shamshirs being used as maker's marks.

TVV has a good point (every pun intended :D ) in that old symbols are given new meanings with the arrival of a new religion. We see this happening in the Ottoman empire, the Philippines, India, and Pakistan/Afghanistan, Morocco, and Sudan.

I have seen so far not another mark like this one. :confused:

Ooooo............that's interesting!

some further info on the Bosnian Bichaqs:

The handles are bone with ornamental inlay work of bronze and glazed ceramic. The graceful blades are single edge, mostly powerful 5 mm (3/16 ”) thick at the spine, - stout and sturdy carbon steel blade with an upswept needle-pointed tip with file work to the thick sphave one.

They have generally a tapered full tang - tapering the tang gives the knife a balance that can't be achieved any other way. Tapering the tang gets rid of unnecessary weight that you don't need. It also is considered the sign of a seasoned knifemaker; tapered tangs are associated with hand-forged blades.
Some do One side of the blade display a motif of "Kilij" (Turkish saber)

Ref.: "Islamic Weapons. Maghrib to Moghul" , by Anthony C. Tirri, p. 168

Added a picture of an ( rare ) example without the circular ornamental inlays

may I compliment you as yours looks very well indeed and is in a very good condition, also its scabbard. Good catch! Gratuliere ☼

Piece of advise on the bone hilt / handle if I may be so bold :

it looks at one side in a perhaps poor condition. Not to bad but you have to check and watch it

to avoid further deterioration and small pieces splitting off, I would advise to gently take a little drop of olive oil ( pure, not mixed and light colored only- not heavy colored; I use virgin olive oil) on your fingertip and gently and softly rub it over the darkish, damaged parts.
Take a soft cloth to take , rub the dirt off and repeat it if required: you'll see it yourself. Do not overdo it and take no risk. just a little bit.

It will not only clean the dirt a little but also feed the (mostly made from buffelo or ox ) horn and hence avoid further drying out.

Not quite necessary but only visual improvement (if you want) you can use the finest stainless steel wool (Edelstahlwolle extra fein ) to smoothen the surface. Like they do with lefaucheux pinfire revolver bone handles

Very good advice, thanks a lot. I used olive oil and hope that it will avoid to further dry out the grip material

my latest bichaq purchase; I wouldn't call it rare but rather unusual as this type of grip or handle is actually only found in the cutlery section or the most limited to the small knife (non bichaqs) section. Most Bosnian bichaq look like small yataghans or derived from them

This one from Sarajevo has :

a total lenght of 34 cm
without scabbard 33 cm
a blade lenght of 23 cm

I have seen a similar knife around but in a much better version or at least the decent standard Bosnian version with the kilij mark.
Please compare the handle / grip.

I can not recall exactly where but your mark rings a bell as I have seen it around before... could be as a Turkish or rather Ottoman one.
Could be that a local craftsman copied the Bosnian one and marked it with the Turkish / Ottoman cresent...

just bought a bichaq at an auction with this description:

"Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger Knife with Carved Horn Grip & Silver Mounts. Total Length (inside scabbard if present) : 10 1/2" Blade Length : 5 1/4"

Obviously it is a Bosnian Bichaq, a non K.u.K / non Habsburgian one but dated prior the occupation by Habsburg Austria , so before 1878.
My guess would be around 1850 /60 based upon exhibition pieces in Sarajevo I saw.
Now I shall have to wait until it arrives and clean it ;)

Very nice! Unusual to have a hanger assembly on the back of the scabbard. Very nice workmanship on the front and throat of the scabbard.

warning :

I bought it from Sofe Design Auctions, LLC in Richardson, TX, United States yesterday.
Price $ 175 + 25 %
whilst the estimate was $300 - $500.
no minimum price.....so lucky me.....

Not so

as it just got cancelled and I received an email:

Please be advised that the seller has requested your permission to remove the following item:
Lot 406, Unusual 19th C., Asian Indonesian Malaysian Dagger
which you've won during Fall Antique Arms & Art, Nov. 7th, 2020 on Nov 07, 2020.


Reason for removal - clerking error.

Never in 30 years auction experience I met this...after 1 month a clerking error took place... just like the dagger was Asian....
So much for integrity...for an item that was weeks on their books and internet
Well s-beep- happens, so I'll sing an old Lizzy song


I am just a cowboy, lonesome on the trail
A starry night, a campfire light
The coyote call and the howling wind wail
So I ride out to the old sundown

Stay healthy you all !

:)

This is not on. Someone did not get their hoped for price and so reneged on the deal, Shame.

This statement from the auction house is critical. You are being asked for permission to cancel the sale. As I read this, you can say "No" and the sale should be transacted properly. Also, you are not being told what the "clerking error" was and who made that error. If it was the seller, then that's his bad luck! If it was the auction house, then the seller might have some recourse in getting compensation from the auction house. You should not be denied a legal transaction because somebody else made an error.

Thnx!

I did send LiveAuctioneers who is the intermediate my complaint but they don't get involved except advice to agree with the permission to remove or if the seller receives no response from me within 7 days, the item will be removed from your shopping cart automatically, and you will not be responsible for payment.

So now I insisted and requested the auction house Sofe Design Auctions, LLC to legally comply and invoice me so I can have my forwarder pick it up.

Strange rules from Sofe Design Auctions, LLC in Richardson, TX, ...

just got their reply...

"It was a clerking mistake on Liveauctioneer.com. You did not win this item. Sorry. Auctioneer rewarded the winning bid to a floor bidder."

Guess what ... my winning bid I placed 2 days ago is still the highest on the internet...

what's happening with the good ol' U S of A ...? Should I give Rudy (Giuliani) a call...?
:shrug: ;) :p :)

Hi gp,

This all smells very fishy! You were identified as the winning bidder, and asked permission for the seller to withdraw the item. Having pushed for what is rightfully yours, and you expressly did not grant the requested permission, you are now told that you were not the winning bidder!

If you want to take it further, you (or, preferably, your legal representative) could file a consumer complaint with the respective Attorneys General in the states where the auction house and Liveauctioneer.com are registered. Without knowing the specific details, it may be possible (perhaps) for you to argue that one or both are in breach of contract for the sale, and that you were provided false or misleading information as to the winner of the item. It may not be worth your time and expense, but a good lawyer would certainly help.

Thanks for posting the details of your transaction. Readers here can form their own opinions of the respective companies involved.

I stopped buying from auction houses 40 years ago--buyers premiums were too expensive and there were too many shenanigans like your unfortunate experience.

Ian.

Well I leave it as it is and will not bid on this auction house ever again.
Especially asI left a second higher bid 24 hrs prior the auction ...

I have other positive experiences with US auction houses so nothing against them or the good ol’ U S of A ...

Except it did cost me a double Eliah Craig single barrel... :)

received a reply on my request for details:

"Dear Sirs / Madams Regarding lot 406 from Nov 7th 2020 Auction held by SOFE Design Auctions We had to cancel this transaction due to a clerking mistake. The higher winning bid ($275)was awarded to another bidder who was bidding via another bidding platform. We use 6 bidding platforms. The clerk has made a clerking mistake by closing the lot too early! And since she/he opened the next lot for bidding she/he was unable to reopen lot 406 again to continue showing a bidding progression. In our practice it happens! In any case: Auctioneer's decision will be final. Auctioneer also does not accept liability for technology, website or internet failure, or unforeseen circumstances that may influence the execution of bids. This matter is closed now. Again, please accept our apology. Hopefully we'll have similar items in the future! "

you can guess what my action will be for similar auctions in the future with them.... :D

and now something else...


a very nice overview containing some Ottoman cold weapons:

http://www.banatheritage.com/english...s/ColdArms.pdf

GP and others, I too have had experience with the questionable practices of this auction house when I had "won" an item in their online contest but never received the item. Previously to that, I had no issues the one other time using their services during an auction. I am not here to bash, but just beware, read reviews and use best judgment with this auction house when considering.

Anyway, here is my Bosnian Bichaq for the thread record. A larger example at 37cm total, and 37,5cm in sheath. This was purchased from Lew's estate sale a few years back.

-Geoff

nice one Geoff !

just received my smallest bichaq ever :)
which made up 10 times my auction experience and "lost" lot

total length 18 cm
blade 10 cm
ferrule 1 cm and steel; unlike all others which are copper, this one is part of or tied to the blade
handle. grip 7 cm
scabbard 13,5 cm

it clearly differs from the "cutlery" knives (who are without scabbard anyway) and I never saw one like his before.

Perhaps an apprentice piece or just show of mastership,
who nows.... :shrug:


Your thoughts please..

much obliged !

Gunar

my recent addition is a strange one as I only found 2 bichaqs which came close. First of all its dimensions:

total length 35 cm
blade: 22 cm
ferrule 2 cm
handle: 11 cm