Thank You Jim... and also thanks to Ariel. I thought to compose a quick baseline of where I think we are in regard to this weapon; Looking across the broad Bukharan connection and bearing in mind tribal flow and the Chinese linkages it seems to me that the transmission and influence is from the Bukharan sphere touching Afghanistan, India and Turkey for a variety of reasons but that the sword is in fact not of any of the nations where it has appeared.

The linkage with Mughal swords for the Turkish market is through the Ottoman preference in Bling form Mughal hilts from such centres affected by Jahangir and other Indian rulers thus a purely fashionable weapon to wear at Court...

It can be seen that no two swords shown as examples in basic form have the same construction in the hilt with dramatic differences in how the knuckle guard is fixed, leaving me to believe that these were never a commonly turned out, professional sword workshop item....more an accidental hybrid. This and the fact that actually there are only a few available to compare suggests the weapon was more a chance encounter with a forge master than a common user item.

Whilst not saying out loud that the subject may be an innocent red herring or chasing wild geese, I find topics like these fascinating as far as they go...and once in a while "tilting at windmills" is no bad thing but I think for now the topic may be somewhat exhausted and therefor as far as this, as yet, nameless sword is concerned, we are on hold, though always ready to take up the pen should fresh evidence surface.

Here is a very interesting note that I also applied to another Indian thread ..This links the influence of Mughal Court swords lavishly done in Jade and Nephrite with added precious stones in pure Jahangir "Bling" form to Ottoman fashion;
Please see https://books.google.com.om/books?i...20hilts&f=false

I point to Bukhara.
 

If I may round off by indicating where I mean by Bukhara...below. The map on the right illustrating the vast network of silk road "tributaries" ... :)

I stumbled upon this at http://www.aljantiques.com/a-bronze-...h-century.html Just the hilt... Amazing!!

Indeed.

Looks very South Indian to me.
Perhaps I might have been wrong insisting on Nortwest Frontier? :-)

On a specific area I wouldn't like to say...It does seem to lend itself to the Shashka blade... however, it seems to me that any number of sword making schools could present a similar hilt... I think that is what makes Indian sword style so difficult to crack... and we have to date only a handful of examples... but the Tunkou and knuckle guard are a fascinating combination. :)

Not too sure Ariel....it seems there have long been somewhat unclear and indeterminate in many cases ties between the Northwest and the Deccan.
It does not seem hard to imagine cross diffusion , making as Ibrahiim notes, pretty tough classification challenges.

When it rains, it pours...

Two more. No doubt: we are talking about a real , but heretofore non-described pattern

I only see one weapon as the other is at #1 ...

Black handle, white handle... :-)

This is an intriguing scenario, these compellingly similar sabres sans guard and with the 'swans neck' type knuckleguard, along with vestigial tunkou.
However it begs the question, are these effectively a 'form' or simply a number of cross influenced variant examples.

The cases of swords which are seemingly a particular form except certain components are missing, may be intended as such, or possibly examples with have lost these components.

We have seen shamshirs and various 'Ottoman bulbous hilt' sabres which have no crossguard and have asked, were there occasions where individuals preferred a sword without a crossguard? As clearly many Central Asian sabres such as shashka have been in notable favor and use without guard, would that character be chosen in altering other sword forms? Why?

We have seen the cases of tulwars with the characteristic disc pommel missing, and asked, was it deliberately removed, or simply broken or lost?
It has seemed there have been numbers of such tulwars in Afghan regions and suggestions that these discs impaired the swordsmans hand in its use.

These sabres add another page to these curious anomalies, but in their case they are clearly made in their form deliberately. The vestigial tunkou seems to me a clear nod toward Ottoman influences; the swans neck guard reflects northern India tulwars of Rajasthan and of course Afghan paluoars; and the hilts themselves the shashka and like Central Asian types.

Rather than a distinct form of sword type, this seems more a case of variant which has occurred in some number and reflecting compiled influences. It will require more instances of examples with regional provenance to establish enough consistency to declare a unique category .

Obviously, an intriguing conundrum and interesting type worthy of continued research.

TRY THIS!!

Deccan
sword
from
Vijayanagar

An unusual and rare form of South Indian sword from the Vijayanagar Empire Karnataka. The long sword blade fullered and slightly curved, possibly of European manufacture, a small makers stamp visible near the forte. Long steel blade mounts with fretted and pierced borders, the hilt of 'pistol grip' shape, steel furniture chiselled with geometric decoration(worn) and brass inlay, the ivory grips showing the great age of this sword. Dating to the 17th century.

(THE TECHNIQUE IN ENGINEERING THE KNUCKLE GUARD TO THE HILT SIMILAR TO #38 AND #43 ABOVE)

For more pictures see http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...om-vijayanagar

For The Vijayanagar Empire SEE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vijayanagara_Empire

Well done Ibrahiim!!!
Somehow does the faceted bolster remind you of a 'Khyber knife' (Siliwar) ??

Continued research= Ibrahiim!!! :)
Noticed in your last entry, then revisited your post #43.......compelling!!!
In 43, this example is intriguing as it clearly has the 'sinha' or lion head which we associate with the hilt of the kastane. While the 17th century date is in my opinion somewhat optimistic as we remain unclear on the earliest occurrence of the sinha hilt on the kastane, this coupled with the example from Karnataka, does seem to place these in Deccani context.

The diplomatic and general tribal ties between the Deccan and northern India (Afghan) regions are well established, and as seen with certain hilt features such as with the paluoar, the cross influences between these regions also seem understandable.

Is it possible that the sinha/lion head became vestigially stylized in the knob like pommel of these northern versions? We might tenuously observe that line defining the lower outline of the 'knob' being almost a jaw line! in considering such zoomorphic context.

Also found in Pant (1980, p.113, fig. 293) the tulwar hilt known as 'Marwari'. In Pant's 'system' of hilt classifications, this one is claimed to be similar overall to the 'Delhishahi' and 'Aurengzebi' forms except in the case of the knuckleguard.
In the Marwari hilt, there is a distinctly represented swans head which has a dramatic turn back form.
While Marwar was a highly commercial region in Rajasthan, it would seem that its commerce would be well known in northern areas of India (incl Afghan regions).
These Marwar hilts, in addition to the turn back swans neck, had the knuckleguard with split or cut in the center.

I would note the 'Afghan military sword' which has its distinctive split guard also with turn back of this style, and similar to that seen on these curious hilts of OP.

Hello Jim, indeed the hilt at #43 is interesting since it is Southern Indian from Tanjore. I am not sure we are looking at one form or several splinters of one form. It seems every court sword producer could and did make a variety of bling variants although in the Southern style there seems to be a constant in the way the knuckle guard joined the hilt...It does almost appear to be a zoomorphic, perhaps Yali form, or I thought possibly elephant apparently breathing out the knuckleguard and this is mirrored or at least similar in the way the Kastane is engineered.

I have identified several southern form weapons curiously similar in appearance to the shashqa and with the same join engineering knuckle guard to hilt...The trade proof is apparent across strata although one could be forgiven for making it up !! The Deccan was instrumental in the Poulouar form and coincidentally the Central Asian Bukharan exodus caused by the Russians in 1920 may have also pushed the Shashqa into Afghan areas thus fusing or influencing hilt style...Eastern style may also have entered Southern Indian design from the many trips by the Chinese to the region when Tipu Sultan was in power. Being awash with mercenaries from everywhere (including Central Asia) it need not be surprising that hybrids and variants sprang up in the Deccan.

Notwithstanding that confusion I am aware that two of the weapons although similar are called different names... The one is a bird head but the other is a pistol grip...therefor neither are technically Shashqa...because of the shape of the hilts and because they have knuckle guards. Could they both be court swords? This would possibly place them in the category ("Bling") Court Swords ...Southern India.

Superb comparisons!
I think what is most interesting here is becoming aware of the distinct link between the Afghan northwest and the Deccan, which may well account for the connection in weapon forms and styling in many cases.

Kurnool in India, now the State of Anhdra Pradesh, is situated in central India in proximity with the key locations of Hyderabad, Mysore, Bijapur, Adoni which are prevalent in Indian history. Our awareness of the Deccan has been remarkably advanced in recent times through the tenacity of the study of Indian arms scholars who have been able to define many arms within that designation.

Kurnool was once ruled by the Vijayanagara kings and later Pathan with Mughal rule through Aurengazeb from 1686. The incursions and subsequent rule of Pathans and the Afghan character of Kurnool as a princely state in the Deccan is reflected in virtually all of its rulers titled 'Khan'. This is of course the Turkic title used in Central Asia and Afghanistan.

The conduit between this Deccani state and Afghan regions to the northwest was Rajasthan in a loose geopolitical chart which would note the Mughal rule combined with Afghan elements. This may well account for the long stated instances of arms from the siege of Adoni removed to Bikaner in Rajasthan (1689), as well as the fact that Tipu Sultan of Mysore spoke Urdu, a language from the northwest, and his father ruled Hyderabad .

These are some of the factors which we may consider as we examine the curious similarities of these sabres with knuckleguard, shashka profile hilts and tunkou with Deccani attributed examples.

I must admit my understanding of the complex connections and history of these regions is admittedly not the strongest, and I would beg for corrections and input in that regard. However, I felt it important to bring these to attention here in the thread for further review.

Undoubtedly the influx of the so-called : "basmatch" fighters from Central Asia into Afghanistan brought with it a quantity of local weapons.

But even before that, and for centuries, the border between the two was symbolic only. The entire North Afghanistan was and still is populated by Uzbeks and Tajiks, entire families happily resided both here and there, and caravans crossed Pyandj back and forth as often than Greyhound buses between Michigan and Ohio:-)

The so-called "Afghani military pseudoshashkas" appeared well before Russian Civil War and the ensuing communist takeover of Central Asia, and the "Bukharan pseudoshashkas" even earlier.

The above examples are even older.

I am just trying to hammer in the idea that we are talking about a distinct pattern and not a hodge-podge of random features accidentally thrown together, and Ibrahiim's examples just increase the critical mass above which that conclusion will be inescapable.

Clearly, this sword pattern existed in the South, but the inspiration must have come from the North ( tunkou). I suspect we are seeing here actual examples from both locations, but just do not have enough information on how to separate their individual origins...

We will, eventually. We have witnessed enough examples of total mysteries that were eventually solved in a span of 2-3 days. Remember Baluch/Sindh sabers with a peculiar pommel and wire-wrapped langet? :-)))

Well noted Ariel, and it seems pretty clear that swords of this type certainly date much farther back than these geopolitical events of the 20th century.
We have been discussing the weapons of Central Asia for so many years now, and your knowledge on these and the history of these regions has been quite nearly legion here, so your input is extremely important.

I think however, that the inclusion of numbers of weapons types and from various contexts with similar key features is helpful in investigating the many possibilities which present themselves in these conundrums. The examples Ibrahiim has been presenting give us good perspective as we consider many potential scenarios.
Not all discovery in such matters is entirely empirical, as was well expressed by Dr. Albert Szent-Gyorgyi;
" ...discovery is seeing what everybody else has seen,
and thinking what nobody else has thought".

I know that many times over the years, I have been taken to task for many of my ideas and theories in similar queries in discussions, often seen as fanciful or 'fantasy'. However I believe in testing every possibility regardless, and have always welcomed supported rebuttal which would remove them as required from material compiled toward effective resolution in these queries.

Indeed, some of our 'mysteries' here have been solved in a few days, many took years, and you and I have been here through most all of them! I often marvel at how much has been accomplished here in learning on these arms, and it is exciting to keep going.

We indeed will conquer this one as well.
On another note, on the Baluch/Sindh sabres.....which were these ?

In considering the Zoomorphic Elephant head and trunk forming the knuckleguard and how it is joined to the hilt ...I propose that the sword may be linked to those directly involved in the war elephant role... The sword is lightweight but effective perhaps as a secondary weapon thus it may be an Archers sword... or that of a pike-man seen on the elephants back... An Elephant Crew members sword !

Hello Jim, Sindh Hyderabad ... I was just looking for the same detail ....Please see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21555

Thank you Ibrahiim for that link! Now I recall these interesting sabres which were in my view after rereading the posts and evidence, clearly from the Baluch-Sind regions and probably Hyderabad. It has always been confusing that there is a Hyderabad in these northern (now Pakistan) regions.....as well as the notable part of the Deccan further south.
Many references denote 'Hyderabad' without specifying which is meant.

For me a most telling feature in these Baluch-Sind sabres is the ring or loop in the pommel. As noted in the discussion, these are as far as known, not an affectation on Arab swords. Interesting comparison was pointing out the groups of rings present on Omani khanjhar scabbards,

Returning to the original topic, again it is most interesting to see the wider spectrum of these type sabres, which seem to have been prevalent quite extensively in the south, that is Deccan. However, there appear to be some compelling similarities in hilts further south, which have features, , many zoomorphic, even as far as those featured on the familiar kastane.

Zoomorphics in ethnographic weapons are of course often highly stylized, and debate on what particular creature is represented are often the case with western perceptions.

Regarding the elephant as such a feature intended in these hilts is as far as I can imagine, not likely. Primarily the elephant is represented zoomorphically only in the regions of Gujerat and Bhuj in notable degree. I believe that representation had to do more with regal or dynastic leitmotif with the elephant in rather exalted standing.
Zoomorphic features were not intended as insignia denoting weapons to certain groups of military or other functions in any notable instance I am aware of.
While the 'gooseneck' feature did represent the swan in cases where the head was represented fully, and the serpentine Makara or dragon head as well.....the elephant trunk I don't believe was a part of such motif.

Hello Jim, The ring in the Sinde Hilt is interesting although nothing to do with the Omani Khanjar rings which are double the size and involved in the way the Omani Khanjar is constructed. The clue to what these terminal rings on the Sinde swords is for is at #18, second picture, of the Sinde sword thread where it can be seen that it is for a wrist strap.

What is also interesting, however, is the wire wrap which terminates in a special knot...Perhaps "The Omani Knot"... present in all Omani Shamshiir including the presentation sword to Stanley by Sultan Bargash and covered at Omani Shamshiir on Forum...of the same style of silver wire used on Omani Khanjars.

I looked at the knuckle guard and perceived the elephant trunk as clearly visible emanating from a raised shoulder geometry like an arch, I thought was an elephantine head... most noticeable in the Bling birdhead example though present in others to lesser degree... Pushing the envelope I point to the Kastane as illustrative of mixed Zoomorphic form often showing elephants partial trunk folded back over the head in short form and illustrating the multiple animalistic form of the hilt; part land and part sea creature with a peacocks tail and feet of a pig, head of a sea Makara / elephant, body and occasionally head of a crocodile and several other ancient creatures.

Either way and ignoring my brilliant idea for the Elephant crew sword :) I see similar form...the appearance of the knuckleguard shaped like an elephants trunk as emanating from some sort of creatures mouth...possibly a variant of the Yali concept... and ending as a bud design...

In respect of the links between Deccan, Afghanistan and Central Asia; Clear involvement was direct between the Deccan and Central Asia as well as between the Deccan and Afghan regions..though my 1920 involvement between the last ruler of Bukhara and his exile to Afghanistan should not be taken out of context...as the whole melting pot including Turkomen, Tajic and Hazzara (the 1,000 men left behind in Afghanistan by Ghengis Khan) illustrates. Bukhara at the centre of Central Asia and the ancient city of Kabul in Afghanistan were of course also astride one of the greatest trade routes in history; The Silk Road. Thus, they were all trading with each other and/or politically entangled for several centuries.

One more of the type, sold recently in the UK. The auction description:
"Unusual Indian Sword, 17th Century, fitted with a European rapier type double edge blade flared towards the hilt, iron flange and tang, two-piece ivory grips with pointed pommel. Blade 33"

Extremely unusual to see this type hilt, faceted bolster in Central Asian/ Khyber/Afghan style with a European rapier blade. By the photos it would seem of course a far more modern fabrication than 17th c., though the blade likely is that.
It seems hilts of this style, even with the anomalous 'tunkou' feature, occur in Southern India in Karnataka and even as far as Tanjore according to what has been shared earlier in this discussion

It does seem that with the volume of European blades arriving with Mahratta traders in these 17th c and earlier times, there were quite a few rapier blades, and many of these were mounted in khanda and patas as well as in cut down use in other weapons.

As far as I have known, there has never been any particular favor toward the narrow rapier blades in the northern, Central Asian regions, so this may be a traditional anomaly in the south.

I agree with Jim that the whole type have most probably a South Indian origin.
Of course, one cannot tell when the "rapier" sword was mounted, but it isn't a modern combination either, judging by the wear and the overall codition.

Hello Jim,

OTOH, this apparently well-aged hilt seems to be of genuine northern (rather than southern) Indian form including the minute notch at the underside of the gripping area. Thus, I'd be inclined to believe that this piece originates from the Mughal sphere of influence.

Not my area of expertise though, just my 2 rupees...

Regards,
Kai

I have heard many times following: when an item has North and South Indian features, it can originate from Deccan.

Although I have covered the subject at #51 I will place the main detail again since \I think we have a clear idea where this weapon comes from viz;

(The additional sword above is very interesting although I cannot be certain if the blade is European or an old Indian blade ground down? It is a fascinating development.)

Considering the previous posts I think the form is probably Deccani but similar forms developed or were influenced further north and variants based on a generally Bukharan style may be found in a greater area in Central Asia.

The origin of form, however, I think is placed at post #51 and on the reference http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...om-vijayanagar a Deccani weapon Quote "An unusual and rare form of South Indian sword from the Vijayanagar Empire Karnataka".Unquote.

Pictures below. :shrug:

Yes Ibrahiim, you are right about the Deccani origin! I have found an interesting article from a very knowledgeable person on a 18thC Deccani dagger.

“This dagger could easily be Northern, but the decoration definitely hints to the Deccan. Most people tend to think anything with silver, or anything not typically Mughal is Deccani, but this style of decoration definitely veers South.
I have always thought that generally (and I do mean generally, as this cannot be used as a rule of thumb) that Persian influenced Indian work tends to be Mughal and Northern, and pieces that link more to early Ottoman work tend to be Deccani.
On this particular dagger, the style of splayed floral work, with jagged edges is seen quite often on early Deccani work, and even earlier Ottoman textiles and art. The decoration on the dagger is not exactly this kind of work, but the similarities are definitely there. The dagger is cruder in style, so definitely not of the earlier period (but, decoration aside, the dagger form itself is not too early). Also, if you look at the line that runs down the inside handle, and has a squiggly decoration inside. This kind of work, thinly laid onto crude cross-hatching had always been reminiscent of later northern (Punjabi) work, but it also annoyingly kept cropping up on early Ottoman work (some armour, and a few examples of maces). ”

The following pictures illustrate the text above.
"First image is Ottoman, and an almost edible textile of the late 16th/early 17thC. You can clearly see the influences of the later Deccani blazons which decorated all art, but most especially the bidri work. The other 4 images are Deccani, and mostly of the 17thC. Last one is a jade hilt. the rest are bidriware."

Hello Tatyana,

Your pics are out of sync with the text. You can determine the order by separately uploading them one by one! (No need to close the attachment window - just hit upload after selecting each pic...)

BTW, I'd also suggest to also give the name of the person you're quoting for future reference.

Regards,
Kai

This one is Ottoman, the rest are Deccani.
The quote is from a private communication, and I am not sure if I should give the name without the author's permission...

Pseudo Shashka ...Is there such a thing?
 

Forum Library References;
A. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/search...earchid=843812
B. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=SHASHKA
C. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=SHASHKA
D. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=SHASHKA
E. Or simply type in Shashka to Search for a full list of threads and select.




Salaams Tatyana Dianova ~ I agree entirely with that. As a side issue however, I am unsure if your straight bladed weapon is a South Indian derivative or a replaced blade on a Northern style ...if it in fact is a replacement and not simply a worn down blade. Nonetheless it is a fascinating subject.

In this regard I wish to play "The Devils Advocate" and speak for the weapon in what I believe is its correct role as a South Indian Sword. In this respect I invite comments.

A South Indian project sword shown below comprises a few simple parts viz; Hilt, Knuckleguard, Knuckleguard base, Tunkou and Blade. Taking each part separately I will describe how each item belongs to a South Indian form. For this exercise I omit significant blade detail since it is impossible when trying to close in on a typography of regional description as Indian sword blades migrate all over the spectrum but base my assumptions on the other parts, however, I add a photo showing what I believe could have been the technique in broad terms of using this thin cyclic technique slashing blade behind a Buckler ...The technique is present in South Indian martial arts today.

Thus I describe ~

1. Hilt I select a similar hilt from the arsenal of South Indian weapons for comparison; The Pichangeti Dagger... See Picture below. This hilt is unlike Shashka form since it is birdhead or pistol grip form and although Mughal weapons with similar hilts were purchased by Othmanli court buyers the form was never transmitted to Shashka or other swords to the North...and since the Shashka hilt never went the other way....we are looking at a regional Southern Indian form only.

Note that great power can be transmitted through the weighted hilt with a heavy pommel counterbalance to a thin curved blade in the downward strike and naturally the weapon was not effective in the thrust particularly against armour..I assume that great speed was essential and that slashing cuts were the order of the day where moves were enacted around the Buckler style shield underlining the speed factor of this technique.

2. Knuckleguard No sword of the Shashka type has one..but that typically the finial being Lotus bud form is Indianwhich means that when sheathed, this weapon sits differently in the scabbard whereas the Shashka embeds right up to its pommel ... The project weapon has a knuckleguard thus sits differently in its scabbard.

3. Knuckleguard and base See below photos showing the elephant zoomorphology WITH ears, teeth and a trunk !! The basic shape may be present in other regions hilt base designs but no other region shows the foundation as an elephant head which would point to this being not only Indian but regional Indian....and certainly not absorbed out of Ottoman Bukharan or Afghan theatres.

4. Tunkou Relations with China were ongoing in many regions of India indicating that the transition of Tunkou to this weapon happened through trade and showing that other southern weapons also may have Tunkou design transfer such as on Kastane etc.

5. Blade showing a simple picture of how flimsy bladed weapons were used ...of this nature... behind a Buckler..

😎 In conclusion; the project sword is neither Pseudo nor Shashka but is a specific South Indian Sword design which evolved solely in Southern India and is unrelated to Afghan, Bukharan, Caucasian, Persian or other miscellaneous Shashka types except distantly by vague and unrelated accidental look alike factors not attributable or traceable to this weapon.

Pictures Below are~

1. Pichangeti showing both the rounded Pistol grip and Birdhead variety of South India.
2. Shashka Form Hilt.
3. A highly ornate gold and black South Indian example showing the zoomorphic elephant head; ears and mouth with trunk (as the knuckleguard) and missing Lotus bud finial.
4. A Project Sword; from Ashok Arts.
5. High speed sword work with flimsy curved blades and knuckleguards behind Buckler Shields.
6. Map showing regions of South India.
7. How the Shashka sits in its scabbard.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Beautifully formatted, illustrated and linked entry Ibrahim! and presents a fascinating array of considerations as we look more into these curious anomalies.

Before continuing I would like to address the intriguing but unfortunate title on this thread, which refers to the sword of the original post, and as I believe has been mentioned, has nothing to do with the 'shashka' type sabre. The term 'psuedo' as has been discussed is even more misplaced and seems has been tempting us 'down the garden path'.

The examples you have posted with the guardless character and similar features, most expressly the 'tunkou', offer keen insight into others which seem to fall into this spectrum, and appear to have southern India provenance.

I would suggest that this feature on the blade of the weapon of the OP, is not actually a tunkou at all, but more aligned with the decorative lobed palmette cuffs seen on many Deccani daggers, which extend in the manner of a langet over the blade root under the guard or base of hilt.

The shape of this hilt, seems primarily to align with the Mughal daggers, often of kard form, of the northern areas, and typically have the faceted bolster at the base of the grip and are guardless. These have the same lobed or flueret style cuff extending over the back of the blade across and in the same asymmetrical diagonal configuration basically as the 'tunkou' of earlier swords and many Chinese dao.

What is interesting in Tatyana's example posted, is that this feature exists below the faceted bolster, essentially an incongruent blend of 'north and south'! The faceted bolster of Persian and Central Asian Mughal north, and the palmette type cuff of Deccani south, hybridized with a rapier blade.

It is important here to note that the 'tunkou' or for that matter, even the palmette type cuff or langet Mughal items, much in the manner of the tunkou on yataghans or Ottoman weapons, seems to have had stylistic importance beyond any pragmatic purpose.

In many weapons, koftgari applications are added to blades in exactly the same shapes, decoration and location at the blade root or ricasso to vestigially represent this key feature. I recall a M1788 British cavalry sabre blade mounted on a Deccani tulwar (shamshir type hilt) which had this vestigial tunkou koftgari applied in exactly this manner.

The idea of rapier blades is not new to the southern regions in India, in fact such type blades are seen on early iconography. However, the use and popularizing of the European rapier blades seems to have become most notable during the British presence in the 18th c.
It is tempting to consider this may be an atavistic piece which follows the accord with the daggers of the north and in degree the south, using a blade repurposed to the rapier form in traditional interpretation.

With the other examples of these types, as Ibrahiim has well posted, there are great opportunities to examine the climate of their development. While the scrolled knuckleguard is well present in many hilts to the north, in some reading it does seem that Welch does consider this style to have moved to the north from southern origins (noted in 'Arms of the Muslim Knight' p.201).

Interesting insightes Jim - as usual from your side!

By Jim McDougall It is important here to note that the 'tunkou' or for that matter, even the palmette type cuff or langet Mughal items, much in the manner of the tunkou on yataghans or Ottoman weapons, seems to have had stylistic importance beyond any pragmatic purpose.

Salaams Jim, It could be that regarding Tunkou we are looking at a Red Herring. My take on the wrap is that it adds more weight to the power end of the blade and that it secures the weapon in the scabbard far better preventing it from rattling around or falling out.
Thanks for your informative reply..

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Interesting thread!

In my humble opinion, the "tunkou" also helps much in reducing the nasty vibrations of the blade when you hit in the wrong manner. This protects the hand and the blade. But I can be wrong. If you don´t want to risk an old sword to test it, try it with a long machete.
Regards

Salaams, I refer to #17 and its main reference when equating Indian swords to Chinese. I would temper that with what Jim has said about Tunkou.
My main reference is http://thomaschen.freewebspace.com/custom3.html

The article notes a fashion in Chinese swords and close ties with sword influence going both ways. Swords made in Beijing were exported to India after 1761 . Further ..a common description amongst Chinese sword design was the pistol grip which is essentially the same as the bird head or parrot head hilt. Note also the practice of cutting grooves in the blade and inserting pearls which roll up and down the grooves; This is a direct copy from Indian blades of that form; Tears of the wounded (afflicted)

Shown in addition is the trend in Indian blades; both sword and dagger, of decorating the throat with a cartouche done in Koftgari form but that in the project sword this is of Tunkou style essentially a reinforcement plate giving support to the hilt and enabling a tighter fit for the blade into the scabbard....something koftgari design does not do...nor was it designed to.

I accept as Gonzalo points out that the wrap would also have reduced heavy vibration through to the sword hand and as I point out the practical idea that the blade would fit better and more snugly into the scabbard...also noted in #17.

Given that in the late 1700s Chinese swords were exported to India it stands to reason that the Tunkou was in fact part of this design imported on these weapons but turned the other way...perhaps to satisfy Indian taste from purely an aesthetic viewpoint as it looked better? Whilst it seems logical it is understood that nothing is certain in this regard and that it may be down to simple design drift and this is simply parallel development or pure chance...and may be how some swords in the South were designed...Kastane often have a similar wrap.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hello Ibrahiim,
Could you please give us a few references to the Chinese export of blades/weapons to India?
Jens

Whilst I search for that please see https://books.google.com.om/books?id...XPORTS&f=false which outlines the goods including sword blades that were exported to China from India in 1793.


* Ho & Bronson 2004 p111
"... the [Qianlong] emperor appears to have been quite fond of non-traditional curved sabers of the Indian and Middle Eastern type, often furnished with jade hilts carved in the Indian Mughal style. Some were imitations made in the imperial armory in Beijing."

* Ho & Bronson 2004 p114 f127
"Qianlong ordered a total of sixty ceremonial curved swords on five occasions, in 1748, 1757, 1779, 1793, and 1795. Each sword was named and numbered, and all were identical in length, weight, and basic design. The scabbards were made either of red or green stingray skin and or patterned bark. The swords differed in terms of their inlaid details and the style of the hilts. Hilts made after completion of the 1757 batch were mostly in Mughal style, often with gold and inlaid gems."Unquote.

Thank you very much, and it is quite interesting that the trade went both ways - from very early times.
I know of three dagger blades all with the same decoration, one at a museum in China, one in the MET and one in my collection.
Of these two have a pistol grip, and the one in the MET has a grip with a horse head - but all have a stone hilt.