|
Quote:
Quote:
Richard is probably the leading scholar working on British cavalry swords at the moment. I can thoroughly recommend his latest book: “The British Cavalry Sword 1788 – 1912, Some New Perspectives” Kind regards, Chris |
Hi Chris, it is in the National Museum, the curator (Bhess) took me around, thanks for the heads up on the book, I'll definitely give it a shout, all the best Simon
|
Hi Chris,
My note of that blade being Solingen was very much 'off the cuff' as these triple fuller type types are characteristic of the 'trade' blades that were produced there from 18th century and well through the 19th (much like the one Kronckew has shown in the example he entered here). However, you are quite right, the blade could well be an Indian copy. It does not seem to me that the Indian smiths were making these kinds of copied blades quite as early as this type sword as suggested by the hilt. Actually Solingen blades were quite regularly into India, particularly in the western regions via Malabar and Mahrattas, and of course via many of the EIC key regions and presidencies via the flow of these into England. In England, the constant influx of German blades remained a bit of a standard. Thank you for noting the superb work by Richard Dellar, "The British Cavalry Sword 1788-1912", in my opinion one of the most significant works on regulation cavalry swords to date. It delves into the history of many of these well known forms through research and study including those who actually used them, rather the exact way I deeply enjoy studying these weapons whenever possible. Simon thank you for adding the PDF and example of the tulwar with profoundly heavy blade, one we often regard as the much debated 'tegha'. Chris, I also heartily agree with your note on some swords we have had for so long we think their tales are finished, Like you say, those old swords from more years ago I collected were indeed my friends, and very much my guides into exciting forays into history!! Now, many years later, and with a 'bit' more knowledge, it is amazing how much more they have to share with me. We NEVER know it all, the cases are never closed, and the search remains never ending. It is the pure joy and adventure of collecting and studying arms. I still have not found the examples of these type langets, nor the general look of that M1796 light cav stirrup hilt. I feel pretty confident that its form corresponds to those which might have been selected by EIC officers though. It seems to resemble some of those I recall which were to particular cavalry regiments, remembering that officers swords were private purchase just as were EIC types. All best, Jim |
Thanks for the added info Jim, what does 'tegha' mean and refer to? all the best Simon
|
1 Attachment(s)
Here is the rest of Drabya Shah's weapons circa 1559, the Tulwar is on the top left
|
The word 'tegha' seems to be another of the dialectic Indian terms used for a sword type, in this case, I believe (by recollection) to refer to a very heavy blade and slightly curved sword. I think it is noted in "The Indian Sword" (Rawson, 1967) as well as Pant (Lahore, 1980, "Indian Arms andArmour")
Thank you for the images of this grouping, impressive! Refresh my memory please on Drabya Shah, where was he situated? |
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Jim, thanks for the info on Tegha, Drabya Shah was the first of the Shah's of Gorkha in Nepal, when Drabya Shah killed Khadka Raja in personnel combat, there is a nick in the beam of ceiling from Drabya Shah's killing cut on Khadka Raja's head which split it in two in the Palace in Gorkha, which Lt. Col. Cross was able to see, as he was mistaken for a Brahmin and allowed in.
It is quite a climb just over 3000 feet, which I did in 2000, but worth it for the view alone, and good prep for the trekking! |
Thanks Simon, I thought the name was familiar from some of the info John Powell used to share, seems like eons ago.
|
This is a very interesting and informative topic. Thank you all :)
While reading earlier posts, this picture from 1912 Wilkinson catalogue, posted by mrcjgscott, cought my attention. The second saber from the left is very different from all the rest, with an unusual hilt for a British-made and western influenced military sword; yet it does not look like a tulwar either. It looks almost like an Ethiopian gurade. My question is simply what is this, why is it different and are there any surviving examples? Is it a British attempt to (poorly)imitate a tulwar hilt or something else? :confused: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/attach...d=139819&stc=1 |
Excellent observation Sancar!
Actually that is indeed an Ethiopian shotel with the European type blade, if I am correct on terminology. I have understood the 'gurade' as typically the stirrup hilt military style sabres for Ethiopia (usually German made). In the early 20th century, Wilkinson Sword Co. had been supplying then Abyssinia with swords for a time, and these catalogs listed their wares. Other similar pages illustrate Ethiopian blade variations for the traditional rhino horn 'shotel' which included both the deeply curved sickle type as well as the shallow curve military style. Both were used into the 1930s. It is curious how this became mixed in with the Indian grouping, but in these times it does not seem uncommon for such interpolation in many references and in this case catalogs. I once had a pair of British made tulwars (by Mole, contracted to Wilkinson) which had cast brass Indo-Persian hilts. These were quite true to form, and the British were quite attuned to such details. Native cavalry during the Raj were permitted to choose their favored weapons it would seem, as there are variations by regiment and some had traditional tulwars. Since the term tulwar was of course a general term for sword, and equally used to refer to the European style sabres in these regiments, it is unclear exactly what the actual form was. |
1 Attachment(s)
In Robert Elgood's new book Arms and Armour ar the Jaipur Court, he writes as follow on page 73.
"A Jaipur copy of en English Officer's sabre with basket hilt and pierced silver and silver gilt scabbard in similar floral style is stated to have been made for a captain Man Singh of Jaipur". A note says that it was shown in Hendley's Memorials og the Jeypore Exhibibition 1883, plate XLIX (attached). In the text to the plate Hendley writes. "1. Sword. Talwar. Basket hilt. 2. Scabbard of no 1. Pierced floral pattern. Silver and gold chasing. Colst of 1. and 2. 200 rs. Made at Jeypore for Captain Man Singh." |
Great observation Sancar, and thanks for the clarification Jim, I didn't realise Mole was contracted to Wilkinson for some swords.
|
What a beauty Jens
Quote:
|
Quote:
Thank you for the clarification on the importation of German blades into India Jim. It seems NOTHING should be taken for granted with arms and armour! As you say, it is always refreshing when an old piece in your collection can yield new information, even when you think all the threads have been unravelled... I know researchers who do occasionally make grandiose statements about new discoveries, only to find, when digging a little deeper, that such proclamations are not all they are cracked up to be. The field of study doesn't matter, I am sure such things happen across the spectrum when undertaking research. We must stick to the facts, and judge each case on its own merits. As you say, there is always more information to be gleaned. Quote:
|
9 Attachment(s)
Many thanks for posting that example Jens. I am very much looking forward to Elgood's forthcoming work.
Here are two more Indian Infantry swords with British influenced hilts, similar to the one posted by A.alnakkas earlier in the thread. Both have subtle differences, but both carry an European style coat of arms in the central guard cartouche. I presume typical of the many Indian states, although I have no idea to which these swords belonged. Note the horn grip and tulwar style scabbard on the bottom example. |
Quote:
Yours is Persian and early 20th century. |
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Chris,
I don't know if it'll be any help identifying where the sword came from, but I believe the six characters on the guard in the top picture are; Ri Ya S Ta Ha Ta(long a). I'm not sure on the fifth character 'Ha', as it's a little blurred, but the others are a pretty good match to my eye. |
Chris,
I think I see two numbers on your hilt, the number '1' in the middle of the text, and '8' at the end of the text, but what the text inbetween says I don't know. |
Quote:
That is certainly more than I knew when I woke up this morning! I would imagine they are either a unit designation or possibly a rack number (perhaps both) Kind regards, Chris |
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Chris & Jens,
I thought I'd posted up a crude translation last night, but it's either still waiting for a Mods approval or it's been lost in the ether, so I'll try again. I don't know if it'll be any help in identifying the origins, but the six characters on the top picture look like: Ri Ya S Ta Ha Taa. Not sure about the 5th character as it's a bit blurred. On the other example. The numbers are 1 and 4. The two characters look like Ga and Ja though there are additional marks on them (vowel diacritics? that I don't recognise) |
You are right, the last number is 4 and not 8 - sorry.
Jens |
Some lovely swords you have there Chris, thank you for the info about Mole being bought out by Wilkinson
|
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
I also thought thought another possible translation of the 5th character (from the first pic) could be Dhaa? |
Quote:
Many thanks for posting these up, most interesting.I shall give some thought to what your translation might signify. One of the hilts shows some letters under the crest. I will tidy this up a little and take some better quality images, as this might reveal the state of origin with any luck. I envy your ability with deciphering the characters, I have tried many times to get my head around it, but to no avail. Your efforts are much appreciated! Quote:
Some of them took a long time to track down. RWL wrote a history of Wilkinson a few years back, I can try and find the details if it might be of interest? Kind regards, Chris |
33rd Cavalry
2 Attachment(s)
Here are examples of the sword carried by the 33rd Cavalry.
The officers sword utilizes the 1821 "Honeysuckle" style guard, and the lower sword, for troopers, is based upon the 1908 cavalry sword. If memory serves, the troopers sword was produced by B. Boota Singh and Son, of Rawalpindi. They obviously held several Indian Government contracts, as they also produced high quality kukri during WW1. |
1 Attachment(s)
Another shot, alongside a standard British 1908.
|
If you could dig up the details Chris, that would be great
|
Quote:
I do not have enough knowledge on the topic to say with any confidence, but I believe the inscription is Marathi. When I'm attempting these translations, I write down what I think it says and then type that into a program that converts roman alphabet into a range of Indian sub continent scripts. If I get a match, I know I'm getting better! The first character, Ri, only looks like that when I select the Marathi option. It is different in Hindi, still devanagari script, just a different way of putting it together. All the other characters remain the same however. Perhaps this is a hint that it came from Maharashtra state? Or somewhere nearby? |
"Mr Wilkinson of Pall Mall", by Robert Wilkinson Latham. Volume One 1772-1899, and Volume Two 1900-1972.
|
Sorry to keep clogging this thread with more waffle, if I wasn't still in modded status I'd have tried to edit it all into one post.
Just discovered that Riyasata means something like Principality. So the last two characters are the key. If you can get a clearer pic it might be possible to establish which Principality it came from. |
Silver John that is brilliant work, many thanks indeed!
I will give the thing a good once over to clean the gunk out, and get back to you with better images. Kind regards, Chris |
Silver John,
No problem at all - I am glad you corrected me, that is what the forum is for - or am I mistaken :-). Jens |
3 Attachment(s)
Hi Silver John,
I owe you an apology I think: I keep forgetting to check up the thread for your moderated posts to appear, therefore I have missed some of your posts. I apologise if it seemed as though I was ignoring your contribution, it is indeed much appreciated! Attached are some additional images of the crest. The quality is slightly dubious, due mostly to the rollercoaster which is British summertime! I am happy to try again if they are not up to snuff! Kind regards, Chris |
4 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Thanks for the clearer pictures. To me it looks like the fifth character is Tha + either I or O. Because of the way the bar at the top is squashed it's very hard for me to tell which it's supposed to be. It could be something else entirely though. The character for the aspirated retroflex Dha looks roughly similar, could be a poor version of that? My best guess is Ri Ya Sa Ta Thi/Tho Ta. No Idea what that last bit could mean though! I've attached some images, so you can decide for yourself. |
2 Attachment(s)
This example was carried by Jacobs Horse.
It was manufactured by Wilkinson sword. One side was signed with their name in English, the other in Hindi. (Advertising is advertising!) Note the similarities to the hilt of the British 1853 pattern. Kind regards, Chris |
Another from the archives...
3 Attachment(s)
This sword was part of an India Office order placed with Robert Mole for 500 swords and 500 scabbards of Bengal Native Cavalry pattern dated 3rd August 1886. Sword priced at 10/6d each and scabbards at 8/3d.
The specification quotes: "The Hilt to be best cast malleable iron. the medallion to be stamped and pierced and neatly fitted to the hilt." Almost certainly produced for Viceroy Commissioned Officers with the crown and Imperial cypher. |
Quote:
Once again I completely missed this post of yours! Many thanks indeed for taking the time to look into this conundrum. I don't have any gut reaction as to what it might mean, but I shall certainly give it some more thought. Once again, your research is much appreciated! Kind regards, Chris |
Mystery Sword
5 Attachment(s)
Here are a few pictures of an Indian Cavalry Sword made by Wilkinson, one of the few pieces I was not able to nail down a solid provenance for.
No orders seemed to remain extant for such pieces in the Wilkinson archive, and it was proposed that the sword may have indeed been a one off or trial piece. It now resides with the Royal Armouries in Leeds. |
3 Attachment(s)
Here are a few more shots, showing the typical double ring top mount found on these 1821 hilted, 1796 blades pieces.
Interestingly the scabbard has been "tarted up" post service with the addition of a bright velvet cover, so these blades may have been carried a long time after official service ended. Do let me know if you are getting bored of these images, and I will stop!! |
21st Cavalry - Indian Army
Quote:
Just new to this forum and mainly interested in EIC and Indian Army, and wonder if I can ask specifically how your 21st Cavalry sword is identified. Would it be with the numerals 21 encircled with a large capital "C"?; and could you also mention the length of the blade, width at ricasso, and whether or not the blade is swamped and broadens before the point. Gordon |
| All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:07 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.