Any photos of this Jaga?

[QUOTE=Jean, what do you think the role of rice water (effectively starch) is in this method?[/QUOTE]

Rice contains arsenic at a relatively high level compared to most other foods.
:shrug:

Not sufficient to give any waragan effect IMO or all rice eaters would die in horrible circumstances as arsenic accumulates inside the body :D

Here you go.

It's since been cleaned down to a bare white blade because I wasn't happy with it. But it was a promising result.

When I try it again I'll leave it for longer.

Recipe:

Rice water - I soaked 1 part jasmine rice in 2 parts water, and agitated it so that it became cloudy. I ended up with around half a cup.

Salt - I used regular cooking salt. Don't remember how much. Maybe half a teaspoon.

Sulphur - In the form of yellow powder off ebay. I think I used 2 teaspoons.

My own appreciation: Quite good cleaning results, some faint traces of rust visible on the sorsoran and ganja, about equivalent of what I get with vinegar but with slightly better pamor contrast.

For me, it didn't go nearly as dark just using vinegar. Though if I could retain the slight contrasts that vinegar gives the blade, I would. I quite like it.

I reckon that for the type of material it is, it is a pretty good job.

Long time since I used the rice water method, but I'm pretty certain that my rice water was produced by boiling rice in too much water, then draining the water off. Also, I left the blade in the slurry of sulphur + salt + rice water for (I think) about a week, it was wrapped in plastic, the original recipe called for wrapping in a palm leaf.

The sulphur would have been bought in a hardware or garden supplier, the salt would have been from the kitchen.

This was the result.

Incidentally, this blade was stained more than 60 years ago, it has been maintained by infrequent oiling during that time, and for the last +/- 50 years by oiling + a plastic sleeve.

That looks like a nice result. In the absence of warangan I'd be happy with it.

Just to clarify Alan, did it have any of the warangan stain on it prior to doing the rice water + sulphur + salt method?

I think I'll give this another go soon. All of a sudden got a lot more time on my hands with this pandemic lockdown situation. Hope everyone stays healthy and safe

I really don't remember Jaga.

I think I was only about 17 or 18 when I did this, it was the first keris I ever stained, I did not know any other way at that time. I remember broadly what I did, but no detail.

It has been, for about 23 years now, a maxim of mine (inspired by a Clint Eastwood movie, if memory serves) that, "If anything goes wrong, it'll be because of my mistake, and not anybody else's"; alternatively: "Nothing learns a lesson like my own tuition fees". The last mentioned quote is entirely my own, as far as I know. This is not to say that someone else may not have come up with it independently prior to myself and/or without my knowledge.
If anyone reading this feels like they must make a choice, I would urge such a one to heed the counsel of Mr. Maisey, for his is the voice of experience longer and broader than my own.
I'm thankful to God Almighty that He, in His Merciful Omniscience, has (thus far) protected irreplaceable antiquities and cultural artifacts from becoming the wreckage along the wayside of my educational journey.
There is often something to be gained from reading the notes of those who have taken the course before.

Thank you Mickey, that's nice.

Can I put it in my resume?

Yes, you certainly may. I would be most honoured if you did so, and extremely grateful if you were to send me a copy.
Your query did inspire, not a question, but a brief moment of speculation of shorter duration than the time it will take for me to write the general outline of "how it went". I'll write it out regardless, as it's currently 04:08 Pacific Daylight Saving Time, and writing it out will enable me to reduce the time I'll otherwise spend curled up sleepless in a foetal position.
A résumé, or curriculum vitae, is generally composed by an applicant for a job. It's my belief that there exist certain "callings" from which one simply does not retire, although one might possibly cease to "work" in an official capacity in exchange for remuneration. The calling of a minister of religion might be considered one such calling. I know of one man in the legal profession, well past the age when most people in the "western world" hang up their hats, who is still "at it", although officially "semi-retired" on his law firm's webpage. I'm aware of one local teacher of mathematics who is upwards of 80 years of age, who has stated neither desire nor intention of retiring. Retirement is a luxury unavailable, if not totally unknown, to the majority of the people who labour (literally and/or figuratively) under the sun. Watched a program on T.V. a few years back (might've been CNN's "Anthony Bourdain: Parts Unknown", and some elderly Sicilian woman, when asked if she did not want to retire, retorted, "And then what? Die"?
I do not believe that you're currently employed in any official or unofficial capacity (although that doesn't necessarily mean you no longer do "the thing you do".
Four hours ago I had no more than two "wee drams" of Ballantine's Finest (I didn't measure precisely, but the level in the mickey hasn't even gone down past the rounds of the shoulders). They haven't clouded my judgement, though they may have provided the lubrication for me to say (with no fear of exaggeration) that, in addition to having Living Legend status, you're the undisputed and undefeated heavyweight champion here. If there's any place worth your being on the payroll, it's they who'll solicit you. You've no need to go knocking.
Just an aside: I often can't quite tell if you've got your tongue planted firmly in your cheek, or whether you're being deadpan serious. It may be the fault of the communication medium, or it's possible I'm either dense or thick.
Sincerely and Respectfully,
Mickey
Postscript: That looks like a really good result from rice water+sulphur+salt; I believe I may try that myself, on a laminated steel knife of recent manufacture, before any keris kamardikan by Mpu Tanpa Nama. I certainly wouldn't experiment on any keris Djeno, even if I had one in need of stain.

Wikipedia, the source of all reliable information, states, "As arsenic is a natural element in soil, water, and air, the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) monitors the levels of arsenic in foods, particularly in rice products used commonly for infant food.[20] While growing, rice plants tend to absorb arsenic more readily than other food crops, requiring expanded testing by the FDA for possible arsenic-related risks associated with rice consumption in the United States.[20] In April 2016, the FDA proposed a limit of 100 parts per billion (ppb) for inorganic arsenic in infant rice cereal and other foods to minimize exposure of infants to arsenic.[20]."

Thus its seems if the key to the rice water stain process is arsenic, where the rice is grown would greatly affect the quality of the stain. So possibly the region in which this technique originated it was highly effective due to very high concentrations of arsenic in the soil. The downside is that the local population's health may have been compromised.

100 ppb is equivalent to 0.1 PPM (part per million) so a very very low concentration. Even if the arsenic content in the rice water is higher than in the rice itself, I doubt it very much that it could be sufficient for creating any warangan effect.
For comparison, the arsenic concentration in realgar (arsenic sulphide ore, the most commonly used chemicals for warangan treatment) amounts to several percents so thousands time more than in the rice (one percent is equivalent to 10,000 PPM).... :)

I agree that even possibly elevated amounts of arsenic in rice are a red herring for the salt+sulphur recipe. While the salt is acting as a corrosive agent, the stain will result from reactive sulphur compounds.

Regards,
Kai

Cupla thangs Mickey.

Number one:- I'm Aussie. In general, Aussies from my generation and before tend not to take very much, very seriously. I take a few things relatively seriously, but mostly the tongue is edging towards the cheek.

Number two:- retirement is a ticket to hell, and I'm in no hurry to get there. You stop work, you go rotten, then you die. Nobody can afford to retire.

Number three:- the "Living Legend" with all due apologies, I've never heard such nonsense. I started younger than most people, I've continued longer than most people, my debt to the true Legends who taught me is enormous. I'm no Legend, just lucky. Right time, right place, that's all.

As for the rice water stain, warangan works better. That one I've shown a picture of is better than a couple of others I tried later. Laboratory quality arsenic trioxide works best --- problem these days is that without the required qualification and certificate, you cannot get it.

Mickey, when they finally make Keris Warung Kopi: The Movie, surely you will narrate.

I ran across these directions today. Gardner says: "The keris blade is next laid in a trough containing boiling rice water, sulphur, and salt, for three or four days. This blackens the steel but scarcely touches the iron. It attacks the marks of the welds, which show as tiny etched lines. When this damascened pattern is clear, the blade is cleaned with lime juice."

Two things in that caught my attention. First was the adjective boiling rice water, not boiled or simply rice water. It made me think about Mickey's trick of boiling steel in hydrogen peroxide earlier in the thread. The second was that it blackens the steel and attacks the welds, the hardest parts of the blade. esp if the flux was something such as rice straw ash that would add carbon content to the weld line. BTW what is used for flux in Keris manufacture? Either Gardner's understanding of the parts was reversed or this treatment attacks areas of higher carbon content. That to me in one way or another is interesting. If he did misunderstand the pattern does that make his use of boiling invalid?:shrug:

Jugabuwana, did your blade ever get its second rice water bath or did the COVID pass through and life go back to its hectic normal? I'd love to see more pictures someday!

Welding in Jawa is traditionally done in teak charcoal, the material is not welded with a flux, no flux is necessary.

I do not know the process used in old Malaya.

Interesting, today I stumbled onto the tidbit that brown rice contains more arsenic than white rice. I wonder if that means arsenic would be most concentrated in the bran? In addition rices from California, India, and Thailand are lower in arsenic than most. Second postulation; if as mentioned above, the concentration of arsenic in rice is negligible maybe rice water is used for the starch content to help evenly coat the blade for the week the reaction time the rice water/sulphur/salt slurry takes to properly stain a blade.

Sort of a related question. Does anyone know how much ground realgar one would need to stain an average keris blade?

Not all realgar is equal, so the quantity required depends on the realgar, as does the result.

reviving this question

Rice water should work, in itself, not because it has starch (which certainly has) but because it contains Arsenic.

but i see other people in this thread have commented on the low amount of arsenic in rice.

Scroll down to page #19

https://aiccm.org.au/wp-content/uplo...June2007_0.pdf

There's trace amounts of arsenic in all kinds of foods, though rice has a higher amount (within the confines of safe).

Maybe the combination of sulfur and some arsenic is what does it, with sulfur acting like a kind of multiplier which allows for even small concentrations of arsenic to be effective. But this is a wild guess.

If I have some time I'd be interested to try adding some sulfur in with some ineffective realgar I bought off the internet and see if it yields a better result compared to just realgar alone, using the brush stain method.

this seems to be a possibility, along with light and temperature being the activator of the process.

There is a lot of empiricism involved in this and very little science. The person who washes my krises all of a sudden went through a phase when the warangan no longer responded en was ineffective. Now he says everything is back to normal.

I don’t think he knows why.

If rice water with minute amounts of arsenic combined to sulphur produces modest amounts of arsenic sulfide and these stain the blade even in modest amounts that may very well be the reason why the salt-sulphur method works

I was told by a friend who said that temperature of the surrounding during the time of 'washing' plays a role/part.

As stated by Alan above, not all realgar is equal. So if you guy uses realgar as his source for arsenic it is quite possible he just obtained an ineffective batch. In it's naturally sourced form there is just no consistency in strength. That is why it is great if you can get a hold of the lab quality arsenic trioxide. It will always be the same strength each and every time.

from another thread

Yeah, i noted Bob's question at the time, but don't really know anything about antimony trioxide. Apparently no one else does either as no one responded to his query.
As far as i can tell it has one great advantage over arsenic trioxide in that i believe it can be purchased by the average citizen, but the question of whether or not it works remains to be seen. It does seem to be much cheaper (and more available) than As2O3, so maybe someone here might want to do some experimentation. :)

I have cleaned rusty and heavily patinated blades ( NOT krises!) with “ Renaissance Metal de-corroder”. On top of efficacy, there is no need to use gloves.
Cover the blade generously with the gel, using reasonably narrow brush, wrap in plastic ( I used Saran Wrap) leave for 24-48 hours, unwrap, wash the gel off under faucet, dry and Â…thatÂ’s all. Rust goes away, some patina stays. Then , if satisfied, oil. I use melted Renaissance wax: when semiliquid, it gets into all scratches and crevices. If not, I would guess needs repeating or polishing.

I like mine with some patina ( kisses of time), so never had to go beyond the first step.

I have no doubt this is an effective way to clean rust Ariel. However, this current discussion is regarding the STAINING process for keris, either with warangan or some other process that will darken the iron and raise the pamor pattern, not how to remove rust. The rust removal set for keris would precede the staining process. ;)