Hi Frank,

1. It is not possible to write seriously on the navaja without drawing heavily on the work of Forton. As far as I am aware, there is only one other work worth considering, that of Arturo Sanchez De Vivar, titled La Navaja Clasica. It is a simple and concise work that also drew heavily on Forton and it was written to address mainly the needs of collectors. At least in Spanish, I consider it overshadowed by Forton's Las Mejores Piezas de Colecsion. May be worth translating, but with the same effort a more comprehensive book could be written. However even such a modest work would be a financial risk in terms of publishing costs, especially that of photography which would require going to Spain and hiring a local photographer.

2. The Spaniards claim that they invented the navaja and others copied its design. This may or may not be true, but remarkably similar clasp knives were in use in other parts of Europe, mostly in France and Italy and generally of significantly better quality.

Here is a superb Italian navaja:

http://www.knivescollection.com/cata...d_coltello=631

It was probably an early 19th century exhibition piece, with a 44cm (17") blade that was provided with a sheath, presumably so that it could be carried in the open position if the owner so desired and if the jurisdiction's law permitted it though the long handle would have made this very uncomfortable.

I strongly suspect that the Spaniards were not the only ones to have legislated against fixed blade knives, for why else would the Italians and the French, just to mention two , bothered with inferior (to a fixed blade) folders? That these nations also passed restrictive legislation of some sorts is evidenced by the old and curious practice of selling navajas with the blade's tip sporting a blunt appendage which the owner ground off to end up with the desired sharp point; This was done to circumvent the prohibition of selling pointed clasp knives. The attached phot is that of such an Italian navaja that never saw use and was sold some time ago by the internet firm (knivescollection) given above.

It is my opinion that to make a truly comprehensive study of the navaja one would have to broaden the scope of inquiry so as to include other European nations, besides Spain; However, linguistically this would require an unusually gifted researcher who is capable of looking through old police records and similar archival documents written in a number of different languages. This is why we cannot find anything worth reading in English on European knives and their usage.

As you rightly mention, there were navajas made even as afar as India, though that was around 1900. The basic design lending itself to being manufactured in low tech workshops.

Cheers
Chris

Chris,

I am thinking of getting a real navaja. I am tosing up between a replica or a real antique. Which do you reccomend wrom which dealer. The prices seem fairly much the same.

Best wishes
Frank

Hi Frank,

It all depends on what you want it for. If you have actual usage in mind, that would impart wear and tear, then the only sensible option is to get a repro. On the other hand, if you wish to study the attributes of period pieces, then an antique is mandatory.

You are right, prices are much the same, with few exceptions. The most difficult decision is to choose the type that you want. Spanish made, in the southern style, or French, maybe even Italian; Then, late 18th century or mid or late 19th.

The bulk of the affordable repros, these days indiscriminately intermix early and late features and use stainless steel for the blades and springs - You have to be rather choosy whose products you buy.

If you want a working navaja, then it is hard to go past Exposito's, although these are entirely utilitarian and quite unlike the earlier ones that doubled up as weapons.

You have my address, so once you have decided on something, drop me aline and I'll tell you what I think. There are a lot of good antiques that turn up on e-bay, at reasonable prices. If you go to a dealer, expect to pay 50% more.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Frank,

You may consider one of these.

http://www.couteau-catalan.com/

Unfortunately the site is in French, but they appear to be fairly faithful repros, their only shortcoming being a rather short blade, presumably to fit in with current legislation. You can compare them with that photo I posted some time ago of a historical piece.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris and folks

I just got me Exposito navaja from Spain. After a lot of thinking decided to start of with a safe bet. Thanks Chris for recomeding it A great buy

It has a 6 inch blade and ratchet lock. As a toolmaker by trade I can tell that it is largely handmade. Quite a nice piece and a strong enough to be used as a work knife, not that I wpould do that as it it is too nice. The lock seems bomproof but I think it would soon develop a bit of slop if used hard. It compares quite well with my Voyager for sturdiness and the lock seems stronger. Tho I wouldnt wana use it to gut rabits as there is too many nooks where gunk can get traped and is hard to clean out.

When it comes to SD it is another story. Very slow to open and requires two handsNo way of doing it with one. The blade is not like the oldies which were very pointy but wide and madede for cuting. For SD the Voyager eats it fr breakfast Much faster :D

I now absolutely agree with you Chris that the navaja is a very beatiful but overated knife and I have the smae opinion of Italian stiletos. Anybody who now tells me othersise I reckon is full of BS. I now wonder if I could get my money back on those two books :(

Now I am starting to shop for an real antique

Best Wishes
Frank

Hi Frank,

Glad to read that you are pleased with your Exposito. As far as modern navajas go, they are probably the best.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Everybody,

A friend and fellow collector recently acquired these two navajas for his collection.

One is a French hand made navaja, in the Albacetan Spanish manner, dating from probably the 1960s. It has a 11cm long stainless steel blade and ivory & German silver handle. It is extremely well made and was clearly intended as a luxury item, a gentleman's pocket folder. The only inscription on the blade's ricasso is "GARANTI", "FAIT MAIN". It has the traditional `window" lock, with a 7 teeth `carraca', though the spring, rather than being the post 1900 "muelle de teja", is encased between the liners of the handle

The other is a rather curious piece, made by Aitor, as one like it is featured in Loriega's book "Sevillian Steel". It has a 18cm long stainless steel blade photo engraved with the picture of the Spanish folk hero and bandit Luis Candelas Cagigal. It is a thematic recreation of navajas affecting the ones that Spanish cutlers made in the French manner during the closing decades of the 19th century. It has a
wooden handle and what appears to be cast brass bolsters. The design of the front bolster is most unusual in that it is made in one piece (with a slit to accept the blade), so that lateral leverages stemming from the blade are received with added restraint and thus is far stronger than those made in a more traditional manner, that is, with each bolster separately attached to the handle halves. The blade is quite effectively secured, when open, with a completely atypical lock, that nevertheless is based on the old Spanish `window' design; It is extremely unusual because the `window' is "blind", having been formed into the spine spring. - It has the rattling `carraca' feature, with three teeth. All in all, a serviceable, solid and hefty navaja, of historically accurate dimensions and shape, though not in construction. It is somewhat roughly made, for a price, and obviously intended for the souvenir market and not for day to day use.

For those interest in the life of Cagigal, he was born in 1804 and despite having inherited a modest fortune, he decided upon a life of banditry. In the end, he was caught and executed in 1837, infront the gates of Toledo. It is said that his preferred weapons were the `cuchillo' (fixed blade knife) and pistols. His popularity was attributable to his rakish good looks, the help he gave to the poor, his audacity and reckless courage - When his final moment arrived, he is said to have met his fate with remarkable composure, addressing the spectators with the exclamation "Happiness to my country".

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris

That secon one is a mean looking navaja. Would you consider it a fighting weapon? Where can I buy one?

Best Wishes
Frank

Hi Frank,

1. This one most decidedly would qualify as a fighting navaja as its general proportions replicates those of French origins, with a blade equally good at cutting and thrusting and as many used in Spain in the closing decades of the 19th century.

It is very well designed, with only three ratchet teeth (fast but not silent opening) and great potential lateral strength at the pivot pin, an area of significant weakness on most navajas. However it is badly let down by the aluminium bolsters, which are likely to be unreliably weak and its wooden handle. Since my original posting we found out that the bolsters instead of being made from brass are in fact made from a cheap and fragile aluminium die castings anodized to look like brass and varnished over.

Had it been made with proper brass bolsters and a horn handle it would have resulted in a navaja better than anything made in the old days. And had it been properly finished, it would be a very collectable knife - As it is, with its cheap wooden handle, fake brass bolsters and imprecise fitting, it amounts to little more than another souvenir grade Spanish folder.

I suspect that the reason that it wasn't made that way was the cost of the buffalo horn and the time and difficulties involved in making such a complicated bolster from brass sheet - No way of mass producing it.

2. The only way that you'll buy one is to look for a used one. I am told that they went out of production some years ago. A shame, because it has a damn good blade and lock.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris

Thanks for that info.

Regards
Frank

Chris

I found this thread most interesting. It certainly goes against the current
image of the navaja.

From what you say, and you argue your case well, it would seem that there
is no live Spanish tradition of knife fighting. If so, what about other
European countries like Italy, especially its southern regions? After all, it is universally acknowledged that the Latin Europeans have a distinct penchant for knives.

Robert

Hi Robert,

First I should declare that as a collector, my focus is on the Spanish `navaja' and the Gaucho' `facon' and its usage in Spain and Latin America. As I have no useful command over languages other than Spanish, I cannot do more than hazard a guess as to what prevails in other European nations. However, I do feel that the situation is unlikely to be very different, for the simple reason that they have all came a long way from the harsh and labour intensive agricultural economies, and the attendant impoverished lifestyle that allowed knives to play such an important role.

BTW: I don't quite know what you mean by living tradition. If you mean the ongoing settling of private disputes with knives, that is dueling, then that went out of fashion a very long time ago - Social changes and modern law enforcement took care of that. If on the other hand you mean that some degree of criminal violence involving knives still takes place amongst the impoverished, as all over the world, then there is a living tradition, though its significance eludes me.

In the closing years of the twentieth century, various knife arts, of Asian and military provenance, have made their appearance in Europe as elsewhere. Also the WMA boom has caught up with Europe and in the wake of the recent enthusiasm for lost European combative arts, there are instructors who claim to have either re-discovered or being the heir to hitherto unknown but ancient and sophisticated knife fighting systems. Given the total absence of historical manuals and schools, it is impossible to validate any of these claims and as far as I am aware, none have demonstrated a credible link to the past.

Discounting intentional fraud, the best that can said for these newly discovered systems is that until their exponents bring forth convincing demonstration of their links to the past, it has to be assumed that what they are offering are re-packaged versions of the aforementioned new arts. This is not to say that they are bad, but that they are not traditional.

In any event, we have to remember that no fighting art can remain immune to the changes brought on by time; Nineteenth century, or earlier popular combative system evolved in regional isolation and in response to the legal, social and combative requirements of the times. Ancient `navaja' or `facon' fighting systems (if there were indeed any) could not possibly find application in settings as radically different as that presented by modern societies, unless so modified as to be unrecognizable - For one, anyone who tried to walk down a street with a large
`navaja' or `facon' tucked in the belt would face immediate arrest for being illegally armed and if the offender's declared intention was to fight a duel, then the mandatory sentence would be greatly increased.

Roughly a year ago this topic was given a good trashing on this forum when someone brought up the subject of Gypsy knife fighting. Have read of it:

http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/002305.html

Cheers
Chris

Chris,

I must say this is one of the best and most informative threads I ever came
across on the subject.

Your argument regarding there being no living Euro traditions makes good
sense. In various places you made references to South America - Are there
living traditions there? If so, is their form anything like found in SE
Asia, say Filipino Arnis, with teachers and schools?

Regards
Robert

Hi Robert,

Thank you for your appreciative words.

There is most certainly an ongoing tradition of solving personal disputes violently in SA. But the methods used to do so are changing even there. Fifty years ago, in the countryside, old fashioned knife duels were commonplace but these days a good deal less. Even so, a search in Google with the phrase "Duelo Criollo" (Creole Duel with knives) will return a large number of hits, some actual reports of fights, old and contemporary, and many literary and musical references to same. All this indicates that the tradition is very much alive, albeit different to what prevailed in the past.

The old Spanish ritualized duel with cape on left arm and long knife in the right has given way to impromptu encounters with shorter knives and guns, although for a number of reasons knives remain the most often used weapon. To a large extent, this reflects not just tradition but also an intractable crime problem, especially in the slums; If one is poor, it is next to impossible to become proficient with guns, which in any event are very expensive items.

As everywhere, Asian and other martial arts have found their way to SA and nowadays there is a huge variety of approaches taken to fighting. Those who are well off take lessons and hardly ever fight and the impoverished masses improvise and fight as they always did.

In all my readings and travels, I never heard of any knife fighting systems or schools in olden times - All the writers who extoll the old traditions are consistent in upholding that apart from some shared generalities, it was all done with courage and the adroitness that comes from working with knives on a daily basis.

Cheers
Chris

Terrific and informative thread!

The slowness of opening and common lack of lock would certainly seem to make the navaja inferior for some purposes. But they also made them acceptable to carry. For an attacker, the slowness of the opening is less of a problem than to a defender. And, as was mentioned above, lack of a lock probably dictated more slashing.

Consider a common weapon in American slums at the end of the nineteenth century--the straight razor. Portable, concealable, useful for other purposes, not inherently illegal, no lock, no thrusting capability, but a quicker open.

Hi dennee,

You are absolutely right about locks, or rather their absence on the great majority of navajas.

The straight razor was in its heyday a much favoured weapon with all kinds of people all over the word, though I suspect that its power to intimidate far exceeded its potential as a weapon. Some years ago, I remember seeing a Brazilian film, the name of which now escapes me. Actually, it was more like a musical and set in the 1940s, in which a corrupt police officer fights a ritualized duel with razors with a slum hustler with whom he was in a racket and later fell out. They used Caoperia techniques and the name of the game was to "mark" the face of the opponent . The fight choreography wasn't terribly convincing, but it gave us some idea. And by the way, the cop lost and had a neat set of little vertical scars to show for his troubles, all adroitely planted there by his opponent.

Cheers
Chris

Chris

You mentioned "Capoeria". Now isn't that a proper system of fighting, like
say the FMA and do they use knives and other weapons in Capoeria? Was this
art present in other SA countries and did it influence gaucho knife fighting?

Regards
Robert

Hi Robert,

You ask very good questions. Whilst I know relatively little of the African aspect of Brazilian culture, I will try and provide some answers:

Capoeria was the martial art of the African slaves that the Portuguese took to Brazil to work their plantations. It was a secret art into which one had to be initiated. The slaves used it as self defense against the whites. Some decades ago, little by little it came out into the open, mostly in the guise of troupes of Capoerista entertainers putting on shows of acrobatics and fight displays in public places and then passing the hat around. On weekends, in Rio and other Brazilian cities, one can see many such displays. Also, most troupes have some white members, proving that the art is no longer segregated along racial lines. I was told that in the favellas (slums) it is widely practiced, but that nowadays it is an umbrella term for any martial art. Traditionally it was taught in a quasi formal manner but these days anything goes. Kids teach other but whether one gets to join a good group or not depends on one's innate ability - Obviously, to make money from public displays, they have to be reasonably talented.

I don't know what were the fighting techniques of early Capoeria, save that it involved a lot of acrobatics and kicking. Some fifteen years ago I witnessed a display by a superb group in a Rio night club and apart from the acrobatics, which were pretty fantastic and remarkably olympic gymnastics like, the mock kick fighting was high class Tae Kwan Do sans punches! That said, around the same time, in an Argentine province's city square I witnessed a similar display by a low end troupe who were so bad that it wasn't even funny and their mock fighting was again something like beginners Karate. Quite obviously, Capoeria has absorbed a lot of foreign influences and like so many ethnic arts it isn't what it used to be.

When it comes to knives and given their prevalence in SA, including Brazil, I am absolutely sure that Capoeria has techniques for its usage. However, apart from choreographed film fights, I have not seen them demonstrated.

The big question is whether Capoeria techniques have or have not found their way into other SA countries. It is possible, especially in Uruguay. Argentina had a substantial negroid population until the end of the nineteenth century and it is conceivable that at least some of these people had a secret martial art. However, I never have seen this suggested, though many years ago the Argentinean writer Osornio, in his book Esgrima Criolla (Creole Fencing) mentions a couple of Negroes who were highly skilled with knives and one who could even disarm his opponents! We will probably never know because if such an art existed amongst the Argentinean Negroes, it would have been kept highly secret.

For those who would like to do some further reading, here is an excellent link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capoeira

Cheers
Chris

Chris

Wow, that website claims that the cops used to cut the tendons of the caporistas!

From what you saw how efective is caporia as a fighting system?

Reagrds
Frank

Hi Frank,

You question is very hard to answer meaningfully. For a start, save for broad generalities, we do not know what old Capoeira was really like and since it has come out of the closet it has absorbed all sorts of other combative influences, including boxing, Karate and its variants and on all accounts it relies heavily for its effectiveness on surprise. We must also remember that before WWII many Okinawans and Japanese migrated to Brazil and in the 1960s a lot of Koreans also found their way into the region, though most opted for Paraguay - These folks left their imprint on local fighting styles; The famous Gracie style Jiu-Jitsu coming to mind immediatley.

With that said, the effectiveness of any martial art depends disproportionately on the individual practitioner's athleticism, that is strength, speed and size, as well as muscular coordination. Things being what they are in South America, the ticket out of the slums and poverty is through soccer or boxing. Anyone who is good enough to walk the walk and not just talk, is hardly likely to waste his time with a obsolete MA when he could make good money and fame in the ring or in the stadium. In contrast, the best that any Capoeria practitioner can hope for is to become either a feared slum crim or at most a nightclub performer, perhaps an instructor at one of the schools - To put it differently, it does not offer a very attractive or rewarding career path. Still there are exceptions and in all probability a few must be very good fighters.

Cheers
Chris

Chris

Throughout this thread and the other one you seem to be of the view that
there were not set techniques for knife fighting. Obviously you have given
this matter some thought. My question: In your opinion, are there or were
there any knife fighting systems that worked any better than improvisation , anywhere?

Reagrds
Robert

Hi Robert,

I suppose it all depends what you mean by knife fighting, after all, it can cover a very wide variety of sins - And then there is also the question of what you mean by knives which comprise everything from a diminutive "tactical" folder to a Gaucho's facon with a 20" long blade.

Knives have been used throughout the ages, especially by men at arms, as:

a) Weapons of ambush (assassination);
b) backups to weapons of longer reach such as staffs, swords and guns; and
c) general weapons of last resort.

A detailed discussion of the above is beyond the scope of this thread and are well covered by extant literature, especially military manuals. In general, these applications are more about tactical considerations than knife specific skills.

However, in discussions such as this, most people associate knife fighting with dueling. In fact, the lores of the navaja and facon are inextricably linked with dueling, as attested to by the attention paid to the Manual del Baratero and the views that I have expressed on this thread and others in the past have to be understood in this context.

We must not lose sight of the fact that knives offer no advantage of reach and lack "stopping power". This means that a successful hit does not guarantee immunity from an equally damaging counterattack - As a result, knife dueling, if in earnest and it seldom is, tends to be a very uncertain undertaking in which both combatants are likely to end up seriously injured. There are any number of reported incidents that bears witness to this.

Also, in a technical sense, because of its short blade (compared to a sword) there is only so much that can be done with a knife. For example, the English renaissance swordsman, George Silver, wrote at length about techniques for the sword, but could give precious little instruction on the dagger, when used alone. Similarly, I have seen Asian masters of various martial arts demonstrate their usage of knives and their techniques came down to some very simple moves, but executed with extremely finely honed sense for timing and distance. One such master expressed the view to me that there wasn't all that much to it, except for understanding a knife and being able to move with speed and finesse.

So to sum up, neither the Spaniards of old nor others of European origins, have left us anything in writing that we could construe to be a system over and above what anybody with some thought could devise and the Far Eastern Asians have adopted the knife as an adjunct to complex unarmed or sword arts - However, when used alone, as say when dueling, I have not seen anything resembling a system from even those quarters. In South East Asia there are a number of blade arts, but on closer scrutiny it can be quickly discerned that these are derivatives of more comprehensive combative systems and outside of carefully choreographed demonstrations do not amount to all that much. What I have seen though, is a large number of tricks that can be devastating to the unwary, but only the unwary, and these must be seen in the same light as the "botta segrete" (secret thrust) of the old fencing masters, that is, very simple and easily countered basic moves, but set up with an unusual preliminary sequence and relying disproportionately on the surprise factor for success. Richard Burton, for one, was of the opinion that they were useless (with swords).

Cheers
Chris

Any comments on this one. I bought it with several Moro swords, all said to have purchased in the Southern Philippines. It opens rather easily with one hand flick but is very hard to close, needing both hands & then pushing blade on hard surface. Well made and could be used quickly.

Hi Bill,

You got a good one there. That lock is what the Spaniards would describe as a `teat-lock', the teat being the little stub on the heel of the blade that engages with the hole in the spine spring. This type of lock was comparatively rare in Spain and much liked by the French and Italian cutlers who use them to this day. It provides great security and as you say, on some models, a very fast opening - For this reason the Spanish authorities did not like them nor did their cutlers because it required precision fitting by highly skilled labour, which was scarce in their country.

A near identical navaja is shown on plate 140 (pg 131) of Forton's "Antique Clasp Knives" and is described as probably made during the 19th century in French Rosellon (a border region near Catalunia). Depending on its overall state, it would fetch around $US500 on the open market and more if sold by a dealer.

Cheers
Chris

Thank You, Chris

Helo Robert

I agree completely with Chris. I am a senior black belt holder and have recived instruction in the knife and other common weapons. We use them as extensions of the body movments that we already mastered and back them up with our unarmed skills. This means that should somebody get past my knife they still have to face my kicks and other blows. But with all this knowledege I could not be sure to win aginst another knife in a fight (I tried this in the gym)

Bill

Thats a relly cool knife. How much did you pay for it?

Chris

It looks from Bills navaja that the idea of fliging a pocket knife open did not start with the tacticals. How comon was this idea?

Good wishes
Frank

Chris

Thank you for your reply - Again it makes good sense, though I am still
intrigued by knife fighting systems derived from fencing. Any comments?

Regards
Robert

Frank

Thanks for those comments. It supports the views of Chris

Regards
Robert

Hi Robert,

When you ask about knife fighting systems derived from fencing, you have to stipulate what type of fencing you have in mind.

Sword play has two distinctly different forms, technically known as that of `single time' and `double time', `time' meaning a distinct phase or movement. Spanish knife dueling, indeed most knife dueling, parallels early sword play . What has to be kept in mind however, is that unlike with swords, fencing with knives will not deliver a victory through the application of mere techniques, as there is much left to chance and other factors. To a lesser extent this also applied to early sword play and was the driving force behind its eventual evolution towards the more scientific `double time' play, which provides a more reliable fight; One that is less dependent on luck and tricks and also less prone to the mutual double hits, entanglements and bloody wrestling matches that plagued rapier and broadsword fights.

For a brief explanation of the two styles I reproduce here an extract from a paper that I wrote some time ago on the rapier. I also would like to draw attention to that early rapier fencing was technically fairly simple relying greatly on the preparation of attacks and attendant deceits and for parrying on a left hand implement was used. Later rapier play was still conducted in `single time' but became a good deal more reliant on the use of the blade for other than just delivering thrusts or cuts. Nevertheless, sword play only attained its current complexity and sophistication with `double time' play.


It should be noted that full `double time' swordplay became possible only with the advent of the very much lighter and faster purely thrusting small-sword of the late 18th century; Its fight was characterized by leading with the sword arm and leg and the frequent use of the lunge. In contrast, early rapier consisted of leading with the leg opposite to the sword side, holding back the sword and delivering attacks by taking a step forward, called a `pass', with the sword side leg and extending the sword arm. The lunge was rarely used.

Spanish knife play, according to the English fencing authority Egerton Castle, was based on early rapier play, and of course `sans covering', with attacks being delivered on the `pass' and leading with the leg opposite to the sword side. It has to be understood clearly that later sword play, that is, in `double time', cannot not be adapted to knives because they cannot parry on account of their short length. Even the very long, short sword like Gaucho facons and Spanish left hand daggers could not parry reliably for being too heavy and or too short and for this reason were used in conjunction with a cape.

Over the years there were numerous attempts by fencing masters to incorporate sword techniques into knife usage, but inevitably these were reiterations of early rapier or left hand dagger play, as exemplified by the section dealing with daggers in Alfred Hutton's `Cold Steel'.

There were also a few questionable, and in my view unsuccessful, attempts to introduce modern fencing elements such as leading with the knife hand and leg and primarily attacking the opponents knife hand, as done in epee and sabre duels. These techniques are not likely to work against a fighter who does not oblige by leading with the knife hand and in any event such an on-guard position is very risky because of the ease with which the extended knife can be displaced, trapped or by-passed. In fact, the majority of the self defense moves taught assume that that is how the attacker will behave.

I should close with the observation that the majority of movie knife fights are based on re-hashed `double time' sword fencing moves and are intended to be mere entertainment rather than a exposition of a sound way to duel with knives.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Frank,

I have seen numerous antique large folders that could be flung open, but these had rather loose blades at the hinge to permit this action. Old navajas had riveted pivot pins and unlike the modern tactical folders, the tightness of the blade could not be finely adjusted, at least not easily in an age when few had the necessary tools - And a folder with a loose blade at the pivot pin is a very weak knife - So, it is a matter of guesswork if many were opened that way.

In any event and as we have seen, the Spanish authorities did not take well to locks of any kind and it is safe to assume that those that could be opened quickly on account of a fast action and lock would have been even less tolerated in most jurisdictions. Most lockers that can be opened quickly, like Bill's, are of French origins from the late 1800s, an era by which the navaja in Spain was in decline.

Cheers
Chris

The mechanics on the blade seems to be rather simple; folded, the hinged end is squared resting against the lock, holding the blade in. The blade is large and heavy. With momentum, the weight, makes the swing rather quick. The other side of the hinged end is curved, bringing the teat under the lock. I am surprised, that with the craftsmanship involved, that there is no makers mark, but I am unfamilar with navajas or french work. Frank, I don't recall the price, as I recall, I bought a couple of 19C Moro barungs with this one, all being described as Indonesian barungs, brought back by a WWll vet. It is possible that it once belonged to a Spanish soldier who served in the Philippines.

Hi Bill,

1. Is there a logo stamping anywhere on the blade?

2. You could be quite right in that it was a knife that belonged to a Spanish soldier, probably one of Catalan origins.

Cheers
Chris

No logo, it does have the sign of the Cross near the tip, on one side of the blade, & another on the lock.

Hi Bill,

Any chance of a photo of those markings? Forton gives several pages of logo-brand stampings in his book, many French.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris, You can see the Cross on the 1st & 3rd pics, I already posted, made out of a series of dots. Not to clear, but they are there.

Chris

I should have never asked! You ovewrhelmed me with technicalities - It will take me a long time to get my non fencing mind around all that, but many thanks all the same. :o

Keep up the good work
Robert

Hi Bill,

I could not see the cross on the first pic, but on the third it looks like mere decoration.


Hi Robert,

Sorry about my rather longwinded answer. This article by Stephen Hand, a historical fencer, may be of some help in better understanding `single/doubletime' fencing:

http://www.stoccata.org/stoccata.nsf...2567E300827FA2

Cheers
Chris

Chris

Thanks for that link to that article on fencing. Realy intersting. Now I understand the diference between Japanese/Asian and European sword fighting.

I know that small knives cant block another knife but what about the biger ones? Surely witha 20 inch blade something can be done?

Have a good one
Frank

Hi Frank,

1. I presume that what you mean is that European swordplay evolved into double time play whereas the Orientals, never quite having discovered the science of the point, stayed with what we may call single time sword play in which defense was primarily by voiding (evasion). This a was also the case in the West, where the heavier military cutting swords, when fenced with, continued to be used in single time. Whilst a few double time moves can be made with a heavy-ish sword, only the very light small-sword and its descendants can be fenced consistently in double time.

2. Re Parrying With Knives: The 18th and early 19th century Gauchos, in keeping with Spanish tradition, used very long knives/daggers. After that time, their knives became shorter for a variety of reasons, but we need not go into this here. These long knives were made from cut down swords and bayonets - A good many had blades somewhere in between 16" and 20". Now, if we remember that a small-sword has a blade around 30", it is not hard to see that with say a 20" blade, some kind of blade to blade interaction is possible, indeed probable, but as we shall see, not necessarily beneficial. For parrying to be of use, the defender has to gain an advantage of leverage against the attacker so as to reliably displace his blade's point and thus open the way for a safe counterattack. This is achieved by the defending sword's first half (forte) engaging the attacking sword's second half (foible) - If this advantage of leverage is not attained, then the parry is largely a dengerously wasted move. Now, once the blade length decreases to less than that of a sword parries become increasingly unreliable and below some critical, but undefined length, completely unattainable. In addition, parry/riposte fencing also requires effective handguards, which apart from specialized left hand fencing daggers, knifes did and do not have.

Something else to keep in mind is that to use a knife for parrying, a knife side hand and leg forward stance is required, akin to that of a modern swordsman. However, this stance has the following disadvantages:

a) Prevents effective parrying with the left arm implement (cape etc);
b) makes it difficult to attack without resorting to the lunge, a move that is completely impractical with a knife;
c) the fighter that leads with the knife is vulnerable to be either cut on the arm, or worse still, rushed should his arm be displaced sideways.

For the above reasons, the Spanish style knife fighters lead with the left leg and arm defending (usually with a cape), whilst the knife arm and leg are held back, attacks being delivered on a "pass" or a step forward, as the knife arm is at the same time extended.

To sum up, any attempt to defend (parry) with a very long knife is fraught with disadvantages and with a shorter weapon completely impractical. And in my opinion, this is why knife systems derived from modern fencing, that is in double time, are ineffective and perilous in the extreme.

Cheers
Chris

Mr Evans,

I must respectfully disagree with what you state above.

George Silver, in describing the use of the "short sword" of his day (a basket-hilted broadsword or backsword, that actually had a rather long blade of 37"-40"), said that one of the main defensive options was to "ward, & after to strike". This is what modern fencers call a parry-riposte, and thus we are talking about a double-time action.

The parry-riposte remained a staple for cut-and-thrust swordplay with the broadsword, backsword, saber, & cutlass.

Best,

R C