We need to be precise in our definition of the question: are we asking whether European bladed were USED of PREFERRED?

The USE is indisputable. The PREFERENCE is unprovable: it depended on personal circumstances of the owner ( individual or his sovereign). We cannot get into heads of people dead for 200-300 years. Limited number of individual opinions or testimonies cannot reflect prevailing attitude of the entire society. Moreover, such individual snippets are reasonably evenly divided between pros and cons. This is a dead end.

Were European blades POPULAR in India? But of course. Wre Indian blades popular among the Europeans? Not very. Was it because of their quality or simply because EIC or (later) The Crown supplied their British soldiers with regulation, British-made, weapons? Probably both.

The reference to Rawson re. Basket Hilt misses the point: it is a mix of a modified Old Indian hilt and a European D-guard. It is the latter that largely transformed the older version into a new pattern. Elgood discussed ~ 12th century ( have no book nearby) temple depiction of warriors wielding swords with D-guards ( i.e. well before the contact with the Portugese), but doubts them because there are no ancient actual examples. I am a bit uneasy with that, but can't argue with the fact: no similar feature prior to 16th century is known. In general, I would hesitate using Rawson as the final evidence: his book is full of statements that are no longer considered valid by the contemporary body of knowledge. Suffice it to say that he did not know the difference between wootz and mechanical damascus. He should get full credit as the author of the first systematic book on Indian swords, but his materials and conclusions are significantly outdated and cannot be viewed as 100% reliable without further confirmation. Well, this is the fate of almost every book :-)

You are most welcome Richard! It was as always very much my pleasure.:)

Actually I think Ariel has summed this up perfectly in his last post.
The differences between use and preference as well as the diversity of one of the most complex subcontinents in so many aspects. Indeed we cannot know what was in the minds people in this hugely broad spectrum over considerable time and vast regions.
I know the question was directed at finding written evidence in the literature but again , it will vary considerably depending on circumstances as shown.

I can not agree. As for me, I know what was in the mind of admiral Angria in Maharashtra in the beginning of 18th :-)

I think Ariel is right.
Someone told me years ago, that my European logic way of thinking was wrong. The Indians did not think in the same way. It took me very long time to understand this, and although I am far from sure that I have understood it fully, I think that I have understood part of it.
The logic we use in the western part of the world to day, can not be compared to the logic the Indians would have used centuries ago.
Their religious tiers were strong, and the supersticion was very strong.
We sit in our sofas in front of the TV, and try to decide what the Indians thought centuries ago - do you think that is research?

That is wonderful! I very much admire your confidence in the narrative by Mr. Grose, and it seems quite apparent that Admiral Angria did not like English blades, or that was what was perceived by the narrator or perhaps whatever source he used (Im not sure if Grose was there when he said this).

I think Jens explained 'perception' from culture to culture if not in different times alone extremely well. I have personally always been most impressed by Jens' profoundly restrained approach to research and fact finding and realizing the boundaries we must often recognize as we proceed .

That is why I prefer the descriptions of eyewitnesses. Preferably the cross descriptions.

I think we have flogged this horse enough. The questions have been answered to the satisfaction of every reasonable person and we are just repeating ourselves.

I am very appreciate for your excellent search through the secondary sources and good generalization of all known information. I agree with Jens too.
But I only wanted to know if some of the travelers or authors of the court chronicles right mentioned that Indians prefered the European blades. I haven't been able to find it.

We will "flog the horse" after publication one more questionable article based on the wretched sources. In some cases it is not enough to write simply "in fact" sagely.

Flogging of horses...
 

From our rarely read rules page:We appear to have recently accumulated several threads with persistent arguments. Members need to be able to state their on-topic opinions and observations without being subjected to undue sarcasm or riposte. If you disagree with opinions and observations of another member, state such and your reasons in a non-personal manner. Ask for 'references' and further proofs of others if you must, but once only in a very polite manner.

Many thanks, Lee. I have understood. But I will hope that moderators will react not only to my posts with answers.

A good question and i think, that an european blade has an exotic flair for an Indian warrior.
What i can say from my own collection is, that a well made pattern welded Indian sword easily reaches european quality in toughness and flexibility but with a higher sharpness.
Many of the famous Indian wootz-blades (woodgrain wootz) are trash from the technical point of view compared to european blades or well made Indian pattern welded steel.

Roland

I find that Roland comes with an interesting view on the subject.
The excotic interest for foreign blades.
The foreign armies did win a lot of battles in India, so their blades must have been better.
Only later the Indians found out, that it was not only the blades - but the battle decipline/orginasitation that mattered.

If not good with the references, let's get statistically. How many Indian sabres and swords with European blades do we know? I think 20-30 percent of the total. And what the Indians preferred?

Percentage and preference cannot necessarily be correlated when availability is a factor.

In any case, given that references have been something of a theme in this thread, I think a somewhat more empirical evaluation is required than a guesstimate of 20-30%. 20% of how many examples?

I don't know. Everyone is speculating and I began the same. :shrug:

Taking an approach grounded in extant examples is never a bad thing and worth pursuing. I hope you can take the time to put some numbers together. I for one always enjoy reading primary research.

However, beyond the pure figures of European and none European blades it is necessary to consider factors such as:

a) region

b) the European trade links in place within that region

c) Blade production in the region which could influence the potential market for European imports

d) Political relationships with European trade partners within that region

And of course a host of other factors. I really dislike the sort of generalization such as "what the Indians preferred" given the size of the India not just in population but diversity. A question of the type proposed at the start of this thread requires a certain level of nuance.

Certainly I and I would hope the majority of readers and participants of this thread, advocate a grounded study of extant examples over the single, anecdote that started this thread. Although certainly using period accounts as supportive material.

Very good Iain, but there is another thing which should be taken up as well, and that is, that many blades were used for generations due to family threads - very important to them.

Iain and Jens,

You put your collective finger right on the proverbial button: work of that sort requires solid acquaintance with principles of methodology of scientific analysis. Without it people can describe material objects, but are incapable of formulating answerable questions, interpreting existing information , analyzing their own data and reaching defensible conclusions.

If you have not already read this essay you should, it is from the book titled "Sultans of the South: Arts of India's Deccan Courts, 1323-1687" By Navina Najat Haidar, Marika Sardar, 2011.

"Swords in the Deccan in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries: their manufacture and the influence of European imports" by Robert Elgood.

https://books.google.com/books?id=iW...page&q&f=false

Estcrh, many thanks! Very good article. The real research. I admit everything that was said there :-)

Yes, many interesting facts and quotes, how about this one.

Great link, great info. Thank you so much for sharing.

Estcrh:

Many thanks for the article. Finally, we have a well-researched review for our information and education. No more fantasies, reliances on "personal logic", poorly translated citations of citations and the rest of pseudo-scientific junk. This article neatly resolves all issues raised in this discussion.


I was unaware of this article and wish to express my gratitude to you.

Dear Ariel
I totally agree with you. This was enough:

Well done Estcrh!!!:)

Those lines perfectly respond to the original theme here. The rest of the discussion neatly describes the variables surrounding it, but this is an excellent on topic resolution.

Salaams estcrh and All, I have seldom seen such a brilliant report in a paper that uncovers the secrets of Indian sword production and the mirage of the European makers...and with a vast Bibliography in support. I need to read it again ...thus its place is now firmly in Forum Library...so it can be held up and viewed at will and hopefully referred to in the many debates on Indian weapons. This paper is an Ethnographic Gem.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I also vote for the permanent placement of this article in the Forum Library.




Good initiative, Ibrahim!!!

Ibrahiim, agreed and a good idea!!!

I sent a formal request to Andrew to include this chapter in our common library.

I suspect ther will be no "nays" :-)

Everybody, have a great weekend!

Wow...this really digs into it. What I like about it the most is it puts it in the context of free market competition. A lot of discussion on this tends to put forward the idea that every one at a certain time felt a certain way for a very specific reason. But these were people. They were just as dynamic in their thoughts and sentiments as us.

It reminds me of this one time at the flea when I sold someone a purse I made. They said what they really appreciate about it is that it's American made. And the only response I had for her was "yeah, but my tools are made in China". And we were both sort of like 'it can't be helped'. And we both just kind of smiled and shrugged. It is what it is....Point being I think that it's easy to put these peoples lives and culture into a narrative and forget that our situation with imports vs. domestic and how we might treat it or feel about it is nothing new.

But beyond the outlying thrust of this article. There are a lot of small interesting and helpful things in this article. Looks like we could get as lot of good terminology from this. for instance the possibility of referring to imported blades into India as "Jahaji". Much like we already refer to the ornate gilding on some pieces as "Koftgari".

I am sure this is going to be one of those reads where every time you go through it again you find another layer of value to it.

Ariel, you have PM.

an katar with an solingen blade
 

hi guys,( and girls..Tatyana)
here are one of my latest purchases. it is one of the swords form the wagner collection. an very beautifull katar sword with an phantastic solingen blade. it was an very old dream from me to own some time such an sword. the blade was marked at the one side with " in solingen" and at the other side with the name
" knegt" i asked in the solingen sword museum for more informations about these smith. they answerd me that these sword comes from an old solingen swordmakerfamily. one member of these familiy was Peter Knecht who worked in the middle of the 17th. ct. and the signature and the pattern form these sword show all features that it comes from these date and also maybe from these important smith.
for me it is unbelievable that these blades find in these time the way to india. it would be intrested to know how much was the price for such an blade in germany in these time and what was the value for the same blade in india.

Congratulations :-)
I am glad that you got it - and I am only a wee bit envious - but only a bit :-).

It is a great piece, and as katars are close to my heart, I do understand why you bought it :-).

Very good pictures btw.

Jens

Beautiful! Do not know how much you paid for it, but it is worth every penny.
Enjoy it!!!

The influence of Europan swords in the Deccan
 

Chapter finally extracted from a large PDF book. As it contains vital information for sword collectors in general, it is already included in the European section 'Classics'. Ian will see that it will also be held in the Ethno 'Classics'.

A new thread for the purpose was started:


http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...808#post197808

I was lucky enough to see that exhibit when it was at the Met. I would highly recommend that book on a number of different levels above and beyond just the topic at hand here. I know museum books can be expensive years after the exhibit, and I have no idea about the availability of this one, but if you have any interest in Indian arms, especially South Indian, it will be a terrific reference.

Dralin, this is one of the most enticing examples I have seen in some time of these Indian katar/swords with this example seeming to correspond to Deccani forms (naturally I would defer to Jens for more accurate details) .
It seems to be most unusual for these to be open with arm bands rather than with the gauntlet typical of pata.

I am most curious about the information from Solingen on the Knecht attribution to 17th century. All the resources I have (Gardner, Boeheim, Demmin, Kinman, Wallace Coll, Bezdek et al) indicate the earliest Knecht was c. 1770 in Solingen, and Wallace Coll. shows (p. 268) that the family were trading in swords rather than mfg them.
However, in my opinion the name stamp and accompanying marks including the anchor and others including IN SOLINGEN, look very much 17th century .
Therefore perhaps this blade is to an unrecorded (at least in the sources I note) example of this maker.

It is known that in the early 17th century the Indian market was profoundly inundated with European blades, with other Solingen examples such as the well known ANDREA FERARA represented at confirmed dates c. 1620s so this may be a most important blade, the magnificent example it is mounted in not withstanding!!

Very well done Dralin, congratulations, and thank you for a most valuable entry and sharing it here with us!

All best regards
Jim

Jim, I was wondering if the "arm bands" may have been added at a later date? The hilt as well could be older than the blade as in this type of katar existing blades could be easily removed and a new one inserted as the blade is just riveted in place. A very nice example though.

Well observed !! and absolutely that may be the case, and I remain perplexed at this inscription .
Even looking at the Wallace Collection catalog, there are many very old hilts paired with later blades, lending to the idea of either heirloom hilts being refurbished with newer blades or any number of ersatz possibilities.