Ibrahiim, there is a difference between what people write and being able to prove it. The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not. As for the Wilkinson catelog from the 1860s, do you have a link to it? The only catelog from Wilkinson that I am aware of that describes what we are looking for is a 1851 exhibition catelog were they do describe mail hauberks and gauntlets, but they only mention their use in India, nothing about Egypt, no mention of split links either. It also mentions bridles, you can not control your horse if the bridle is cut. Ottoman-uniforms does not suppy any real proof in the way of verifiable sources that I can fins showing Wilkinson was involved in making either the hauberk or the helmets.

The book that mentions Wilkinson swords involvement in mail hauberk production has been misquoted, in this book "Khartoum campaign, 1898: or the re-conquest of the Soudan By Bennet Burleigh" 1899, the writer says that it is the helmets that were made by Wilkinson, not the mail hauberks. Please carefully read the quote from the book that I have provided below.
"Coats of chain-mail old and new, and steel helmets. Most of the latter are quite modern, being part of the 600 supplied by a London firm of sword makers-Wklkinson & Co. Pall Mall." Notice it reads latter, which would refer to the helmets I believe since the hauberks are mentioned before the the helmets.

All of the mentions in later books and web sites etc seem to be using the quote from this book to back up their claims that Wilkinson had anything to do with the mail hauberls purchased in England for the Khedives forces. If you or anyone else has any additional proof I would be more than happy to learn something new.

Below I have provided the quote directly from the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the book I mention and a photo of what I believe to be one of the later made 1880s split link key chain mail hauberks next to a drawing of Khedive soldiers, 1880s, wearing the same hauberks.

It seems funny that in the many years between the 1851 Wilkinson catelog and the purchase by Egypt of 600 to 800 mail hauberks in the 1880s (30 years) there are no images from Wilkinson of these hauberks and no additional references to them (that I can find). Something else that I find amazing is that so far no photos of any of the Khedives forces wearing armor has surfaced, you would think with all of the drawings and descriptions someone would have taken a picture, I am still waiting for one to turn up.

For anyone interested in Khedival Egypt and Sudanese mahdi period armor I have put together a Pinterest site with all of the armor images I have found so far, although I probably have a few still hidden on my hard drive that I will add if they turn up and I will add any I find at a later date. I also have a general Khedive of Egypt Pinterest site with some great photos etc.

Armor of Khedival Egypt and the Sudanese Mahdist state.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...ese-mahdist-s/

The Khedive of Egypt.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...ives-of-egypt/

Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?

Excellent responses and great detail and information everyone!
Linus has a great suggestion regarding the spectrum of body armours which have come into the discussion here, and while analogous to this discussion they all certainly have their own histories.

What is excellent here is the participation of so many in discovering more on the history of these armours and revising or reinforcing published data and generally held perceptions as required. It is our best hope that members and readers here continue research and share findings,
here we learn together!

Excellent notes pertaining to the helmet production Estcrh, and interesting to see that this material is misquoted, unfortunately not at all uncommon in early writings. However I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked. This is as far as I have known, pretty standard procedure for all published material, and just as with those resources, pertinent data must be rechecked. These are all benchmarks for further research.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else. It seems quite possible that some instances of material on these topics might have come from personal contact with him as he is quite active online and most helpful to peoples queries.

It is remarkable that a single 'chestnut' like the 1899 reference noted by Estrcrh can be the seed for numerous misquotes and notions in so much subsequent material. That is why what we do here is so important, and it is virtually incumbent on us to resolve these matters and preserve the corrected data.

Ian, what a fascinating aside on the 'Blemmyes'! and thank you for the interesting true story on this folklore. It is indeed intriguing to see how visual perceptions of armour in use, often somewhat outlandish to be sure, could lead to these bizarre notions and tall tales.

nKante, what a superb job of recreating this amazing armour and dress! This is excellent to see the key items used by these warriors in full dimension and preserving this wonderful heritage. Bravo!!!

I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.

Jim, I have actually created several articles on Wikipedia about Japanese armor, weapons and horse related equipment and edited many more, adding good images and verifiable references. I have also added, categorized and edited thousands of images on Wikimedia Commons. They are both usefull sites when the information is correct. Unfortunately in this case when I searched for the information supposedly contained in the Wikipedia references I could find nothing, that is what I meant by "useless". The references could be good but unless someone can trace the references back and see for themselves then they are not useful for research.

It is quite possible that some of the armor used by the Khedives forces did in fact come from Wilkinson, but until the smoking gun is found it is best to let people know that Wilkinson "may" have made some of the armor rather than say they absolutely did make some of the armor. Your suggestion about contacting Wilkinson directly is an excellent approach.

These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection ;)

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.

Absolutely, and as you can see as a reliable participant on Wikipedia, it is all very much relative, and many entries such as those you placed are entirely usable. As I noted, it is incumbent on the user to take caution in the use of the material and must serve as a benchmark, not a final citation.

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.

Actually with the armor, it seems references I had seen noted the mail had come from Birmingham, of course the key industrial area known for arms and all manner of equipment. Wilkinson was of course not in Birmingham so perhaps it might have been a Wilkinson subcontractor. Of these there were a good number, especially for colonially intended products. It seems that Mole was one for swords for example in those headed for India.

After Omdurman and during the Condominium, there was such a demand for souveniers that when supplies of actual items from the Sudanese faltered, there were facsimile items such as spearheads etc made in Birmingham to supply the souks.

The equipage of the Mahdist forces was certainly a hodgepodge and gathered from all kinds of sources, so to see varying helmets, swords, etc. must have been amazing. The sound mail hauberks from Mamluk/Ottoman sources certainly would have been represented in considerable numbers.

The examples of British manufacture which were apparently in degree with the Khedival forces as I found, were left and only the helmets taken, along of course with rifles etc. In the early part of the Mahdiyya most tribesmen did not even have swords. In references I have seen, many of the rank and file had wooden swords, and retrieved the swords of the fallen during the combats.

It would be extremely difficult to assert the presence of or absence of certain types of arms and armor in these campaigns due to the remarkably ersatz nature of equipping these forces. It is still interesting to seek any examples which may have been used in degree however.

Jim, Pinterest is currently the best way to store and share photos and information with other people, basically everyone can have/be their own mini Wikipedia, each Pinterest post is allowed a 500 character description, if this is not enough one can write as much as they want on a notepad on their computer, they can then turn what they have written into a .jpg image by doing a screen print etc and saving it on their computer using an editor such as Irfanview, and then by using an editor they can easily attach/combine what they wrote to the image they want to post. I find that 500 characters is usually enough to adequitely describe most photos. You can also insert links to websites, articles, pdf etc.

If you have not already done so, please take a look at my Pinterest page and take a few minutes to open some of the categories I have created and look at the photos I have posted, read some descriptions and see for yourself, let me know what you think.

A few short years ago you could find almost no online information or photos of Khedival armor, now try a simple google search such as "khedive armor", see what you find under "web", then look under "images", no doubt you will see the real power of Pinterest. Due to Googles powerful search engine the internet is full of information and images of "khedive armor" for anyone to easily find, taken directly from Pinterest, forums, auctions, books and dealers websites. Some of what you will find was just posted a day or two ago, to me it is really amazing.

My Pinterest page.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

Ok, I have created a Pinterest category for African armor, I will be adding images from my hard drive, forums and the internet, you can watch and hopefully add any additional information which may be missing or correct any image descriptions which you may find to be wrong. If this goes as planned it will eventually be the worlds largest African armor gallery/data base in the world. Images posted here will be added to my Pinterest category if they are relevant.

African armor.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/african-armor/

Salaams estcrh, You wrote.......Quote."The Wikipedia information is completely useless, check the citations and see if you can follow them to a verifiable source, I can not". Unquote. ....

I wrote "Taking the question of English produced armour..."It appears so..." and under that; the content carefully placed in quotation marks..

It may well be that a quotation is proven to be partially incorrect but it is not the fault of the author who exposes/refers to the information ...Note my carefully worded starter "It appears so" ...which is rather like saying ..."It is said that"......

Wikepedia information is however, not useless. It operates like a huge search engine and encyclopedia and as you know corrections are invited. Broadly speaking we take the information from such libraries and sift it ...model it...and present it so that it then passes before our very eyes and into Library...where it still may be scrutinized ...I think we avoid using such terminology as ..."It is completely useless"...etc. etc. whereas I am entirely in support of correcting such mistakes as have already appeared even in well accepted authors works down the ages.

It remains, however, important to follow and expose details as we discover them and it has always been my technique to present what I find in support of threads by looking into every possibility to hand... which includes Forum Library, books and the web...thus occasionally Wikepedia (which I find excellent) and even Pinterest.

I even noted privately when it began, that Pinterest makes an excellent addition to Forum content, however, it is not the be all and end all to web based research as it is generally all about pictures...and there are other areas to obtain details....It may be noted how in the past a storage system of pictures collapses leaving Forum without photographs thus great care has to be taken before investing our Libraries details and credibility in a potentially vanishing format...

Here is a classic thread full of interest in an area otherwise hardly exposed before... but now with a bright Forum light shining on it !! :)

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, I think I did not make myself clear enough, sorry about that, I meant that in THIS particular instance, the information on the origins of Khedival armor was (to me at least) completely useless....because when I tried to find the information in the references that were used in the article they led nowhere (at least for me), one reference did not show up at all when I searched for it and the other was a modern book that when searched did not show the information that the article said it contained. I was in no way saying that you believed the information to be true, you were just pointing it out, and I was just pointing out my thoughts on the usefullness of the references as research material.


As for Pinterest, I invite you to take some time and throughly look at my Pinterest site, it is certainly not "all about pictures" unless you want it to be. Besides pictures you can post books, articles and essays, pdfs, you can write your own research papers and convert them to a .jpg and post them on pinterest, you can post links to websites and articles. It is a complete storage system that allows you to categorize images and information in a way that no other system I am aware of allows you to do. People who shrug off Pinterest as only being about "pictures" have not taken a good look at its possibilities.

The lack of image uploading upgrades has left this forum in the past, the small images size and lack of inline attachments makes it very hard to post images and add appropriate matching text, this limits what people will post on the forum and I am sure many people just do not bother to post images here at all due to these limitations. So as a storage system for images the forum also has some its on problems.


Here is an example of what you can do with Pinterest besides posting pretty pictures.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com...21cfbb667c.png

AFRICAN KNIGHTS:The Armies of Sokoto, Bornu and Bagirmi in the 19th Century by Conrad Cairns, 2006, covers the period that began with the Sokoto jihad in 1804 and ended with the extinction of the Savannah states by the European powers in the 20th c, provides a brief history of the three states and examines the arms, equipment and methods of warfare used by their armoured 'knights' and infantry, sections on horses, artillery, flags, fortifications, clothing, with photographs and engravings.

Salaams estcrh, Regretably you mixed up two references...One from Wikepedia and the other with the actual quote was from my second reference http://www.ottoman-uniforms.com/egy...xpedition-1883/ ...Therefor Wikepedia in this instance is vindicated.

It is interesting that there are actually few accounts of the Hicks expedition not least because there were few people left alive to recount the details because it was almost totally annihilated.

I use Pinterest occasionally as it can be seen that the images are excellent. Unfortunately their website insists that users join another media site to access and frankly it puts me off as I consider it an invasion of privacy...but certainly it is worth considering ..though as I say ...I am very happy using a broad range of research concepts and since books on the subject are quite difficult to get here the web fills in as second best....We are after all ...it should be remembered ...also a web based information retrieval cell...

I will certainly look in at your site. Meanwhile good luck with the African Armour details.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Ibrahiim, actually Wikipedia is NOT vindicated at all. I do not mind being wrong but in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I have directly saved the Wikipedia text that mentions Wilkinson and mail, and the references indicated, #19. "Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886. #20. Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd. p. 41. #21. Google Books Iron Men

The first reference is a newspaper article, which according to Wikipedias standareds for valid references is not a valid reference. In most cases facts that come from websites, newspapers, self published books are not usable as reliable references.

Anyway try finding the article mentioned ("Men Who Wear Armour.". The Daily Mail. 1886.), I can not find a mention of it anywere except in reference to the Wikipedia article, if the reference can not be found what use is it? So an other useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The next reference is Randolph, T.H. (1892). The Wilkinson Sword Catalog. The Wilkinson Sword Co. Ltd., again I have looked for this catelog and I can not find it, so another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

The third reference is a modern book, Google Books Iron Men, there is a link to a book called Khedive Ismail's Army, John P. Dunn, 2004. This book does not mention Wilkinson sword at all as far as I can tell, it mentions "zirhagi" (iron men) which is another useless reference as far as Wilkinson Swords goes.

As for the references go, ottoman-uniforms.com does a great job and I give a lot of credit to Dr Flaherty, but it is a work in progress, images and text change from time to time, information is added and removed, sometimes links die as well.

estcrh, Thank you for your reply.. I don't want to bog down the thread as I have pointed out the Hicks was a badly recorded expedition as well as a total disaster; Wikipedia can hardly be blamed for misreporting and besides it is a self correcting encyclopedia as well as a monumental record of all things...and being web based is equally concerned with getting the facts right as we are.

I gave two entirely different references and you molded them both together...This is a bit unfair.

Sometimes researchers cannot find exactly what they are searching for... Sometimes they do. My advice is to keep looking and perhaps gain the e mail address of one of the survivors of Wilkinson Sword...if you feel it is of absolute importance in this regard. Frankly I don't think it is... There is a lot of material worth looking at and you can meanwhile pencil the chain mail suits into the margin for later...:)

Meanwhile I continue to observe the development of this interesting thread and I am particularly interested how Arab involvement altered or became adapted into African style.

It occurred to me that rather than rigid regimental armoured cavalry and armoured infantry units that African tribal grouping fell into and out of uniform armour at a whim...that instead it was rather transient as a concept both because of the heat...and local traditions....while the thick cloth or material style was preferred over the heavy metal. That is not to say they never used armour..It has been shown that they occasionally did...although they certainly preferred a shield in the traditional sense which is after all an armoured concept.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

A close up of the cloth armour; From Pinterest; Sudanese quilted armor. Armor for horse and rider displayed in the British Museum were captured from the army of Mahdi Muhammad Ahmad ibn ‘Abd Allah (Battle of Omdurman,1898), cotton stuffed with kapok, loosely quilted horizontally and firmly quilted vertically. L:134 cm, W:131 cm, suggesting the sleeves are probably 3/4 length. the long length and high central vent is consistent with a cavalryman’s armor.
The small picture showing how best to get out of ones armoured shirt... :shrug:

Occasionally I have to write to myself !... I was reviewing the few publications on things about African Armour and discovered a book by Christopher Spring curator at the British Museum...see below.

One account from a reader indicates...Quote" AFRICAN ARMS AND ARMOUR not only talk about the weapons, but it also provides many excellent historical accounts of the weapons in use throughout history. It was fascinating to learn that African weapons were not restricted to just spears and hide shields like many may believe today, but they also had as wide a variety of weapons as could be found anywhere in the world, complete with swords, bows, cavalry, and even armor. This is a good book to read for not only weapons enthusiasts, but also history buffs". Unquote.

Ibrahiim, I should probably have worded my comment differently, I think we are just not understanding each other, the references were dead ends in the matter of were the Khedives armor was made and who made it, I know that you were just presenting some additional references, and the excellent research you put into your posts is much appreciated by me.

As for the Hicks expedition, here is an interesting print that shows the diverse and motley crew of soldiers cobbled together in an ill fated attempt to deal with the Mahdi.

Salaams estcrh, I have no problem with this at all... Occasionally different people use different techniques to open these Pandoras box problems... Most people have trouble following the rapid twists and turns of a web that is crashing along at exponential rates of knowledge/detail intake. The picture you show of the Hicks soldiers is remarkable and probably one of those sketches for the London Times...Probably by the time that report was printed ...most of that huge expedition were dead....!!

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

This continues to be s most fascinating thread, and I very much admire the gentlemanly exchange in discussing differences in opinion and perspective, case in point Wikipedia and the more recent web phenomenon, Pininterest.
Like most everything, these kinds of venues serve well for many, and of course in varying cases and degrees.
As always, they are only as effective as those who proactively contribute to them, and can be most useful if the material presented is accurately and effectively entered.

I must reiterate, to me online resources are usually quite valuable, but as even with published resources the best policy is to recheck and confirm sources and cites. As noted, many of these references in these online venues are dated, improperly quoted and poorly cited. While their 'benchmark' standing remains, it becomes even more essential to continue research and confirmation.

The book "African Knights" sounds fascinating and I have ordered it!
"African Arms and Armour" has been a keystone in my African references for nearly two decades! and has always served me well. In the concurrent thread on throwing knives, after searching through a good number of esoteric reference sources, I found most of what I sought in 'Spring' (which most of us use to term this now venerable source).

Excellent thread!!!

More on African Armour...Mahdist undergarments etc used in the Hicks Massacre and at Omdurman ...

Here are closer photos of the mail. I have seen one similar described as Ottoman.

Very nice images, it certainly is not Indian mail. I would say either Ottoman or Persian, either way you did good on these, I seem to remember they sold for a rather low price. Do you have a weight and or measurement.

Dear estcrh, thanks for your input and let me congratulate you for the thousands of images that you have gathered in your boards! I was like lost there for some hours! The weight is 12,5 kg the 2 together, so i guess 6,250kg each (my scale couldnt work with just one on it!)

Here is a comparison view of your mail and some 16th century Ottoman mail.

These were sold as "African chain mail gloves" Do you think they're armor or something else? I didn't win the auction

I have seen another single mail glove like the ones you posted, they must have had some purpose. I was thinking the single one could have been used in falcontry. They do not look like something you would hold a weapon with but you never know.

They're butcher's gloves.

which book does this page come from
 

Hello,this is the first post I have made,so if there are mistakes I apologise
I found the photo attached to this post on pinterest but I cannot find any information on the book it comes from.Can somebody please tell me which book this page is from
regards
Andrew Freeston

This was from our (Auctions Imperial) March 2012 sale, lot 244:

https://auctionsimperial.hibid.com/l...armor&cat=true

Oliver