Hi Miguel,

Hindu Arms and Ritual. Eburon Achademic Publishers, 2015. Page 83. Robert Elgood shows the attached and writes.

"Gana holding a sword. Mahishamardini cave Temple. Mamallapuram Pallava. Mid-seventh century.
Ganas were diminitive gods or attendants who served as arms bearers for the great gods. The square 'cussion' pommel, invariable made of wood in later examples, is already evident as is the forward curved blade which continues in use for centuries, the late form being the sosan pattah."

So not only does he show a very early example, but he also tells why the man is so small.

Hi Jens,

Fascinating, if that doesn't look like a Khukri nothing does, it convinces me even more that that the Khukri form originated from India. The image also reminded me of the Ayda Katti the weapon of the Coorgs (Kodava people) who, as you know, are in South West India. Apparently this weapon did not appear until the 17thC a century later than the oldest known Khukri which means that up to 10 centuries passed from the weapon shown on the carving to the finding of the Khukri. Thank you once again for sharing this information, it is most appreciated and keeps my appetite whetted.
Kind regards
Miguel

You are welcome.
About the size of the weapon we can only guess, but if the man is a dwarf like Elgood says, and if the proportions are correct, and if we (guessing) say the man was 130 cm tall the sword must have been about 75 cm long. This is all guessing, but it is likely to have been quite big.

It is possible that the Adya Katti developed from such a sword/dagger, but from which kind of weapon did the weapon Elgood shows develop?

I do hope you will take up the challange and start to research it, and tell us to which conclusion you come.

Jens

Hi Jens,

I will do my best but before that I need to scratch an itch which started when I saw the image from Elgood and that is to discover where the Coorgs originated from before they settled in the mountain area of south west India.
Kind regards
Miguel

Hi Chris,
I now have my repaired PC back thank goodness. I have tried to get a better photo of the blade mark but without success, probably due to my ineptitude with the camera, sorry we will have to make do with the one weve already got.
Regards
Miguel

Miguel,
I have read about it not so long ago, so I may be able to find out where I read it. Maybe one of my books will help me. When I find out I will let you know.
Jens

This has developed into a very interesting thread, thank you all!!

Not to worry Miguel,

Pleased to hear your PC has made a full recovery.

I will try to enhance the image we already have and work from that. My search continues, when time allows!

Best wishes,

Chris

The Mahishamardini cave Temple it at the east coast of India - but you no doubt know that. Coorg is, as you know, on the west coast of India, so the two places are very far apart.
The weapon shown by Elgood could be related to the adya katti, but it seems to be closer related at the kukri. How?
I think the answer will found be in studying the early Indian history of this area.

Hi Jens, Thank you for the information. I agree that the weapon on the carving looks more like the Khukri than the Ayda Katti but to me there is some resemblance between the two, anyway I take your point and will carry on with my research.

Hi Chris, Thanks for the reply and hope you can discover more about the stamp.
Kind regards
Miguel

Miguel,
I dont know if you have Elgood's book Hindu Arms and Ritual, but on page 234 under Ayudha katti he writes. " Used all over Tamil Nadu and Sri Lanka where they continue to have an agricultural use."
It is the first time I have seen this, and unfortunately Elgood doesn't write when that was.
The mentioning of Sri Lanka is interresting, as the dwarf with the 'kukri' is from the east coast of India and 7th century - and this leads me to recommend the following book.
Majumdar, R. C.:Suvarnadvipa – Hindu Colonies of the Far East. Vol. I-II. 1937. Cosmo Publications, reprint 2004.
It is the story about how the Indian Hindu princes colonised the countries to the east of India between the 8th and 11th century.

I wish you good luck with your reseach

The auction for this one recently ended, nobody bid on it. It was described as a "Ayda Katti" from the Malabar Coast. I *think* the blade is downward curving? It's hard to tell which edge is sharpened. From the orientation of the hilt I'd imagine it'd be hard to wield if it was upward curving.

blue lander,
I wonder why no one bought it?
The edge is on the straight underside. This is a Hindu adya katti, but the Muhamedans also had a weapon like it called moplah knife.
According to Stone, Egerton called the Muhamedan knife for an adya katti, so that may be why there is some confusion about the names.

I also wonder why no one bid for it as it seems in quite good condition. You are right about the names, the weapon of the Malabar coast is called a Moplah and the war sword of the Coorgs is the Ayda Katti. I read something the other week on what the name Ayda Katti meant but I don't remember what it said but I will try and find the article again and let you know.
Thank you again Jens for taking the time out to share with me some of your knowledge, it is greatly appreciated.
Kind regards
Miguel

Miguel,
It is sometimes referred to as War Knife.
Jens

Hi Jens/

I was mistaken when I said that I had read something about the meaning of Ayda Katti, it was the anglicised name for the Kavada people , i.e. Coorg, I was getting mixed up with so apologies for that. I seem to have become hooked on the Kavada people at the moment and am looking into their early origins as these may possibly throw a bit more light on the weapon in the sculpture.

I almost forgot, I understood the Pichangetti to be the knife and the Ayda Katti the sword?
Kind regards
Miguel :confused:

Hi Migiel,

Yes the Pichangetti is a Coorg utility knife, and can be found if many varities.

I find your interest in the early Coorgs is very/most interesting, and I do hope that you will go on with your research, as very much rsearch still need to be done.

All the best

Jens

Hi Miguel:

You have chosen a very interesting topic with the Kodava (Coorg) people. They are quite distinct from the majority of Indians in their ethnicity and culture, and have a long martial history. They have featured prominently in the Indian military establishment, and I think the C-in-C of the Indian Army was a Coorg not long back. They are known for their martial skills.

Good luck with your research on the origins of these people. There have been many, many theories and several books written on the subject. Perhaps the most colorful notion is that they are descended from some of the troops who fought for Alexander the Great and stayed on in India.

I look forward to reading what you find out.

Regards,

Ian.

Thanks Jens it is a most interesting subject which will probably take forever and still not be conclusive.
Kind regards
Miguel

Hi Ian it's a bit like a drug the more you delve the more you want to delve further.
Thanks for the encouragement.
Miguel

Miguel,

I think I have something for you.
Robert Elgood: Hindu Arms and Ritual, page 86, illustrations 8.21, 8.22 and 8.23.
Elgood writes that the pictures are from the Vitthala temple, Hampi early 16th century, and he adds 'it is clear that this kind of sword was in common use over a large part of southern India untill at least the mid-sixteenth century'.
Unfortunately he does not explain why these blades went out of use in the south.

Jens

Hi Jens,
Thank you very much for the info, unfortunately I do not have that particular book by Elgood but it seems I must get one for the info it contains. In the meantime I will see what I can find on the net re the pictures from the Vitthala temple. I cant thank you enough for taking the time out to provide me with useful info.

Wishing you a Happy New Year
Kind Regards
Miguel

Miguel,

I have found something more, which I find interesting for your research.
In Four Centuries of Rajput Painting. Mewar, Marwar and Dhundhar. Skira 2009. Its from a very big private collection of Indian miniatures.
The author, Vicky Ducrot, and one of the owners og the collection, explains who the Rajputs are/were and from where they came, and on page 17 it says.

"In the twelfth century the Rajputs were defeated by the armies of Muslim invaders, first Arabs, later Turks and Afghans, and retreated from the Hindusthan plains, taking refuge in wilder regions: the deserts and steppes of Rajasthan, the jungles of Bundelkand (Central India), and the mountain ranges of northern Punjab."

Hi Jens,

Much obliged for the info. I am still struggling with the origin of the Coorgs but have discovered an interesting paragraph in my Oxford history of India of which I will let you know after I have compared it with other information on this subject. I received my copy of Elgoods Hindu Arms and and Ritual together with a copy of his study of the weapons in the Jaipur armoury today so am in for much enjoyable and interesting reading.
Kind regards
Miguel

Buddy, you are for a wild ride! :-)))

These books are indispensable sources of info for anybody interested in Indian weapons. Take a month-long vacation to read them and enjoy!

Miguel,

Ariel is right, but maybe you wont need a month.
Somewhere I have something about the origin of the Corgs - I will have to think - althought I know that I will have a head ache afterwards :-).

This link should give you a late backgroung knowledge http://muralirvarma.blogspot.ch/2010...kka-veera.html

Thanks Ariel. I wish.

Hi Jens, My apologies for the delay of this reply but I have been pretty busy with the family, I tried on two occasions, yesterday, from my iPad and managed to send a short reply to ariel but the system would not send my reply to you and kept telling me that I was not logged in so after logging in twice and getting nowhere I left it until now so I could reply from my laptop.

Thank you very much for the link all info helps, I hope you can turn something up on the origin as I am struggling and like you am sure that I will also suffer a headache, probably more than one. There seems to be information about them from around the 18th C but not a lot in earlier times. I am looking, at the moment, at the period embracing the 1st to the 7th C to see if I can turn up a clue as to where the down curved swords originated. It has been confirmed that a thriving trade between the peninsular and Rome and the West was established by The 1st C ad so I am wondering if weapons of this type could have been introduced by this route which means investigating which countries were trading with the South at this time etc so an awful lot of work to be done just on this one area. There seems to be quite a lot of theories and hypotheses about the origin of the Coorgs but no actual proof but I am not giving up as I am finding it most interesting. Incidentally during my searching I have come across both Kora and Ayda Katti with Khandar hilts which may point to their use, in later times, by either the Rajput or the Marathas or both?
Best regards
Miguel

Miguel,

Downcurved sword were plentiful among the Central Asian nomads.
Rawson ( and then Pant and Elgood) show similar forms in India even B.C.
Adya Katti was supposed to reflect Arab influence from Omani immigrants.


Thus, it could have been purely indigenous form of Indian weaponry with some contribution from Northern invaders at different times. Figuring out what is what in each particular case might be impossible. Was, for example, Mughal Sosun Patta in any way related to the Indian one? Or was it a "copy" of the Ottoman Yataghan? Or a happy marriage of both?

Miguel,

Tod, James:Annals and Antiquities of Rajasthan, vol. I-II.Munshiram Manoharlal Publishers, 2001 reprint.

In the first volume Tod writes about several, very early, Scytic invasions, and they seem to have been all over India.

Ariel is of course right. It may be impossible to prove anything - but it is worth a try :-).
It is always nice to winn, but should you lose you must remember, that you have learned a lot walking this stony path :-) - and learning is what it is all about. So which way it goes, you will always come out as a winner.

Miguel,

Maybe this link will help you further
http://www.forgottenbooks.com/readbo...1000689927/337

Hi Ariel, Thanks for your reply. I think you are probably right and that it may be impossible, I had reached this conclusion myself but at the same time you never know and as I am enjoying learning things I never knew about the history of India I will keep searching for a while longer. Thank you for your tip re Arab influence which again I did not know. Learning all the time, I am really glad that I was able to join this forum.
Thanks again.
Miguel

Hi Jens,

You are quite correct and I really appreciate the information, help and encouragement you have given me, also I would like to thank you for starting me down this path as it is proving very interesting to me.
Best regards
Miguel

Miguel,

This link may be of interest to you http://indiaopines.com/coorg-history/

If I remember correctly there were three or four clans ruling Coorg before the Sesodia clan (the last ruling clan) came to power.
The Sesodia clan did not always have this name, as they ad changed name four or five time over the centuries, so you will need to find their roots and follow them. Another thing you will need is to chase the other ruling clans, to see from where they origin.
If you drop the Sunday afternoon tea, you should have plenty of time :-). No, quite honestly, this kind of search does take a very long time, and it is sometims quite stony, but it pays off with all the things you learn on the way.

I too am researching the Coorg history, but something quite different from what you are doing, so now and again I find thngs which may be of interest to you.

Hi Jens,

Thanks again, a most interesting link. I am beginning to think that there may be something in the Greek connection and also the Caucasian connection although some scholars advise that these connections should be discounted. I wish you luck with your reseach and perhaps I may turn something up with mine.
Best regards
Miguel