Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.

A similar practice also applied in Bali.

By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong.

Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance?

My blade stays in the reverse position when she's in the bed. The handle fits between the fingers on the right side when the kris wants to see outside

yes, but from your last pic, it's no possible to understand the verse of the blade inside the sheath

As you wish Marco.

But it does sometimes assist in understanding keris tradition if one attempts to understand the position of the keris within the society from which it comes, and that understanding must take account of time.

Sure: simple.. intuitive and fast

Marco, my own intuition comes from the society & culture in which I was raised, I live in Australia, my ancestors came from Ireland, Cornwall & Scotland, with one outsider from Spain or Portugal (he was a bit of a ring in).

But in order to understand Javanese intuition, or for that matter, the intuition of any society & culture other than our own, we do need to devote a large part of our time to the relevant study.

This keris under discussion is a Javanese keris, in order to gain an understanding of this keris, should we try to apply a Javanese paradigm, or a paradigm that comes from a different culture & society?

sorry..."sure, intuitive and fast" ...to put a book on sale years ago beside of this kerisforum.. NO! :):D

Alan of course, certainly a Javanese paradigm! .. A paradigm from which I am far from and aware of it.... and I love listening to the Javanese when they teach me somethings about keris

n

So it seems we are in agreement Marco, however, it is wise to be rather careful when selecting a teacher.

This applies to all disciplines, not only the matter of keris.


Edit

"discipline" in the sense of a branch of knowledge

Yes, i agree with you Alan about disciplines and wise

Well i suppose, however incorrect i might be about it, i was considering cengkrong/cundrik as outside the category of the standard keris. And again, i do personally would not consider Marco's example to be a cengkrong or cundrik. So i still have never seen a keris fitted to a sheath in that manner. ;)
I am not sure that i agree that i see cengkrong/cundrik as part of the Maheas family.
As to the example you posted next, which i assume you posted to illustrate your point (?), it is a confusing one because it also present a kembang pogog on one side. And if i am not mistaken, both the hilt and the kembang pogog are oriented in the normal manner in the wrongko, not reversed.
If you have any examples of how regular cengkrong/cundrik are oriented in their sheaths i would love to see them as i don't believe i have ever seen one with its sheath.

Exactly! As i stated in post #33, "Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is."
I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees. ;)

my post was based not on the terminology of the dapur which, honestly, I don't care that much, but on the correct insertion of that type of blade in the sheath:rolleyes:

Well Marco, MY post was not a response to you at all, but rather to Alan's comments concerning the debate about what dhapur to name your blade and the great variations we encounter in keris terminology these days. So i am confused as to why you felt the need to respond to me at all, least of all with a rolled eye emoji, which i consider rather rude.
And i should hope that none of your posts were based on the terminology of kitchens. Is there some reason you continue to insist on using that spelling?

Hello Marco,

Maybe the given pictures of three from my keris are helpful!
I feel the sarung for your keris is wrong, sorry.

Regards,
Detlef

Marco, in respect of your post #55.

Please see my post #42.

If we accept that Javanese belief & tradition is correct, rather than the ideas of some craftsman, or salesman then this keris under discussion has been incorrectly mounted to the wrongko.

In my post I have written "--- my understanding ---" that understanding was gained from several keris literate people in Solo whom I knew during the 1980's, all have now left us, and all these people were members of the hierarchy of the Karaton Surakarta Hardiningrat, equally, all these people were devout followers of Javanese tradition.

This keris is most certainly unusual, it is a nice addition to a collection if for no other reason than that it demonstrates the erosion of cultural understanding over time, but it is incorrectly mounted.

sorry David. I wanted to put the smiley with the eye that winks ... I clicked wrong. I'm sorry. What does terminologists of kitchens mean? I'm Italian and I don't know the meaning

Marco, please see my post #23

Well language on an international forum is always a challenge. So it is possible that you did not fully understand what Alan was trying to tell you in post #23.
The word "dapur" that you are using actually translates to the english word "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesian. I have seen this word used in certain keris literature, but it is not the correct word for the shape or profile of a keris. Most of the words that we use in keris terminology that apply to Javanese keris are in fact Javanese words, not Bahasa Indonesian. The correct word you are looking for here is the Javanese word "dhapur", which translates into English as "shape" or "form".
There are a number of cases like this where a misused spelling gets repeated enough times that it becomes a common mistake. "Peksi" is another one i see frequently when referring to the tang of a blade. That word actually means "bird", often meaning a chicken, but the proper term is actually spelled "pesi".
I hope that clears things up. ;)

Hello Detlef :)
my keris is like this

Sorry Marco, but i must point out that your keris is not like this. The keris in the image above is indeed properly oriented in the sheath. It is only the hilt that is oriented in reverse. ;)

Agree with David, sorry Marco. :shrug:

there is only one small detail: the scabbard in the photo does not have a pendok and has the same painting on both sides. so by turning the scabbard 180 degrees when I extract the kris I have the handle in the right position to be held correctly in the hand. With a pendok scabbard this rotation to properly extract the kris would be an eyesore.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. The hilt on the keris in the photo simply needs to be rotated 180 degrees. Problem solved.

Dear Marco,
You can turn the keris with the painted scabbard completely when inside the scabbard or just the handle as you like and as many times as you like, it doesn't change the fact that the front of the blade points to the front of the scabbard.:eek:;);) In the shown picture the handle simple shows to the wrong side.

Regards,
Detlef

Disagree, the shown keris with the handle showing in the wrong direction is an eyesore! ;)

Isn't it??

Isn't it?? ;)

Gentlemen. I'm really not sure where this thread is going. None of the examples you have shown,Marco, present sheaths that have the keris in reverse position like your example is. That seems to be the really unusual aspect of your keris that we were all commenting on.
We have all seen Javanese hilts presented with the hilts reversed. Yes, even in published books. That does not necessarily mean that is the generally accepted position for such hilts. But yes, surely it happens.
So i am not sure what all these recent posts are trying to establish.
I respectfully suggest we move on to more fruitful topics. :)

I apologize to you David but I find it correct to post this ... and then I shut up
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eris+Cengkrong

there is no doubt that that thread shows a similarly oriented kris as Marco's.

And Ganjawulung is in Jakarta so not an European intetpretation

We could postulate that this is " wrong" but if several people thought this was right then maybe is right.

I have looked it up and SOME Banyumas cengkrong keris, seem to conform to this " tradition", others don't. One thing is for sure, Marco is not alone in this.

Marcos blade isn't a cengkrong blade! :shrug:

Well, "no doubt"? I couldn't say. Because those photos do not show us what it looks like from the top of the wrongko. Usually these hilts are not fixed in place so the hilt could have quite easily been turned around for the photo of when the blade is in the sheath. Not saying this is what was done. Only that there is certainly a possibility for doubt until a revealing photograph can be shown.
Now if indeed this is another example of a blade that actually is mounted in reverse position in the sheath then that make TWO. Two examples like this in all my years of looking at keris and all of Alan's years of looking at keris and all of Detlef's years, etc. etc. So if indeed you did find one other example (and i still have not seen the photograph that will prove that), then we still have an anomaly working here. Something far outside the norm. If the intention is to show that this reversal of position in the sheath is the accepted norm for keris of this type i believe we are a long way from that being shown.
So my only question here is why? Not why was it done, by why is it so important to establish this as being within the norms of Javanese keris culture. For myself, i have always appreciated the occasional oddity. And i am afraid that for the time being this remains an oddity. If it was mine i would simply enjoy it. ;)

Annnnnd....another good point. :)

some pics

Good detective work coming up with a few more examples of this odd positioning. But i would say that now the real detective work begins. Because surely the overwhelming evidence points to the fact that this is well outside the norm. Certainly the amount of keris oriented this way in the wrongko is far less than 1%. So the question here is not IF such orientation exists, however slight, but rather WHY this has been done in these rare cases.

Sorry David, but there must be a reason why these types of dhapur are depicted in old texts with the hilt pointing in the opposite side! ....If we agree with our geometry, the reason is extremely simple: as I have already written in many previous posts: the keris could not enter, into the sheath, correctly.

and are not rare case

Of course it's rare. If someone like Alan Maisey states that "in over 70 years of handling & seeing keris I believe I have never seen an (apparently) professionally mounted keris set into its scabbard back to front" i don't know what else to call it.
You seem to be responding very defensively to remarks about this presentation. Obviously we aren't arguing with the fact that it exists and that others exist that are also mounted in this manner. The evidence is clear that examples exist.
I am not convinced that the reason is a simple as it could not enter the sheath properly if it wasn't reversed though. It still leaves us with the question of why is this the case and why do we have these blades that ignore the Javanese concept of condong leheh.