Ron,

I am not trying to disparage the ideas you propose or suggest that they are without merit. I apologize if I gave you that impression. Rather I'm trying to understand the basis for your thoughts and how they account for certain facts as we know them.

After 50+ years of reviewing theses, articles submitted for publication, and grant applications, I'm reading your ideas in a similar manner: What are you proposing? What are your sources of new and old information? What data do you have? How will you test your ideas? One does not have to be a trained academic to use the tools of research. Robert Elgood's works are a good model to follow.

The contributions of Robert Cato to the literature on Moro swords are not limited to his book. He has four publications dating from 1991 to 1996, and these are listed in TD Rogers, An Annotated Bibliography of Indonesian, Filipino & Malay Edged Weapons, Zwartenkot Art Books: Lieden, 2015 (citation numbers 599–602).

Cato R. The Moros and their swords. Inside Kung-Fu 16(12): 52–55, 82 (1989).
Cato R. Islamic swords of the Southern Philippines. Arts of Asia 21(1): 104–123, 1991.
Cato R. Moro swords, battle blades of a people. Blade, December 1993: 86–87.
Cato R. Moro Swords. Graham Brash: Singapore, 1996.

I have copies of his book and of the Arts of Asia article, but have not read the other two. I believe at least one of these (Arts of Asia) is a peer reviewed publication, and I suspect that there were varying degrees of editorial review for his other writings on this subject--it would be unusual for an editor of a reputable publication not to perform some type of review. So Mr Cato's work has probably been subjected to review by people familiar with the topic and has met with their approval. David's comment that anyone can write a book is true if we are talking about small printings of self-published works funded by the author. Getting someone else to publish your work with large numbers of colored pictures, however, is not something everyone can do.

Because of the review and scrutiny frequently paid to published articles, they carry more weight than, say, blogs or other opinion pieces (such as EEWRS comments) that are posted online. Generally, blogs and opinions are not supported by references or objective data, whereas well reviewed articles will include these and other features that add credibility to the author's thinking.

As I see it, Mr Cato presently has the high ground in his descriptions of Moro weapons. To refute things he has said means being more thorough and accurate. For example, I don't think Cato cited all of his local sources of information. Some may have requested anonymity, but that is something that should have been stated because unattributed statements can be worth very little (as they cannot be verified). A better study would cite key informants and indicate their expertise.

Ron, I think you have the germ of a good idea. In offering comments about what you have said, I'm not trying to win a debate and I don't necessarily disagree with your idea. I am trying to help you convince me that you are right.

Ian

Rick,

Alan Maisey commented earlier that the cockatoo had a strong symbolic meaning in the Indonesian Archipelago and Malaysia, but he did not know about the significance in Moroland.

Ian.

Peer review is a straw man - physics is doing fine with much of its academic publishing being done without traditional prior peer review for decades already. And in just about any academic discipline you'll be able to find deplorable "scholarship" having been published after "approval" via academic peer review. And that is before the ugly rise of predatory "academic" journals with peer review of very questionable quality during the last decade or so...

Review done by a commercial non-academic publisher is bound to be quite another kettle of fish, too.

I thank Bob Cato for his efforts and sacrifice in getting his book published. Apparently he was a very dedicated collector and, with publishing his ideas, did more for promoting Moro craftsmanship than most of us. However, I fail to see his book as an academic endeavour: Hardly any sources are given except a few examples shown in pictures (usually without any provenance, discussion, etc.) and limited literature citations; pretty much the data base is just missing. Obviously, the earlier journal articles were leading up to the book - apart from a few pics, there's hardly any additional data.

He put out his ideas and these hypotheses can be falsified/modified by additional data and ongoing discussions. I believe the contributions on this forum are certainly very valuable and can be considered being on par with Cato's early attempt. Fair game IMHO...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks for confirming what i had expected. All my books are boxed already for an impending move so i cannot access my copy of Moro Sword at the moment.
Again, i have no particular bone to pick with Cato and do not feel fully qualified to confirm or deny any theory he might have presented in his book. However, i strongly disagree that Cato carries more weight simply because he is the only book reference that has been published on the matter, especially when, if we look closely, he fails to give us solid sources and references for his own work. This doesn't give him the "high ground", it merely affords him the only ground...so far.
Ian, i am glad to hear that is was not your intention to shut down this discussion, but when you write things like "Some people may have knowledge that is different, but until it is put out there for discussion and the basis of it checked out, then there is nothing else to discuss" i hope you can see how some might get that impression. What i have found over the many years i have been trying to understand these weapons (particularly Indonesian keris) is that a great deal of valuable and important research and breakthroughs in understanding happen right here on these forums. The vast majority of published references on the keris are misleading at best and utter wrong at worst. They hold no particular "high ground" simply by virtue of them finding a publisher. There has been less written on Moro weaponry and i am not able to say when and when not Cato may be correct or incorrect. But i can't assume he is right simply because he wrote it down. While there may in fact be a more scholarly and academic approach to other forms of arms that have been studied in far greater detail such as European and India swords i am afraid we are at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes the SEA. This doesn't mean that we should not use similar tried and true methods for our research and theory building, but i don't see why we need fully realized and completely supported evidence just to question theories by Cato that are not well sources and referenced themselves.

Well, that's what I was wondering.
If it had no significance in Moroland then we might be able to discount it as an influence with a fairly clear conscience.

Here is some information on birds (and serpents...as Alan suggested earlier these tend to operate together in many mythologies). There is no mention of kakatau in these descriptions, though some birds are mentioned by their given name rather than species. According to other sources i have read Magaul (Manaul), one of the most important birds to Moro mythology, was supposedly a Sarimanok.
https://www.aswangproject.com/role-b...ine-mythology/

The Ardana could be another candidate.
http://www.ancientpages.com/2017/01/...f-philippines/

Amihan seems to be related to the Manaul myth, an ancient king who was transformed into a bird.
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Amihan_(mythology)

What i am not finding in any of my internet searches is any kind of mythological connection with the kakatau (cockatoo) in Moro culture. If anyone has found any such links maybe they can post them.

Ron....after the auction was ended the seller emailed me and noted that kris and scabbard were mismatched, I told him it's okay but it would be nice to have the matching scabbard! he told me that there was another scabbard that should have went on thesame auction but it was for the smaller dagger. I will sell it to you for $25, here it was, perfect fit!

no damage on the pommel/handle what so ever, but a forging crack on the blade. enjoy

... a very good example of an earlier kris. (two krises to the left)

Hello
 

About that Cockatoo...........
Anyone?

Rick,
when i started collecting, i was wondering why the pommel is referred to as cockatoo when there's no correlation between that particular bird and the Moro people. i realize that these weapons, much like anything else around them, is steep in symbolism. we already know that the blade symbolizes the Naga, a much revered creature among the Moros, and pre-hispanic Filipinos for that matter. again, going back to our belief before Islam and Catholicism arrived.
so i double checked if the cockatoo has some sort of symbolic meaning among the Moros, and for the life of me, i can't find anything. the earliest i've seen these pommels being referred to as cockatoo were in the catalogs during first quarter of the 20th century. in my humble opinion, someone started labeling them as cockatoo, without knowing what exactly they represent. these same catalogs would refer to some of these pommels as "made out of caribou's horn". of course we now know that there are no caribous in the Philippines. even Cato wasn't so sure about this. again, let's look at what he wrote:

All barung pommels, and many kris pommels, are modeled after the head of the cockatoo (known to the Malays as the "kakatua" or "kinadangag"). This magnificent crested parrot is native to the Southern Philippines and Indonesia. Its elaborately-feathered crest, curving beaks and stately regal bearing have captured the imagination of Moro artists for many centuries. The cockatoo motif became widely accepted throughout the South in a relatively short period of time.

Some Indonesian swords were fitted with pommels that are somewhat akin to the Moro kakatua. It is possible that early hilt makers in the Southern Philippines came into contact with the motif in the course of their trading and combative encounters with the Indonesians. Upon their return to the Morolands, artisans probably redesigned the motif, imbuing it with their own unique style and flavor.

To the Muslim Filipinos, the kakatua motif symbolizes lightness, and the ability to fly up into the heavens, leaving danger and death far behind.

ok, so the regal-ness of these magnificent birds has captured the imagination of the Moro artist for centuries, and yet it would take for them to trade with the Indonesians to realize that, "hey, i got an idea; why don't we use that same regal bird that's been capturing our imagination for centuries as a motif for our pommel. heck, the Indonesians were using it. so it doesn't look like we copied them, let's add our unique style and flavor!"
yeah, that makes a lot of sense.

so a Cliff Note version to your question: no, the cockatoo is not in any Moro sagas, myth, and legends.

CCUAL
bro, congratulations in snagging that piece! i'm pretty sure i was the bidder you outbidded, lol, but no worries, it wasn't meant for me. thanks for posting some close ups!

CCUAL
bro, congratulations in snagging that piece! i'm pretty sure i was the bidder you outbidded, lol, but no worries, it wasn't meant for me. thanks for posting some close ups![/QUOTE]

sorry about that bro, but for sure when i am ready let go "kris sarimanok" will be a gift to you.
;)

In 1985, there was a big Philippines exposition in Germany, and Museum fuer Voelkerkunde in Munich (which has an important and early (many collected before 1883) collection of Kris) did publish a small book. There is an article by Rose Schubert (curator for SEA), which explains the hilt pommels (especially Junggayan) exactly the way Ron sees them.

I doubt it's her own idea (of course everything is possible), so I give the publications she put in her bibliography (besides publications already mentioned by Ron in #35):

Casiño, Eric S. 1981, "Arts and Peoples of the Southern Philippines", in Gabriel Casal, "The People and Arts of the Philippines", Los Angeles: Museum of Cultural History, University of California.

Cole, Fay-Cooper, 1914, "The Wild Tribes of Davao District, Mindanao", Field Museum of Natural History, Publ. 170, Antrhropological Series, Vol. XII, No. 2, Chicago.

Foy, W., 1899, "Schwerter von der Celebes See", Publikationen aus dem Königlichen Ethnographischen Museum zu Dresden, Band XII, Dresden.

and, more popular, Juynboll, 1928, "Philippines" and David Szanton, 1963, "Art in Sulu: A Survey", in IPC Papers Nr. 3.

Gustav,

This is excellent news! Would it be possible to scan the article into a PDF file and post it here as an attachment? It is possible to attach .PDF files to a post in the same manner as .JPG and other graphics files.

I have copies of the Casino, Cole, and Foy references but they are on a ship at this time heading for Australia. From memory, I don't recall anything about Moro hilts and their attribution in those references. I don't have the other references you mention. Can you provide more details about the IPC Papers (what does IPC stand for?).

I look forward to reading what Dr Schubert has to say.

Regards,

Ian.

Ron, you are being a little disingenuous here. Every Filipino knows that carabao (or sometimes kalabaw) is the every day common term for the domesticated water buffalo (Bubalus bubalis carabanesis). That carabao might get transliterated to "caribou" is hardly surprising, although clearly incorrect. Nevertheless, the intent of the description is true, some of these pommels were made from carabao horn.

Ron,

You are assuming that Cato implies that the Southern Philippines was fascinated by the cockatoo before contact with Indonesians. However, contact between seafaring Southern Filipinos and peoples to the south of them is believed to have occurred for more than a thousand years (I don't have my historical texts with me at present, but I'm sure that is correct).

That the cockatoo does not appear in Moro traditions is a major weakness of the Cato hypothesis and would seem to contradict his statement that "its elaborately-feathered crest, curving beaks and stately regal bearing have captured the imagination of Moro artists for many centuries." The further south one goes, however, the more likely Cato is to be correct.

If Moro craftsmen did initially copy the style from more southern groups, and so far I know of no scholarship to suggest that they did not, then they may have chosen to keep the style for a variety of reasons. I have used a number of my kris and barung for cutting tests. The beak of the pommel forms a very comfortable resting place for the little finger, while the hypothenar eminence of the palm rests against the crest. This is an ergonomic design well suited to cutting and chopping, allowing the hand to firmly grasp the hilt and preventing slippage of the grip or twisting of the blade when striking. Thus, the adoption of the southern style pommel (kakatua) by the Moros may have had something to do with the ergonomics of the weapon.

This makes some sense to me. It also makes sense that further changes occurred over time, and that what was introduced initially as a hilt representing a kakatua may have come to represent something else that was more consistent with Moro traditions.

So far in our exchanges I have refrained from commenting about my own inquiries on this subject because I don't think they are very useful to the discussion. But here they are for what it's worth. In the late 1990s and early 2000s I spent considerable time in the Philippines (mainly Luzon, Palawan, and Mindanao) pursuing a number of health-related projects. My work took me to Mindanao in the late 1990s and would have continued there but for the 2001 attack on New York and the resulting risks to Americans traveling to Muslim hot spots. In the course of these visits, I also came across a few swords and dealers. Among other things I asked them about the pommel style that Cato called kakatua. Without prompting them or suggesting the name kakatua, I asked what this style was meant to represent. As far as I know, none of them had read Robert Cato's work.

My principal Manila antiques dealer (who was Tagalog) said he thought it represented a cockatoo, based on discussion with his Muslim suppliers of arms (I did not get information about where these suppliers were from). Two dealers in Davao City (both Cebuano) said they did not know, but one thought it might be an eagle. One dealer from Zamboanga thought it was based on a parrot but then said he really did not know. Who knows what to make of this information. However, no mention was made of a mythical rooster.

Ian.

Ian,

IPC stands for Institute of Philippine Culture, Quezon City. The Publisher was Manila University Press.

The article by Schubert written in German, but there is a summary of it in van Duuren's "Krisses" bibliography (2002, Pictures Publishers), and I guess, it should be mentioned also in Tim Rogers' bibliography as he edited van Duuren's book. Here the text by van Duuren:

"Essay about the various weapons of the pirates of the Sulu Islands and North Mindanao, in the accompanying book to the eponymous exhibition that toured Germany in 1985. The author's interest centres on the form of kampilan, a broadsword, and of the Philippine kris, which weapons in her opinion bear the mark of the Dayak people and may subsequently have found their way via Borneo to the southern Philippines where their definitive forms were established. Not only does she contribute an in-depth tratise on local forging techniques, but she also proffers (sic) a surprising new view of the respective kris hilts generated in their wake. Schubert interprets these hilts, the biggest of which have a baroque, curly knob, as representations of a long-tailed bird. This bird form becomes evident once the tip of the blade points upwards; then the knob is shown to be a bird in full flight which carries the kris on its back. The author substantiates her vision with photographs and drawings showing the hilts upside down. However, her views fail to take into account the general consensus that the knob of the Sulu kris represents a stylised bird's head, more specifically that of a cockatoo."

Regards,
Gustav

Arjan kindly has the file on his site:
https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/a4c67...4caceee80c.pdf

Kai,

Thank you for that link. Interesting interpretation by Rose Schubert. I was hoping that this paper would have some data to support Ron's ideas, but it seems that Schubert was guessing as much as we are. Turning the hilt upside down, or switching the head for the tail as I suggested earlier in this thread, are different ways of looking at the representation, but we have no way of knowing if any of these interpretations are correct without clear data to support them.

The suggestion that having the wavy blade (naga) positioned above the representation of the bird would be inconsistent with the naga interpretation of the blade offered by Alan and Ron.

Gustav,

Thank you very much for bringing this interpretation of the hilt to our attention and for noting van Duuren's comments. It is interesting to read that Schubert's views in 1985 ran contrary to the accepted notion that the pommel represented a cockatoo. The German exhibition preceded Cato's publications and the "general consensus" of a cockatoo being depicted on Moro weapons appears to have been around longer than Cato's work. That raises the question of when and how the cockatoo attribution started.

Ian.

Do we have any "clear data" to support that the pommel is a kakatau other than the say-so of Cato and what a few people have claimed they heard here or there? Clearly when you asked the question when you were in the Philippines you got a variety of answers for different dealers that you asks. Some seemed to think kakatau, some said eagle, others didn't know. I don't find it particularly surprising that they would be unaware that it might indeed represent a sarimanok. You could ask the average Javanese person about the deeper meanings of aspects of the keris and in this day and age you would indeed find that most would not be aware of any deeper significance, at least not anything specific. So much information about origins and symbolism has been lost in this region.
You wrote in response to Ron:
If Moro craftsmen did initially copy the style from more southern groups, and so far I know of no scholarship to suggest that they did not, then they may have chosen to keep the style for a variety of reasons. I have used a number of my kris and barung for cutting tests. The beak of the pommel forms a very comfortable resting place for the little finger, while the hypothenar eminence of the palm rests against the crest. This is an ergonomic design well suited to cutting and chopping, allowing the hand to firmly grasp the hilt and preventing slippage of the grip or twisting of the blade when striking. Thus, the adoption of the southern style pommel (kakatua) by the Moros may have had something to do with the ergonomics of the weapon.
Can you tell us what "southern style pommel (kakatau)" you are referring to here. AFAIK this style of pommel is of Moro origin. While it does sometime appear on Malay sundangs i don't believe i have ever seen one old enough on those weapons to be able to say the style originated in those areas. So i don't understand your theory here that this pommel form was adopted from a more southern area and then kept because its ergo dynamic design added in cutting and chopping. :shrug:

David:

All good points. I am not privy to any data Cato may have used. From the comment of van Duuren about the "general consensus" favoring a cockatoo, it appears that more than Cato have shared this opinion and that perhaps it was not his idea originally.

Just where the "cockatoo hilt" style may have originated is unclear. It could have been a migration northwards through Borneo similar to the wavy blade form of the keris. You say that there are no old examples of this hilt form that would support a southern influence. How old do they need to be? If we are talking about 17th or 18th C, then I believe that our forum host, Lee Jones, has an example from that era that was discussed on the old UBB forum (may it rest in peace). IIRC, that kris had a small cockatoo pommel in a style associated with Malaysia or Borneo. I'm away from my books at the moment, but again if I recall correctly Albert van Z. shows several Borneo kris with similar pommels in his book on the arms of the Indonesian Archipelago.

An alternative view is that the pommel style was a back diffusion, from north to south, with its origin in Moroland and then spreading back to Borneo and Malaysia. However, we need to look at the geopolitical forces operating a couple of hundred years ago. At that time the Sulu Archipelago was very much under the influence and control of the Brunei Sultanate. Influences tend to spread from those in power to the subordinate groups, rather than the other way around. How likely is it that a bunch of quarrelsome subordinate groups on the periphery of the Muslim world would influence weapons widely in the region? I don't know, and I don't think anyone else who might post here would know for sure either.

Frustratingly, we are left with a bunch of inductive ideas and very few ways of testing the hypotheses generated. We have one explanation for the shape of the pommel that another author has labeled a "consensus view." It seems to me that it is necessary to topple that idea before a new one can take its place. Which is to say that the "cockatoo hilt" idea stands until, through a deductive process, it can be shown to be wrong. [Obviously all ideas can be discussed and debated, but in the end there is only one that survives the test of truth.]

Ian.

Ian,

to me it seems that the German exhibition preceded Cato's book, but not the comments by van Duuren. He surely was influenced by Cato's view writing he's article on Schubert, as in the same bibliography under Cato, R., Moro Swords, he mentions "the hilt knob in Cackatoo (sic) shape" and writes: "Moro Swords is - at the time of writing - the definitive work on the Philippine kris."

Regards,
Gustav

Thanks Gustav.

Van Duuren's comments seem off the mark if he expected that she would have known about the cockatoo hilt theory in 1985, and Cato did not publish his book until about 10 years later! I'm thinking he had something else in mind when he wrote: "However, her views fail to take into account the general consensus that the knob of the Sulu kris represents a stylised bird's head, more specifically that of a cockatoo." A consensus implies agreement among several people, and his comment seems to indicate she should have known this in 1985. Curious.

Ian.

it's true, every Filipino worth its salt would know the term, and yes, i'm with you that the term "carabao" was most likely been transliterated to caribou, but the thing is, Joe Public from Missouri back in the 1920's who collected these bringback souvenirs doesn't know any better, and i highly doubt any Filipino back then would be able to correct him, or Bannerman for that matter. Just like the term "cockatoo"...

Hello Ian,

Thanks for your added info!


Was the dealer from Zamboanga of Moro origin? I reckon the others are not really authoritative informants on Moro culture and any Moro runners (bringing the pieces in) may well have been ignorant at that late time period (or rather chosen to not divulge cultural knowledge to outsiders).

It sure is like pulling good teeth... :o

Regards,
Kai

Hello Ron,

That's certainly plausible - we've seen that happening with quite some collectors' terminology and also science is often trottling along with "published" ideas until they get challenged by critical thinking and, especially, facts...

Alas, could you please add data? (I. e. citing those references you've found, especially the early ones!) I assume these are dealers' cats like Oldman? TIA!

Regards,
Kai

Hello Ian,

Sorrily, she does not clearly state whether this is her own idea or gleaned from another source. As she doesn't give any citations when explaining this idea (while doing so elsewhere in the paper), one would tend to believe this was her own deduction; she also does not mention the sarimanok.

I certainly would be cautious of her suggestion that the bird is actually meant to be carrying the sword (blade). Or at least to utilize this assumption to argue for a "correct" orientation of the stylized figural carving.

Even for a warrior society like the Moro groups, most of the time a sword pommel will on display while carried in scabbard (i. e. with the pommel pointing up). However, this certainly is not its most crucial use, even for a status piece. Thus, the jury is still out on how any of these possibly/probably talismanic features were assumed to "work" by traditional Moro cultures.


We certainly can look for additional hints from genuine pommels. The only example with a pretty compelling figural style that comes to my mind would be Chris' sarimanok kris (pics in post #50 above) and even that is stylized/ukilized enough to leave room for arguing if one wanted to play devil's advocate.


Not necessarily inconsistent IMHO. (And the other orientation would be not work out nicely as well.)

Undoubtably, there is lots of carry-over from earlier cosmologies into the Moro tradition(s); however, one would expect details to change/(d)evolve over time and there usually is enough flexibility to add another bonus feature or two... ;)

Regards,
Kai

I'm afraid i completely disagree here. IF Cato's theory actually had been clearly sourced and references for his kakatau theory had been disclosed in his writings i might well agree. But simply because his idea is the only one published or that occasionally someone has mentioned that the kakatau theory is a "consensus view" (Consensus of whom exactly? When? Where? Why?) is not enough in my mind to validate it as the superior theory. It does not seem that the kakatau theory has been any more "tested" than the sarimanok one. I see no reason why both these theories should not be given equal standing as theories since neither can be seen as anything more than an inductive idea at this point. There is no substantial fact to be toppled here. :shrug:

I'm afraid I completely agree with David here. ;)

We should compile data for both hypotheses (as well as looking out for additional claims) and compare their respective standing in due time.

Regards,
Kai

Hey Kai, maybe neither of us should be afraid. Peaceful co-existence of theories is not something that we need fear. LOL! ;) :)

Hello Ian,

It sure wasn't his idea - Ron traced the notion back to the early 20th c.
It would be more interesting whether he had Moro informants confirming this view - he did not wrote that down though...


Well, the keris migrated over the sea. There are enough Malay coastal settlements around Borneo as well as other islands to allow for convenient "stepping stones" and keeping in touch.


Given the scarcity of well-provenanced pieces from the early colonial period, I doubt we'll ever know for sure. I also believe we should be very cautious with estimating the absolute (rather than relative) age of any pieces! With a lot of work, we may be able to establish lines of evolution but reliably linking those to "real" historical events will be more than tough IMVHO.

Also note that hilt types we currently associate with Malaya, may not have been confined to Malaya in earlier times nor necessarily being of Malay origin!


The examples shown in Albert's book are not particularly old; most appear to be Moro blades that ended up in East Borneo.


Well, knowing for sure sets the benchmark very high.

I'd posit that the keris sundang melayu got heavy influence from their Moro cousin till pretty recent times: You see a lot of Moro blades in Malay fittings but hardly any the other way around!

I also believe that you underestimate the Malay trading network which allowed for a continuous flux of trade goods all over the archipelago (additionally aided by traders of many other ethnic groups including Bugis, many Chinese groups, Arab, etc.): The most busy ports were true melting pots with wealthy inhabitants always on the look for cool stuff to display their status! This was going on despite political struggles and Machiavellian strategies. And, of course, more active Moro groups were all over the place with raiding parties and settlements (18th-19th c.).

Regards,
Kai

Hello Ron,

Nowadays we'd blame autocorrection... ;) :o :p

I believe this to be a mere printing error, i. e. a glitch/lapsus introduced during type-setting. Usually proof reading was done by competent specialists; however, this type of mistake is difficult to catch. And a mere catalog might have got less attention (and less funds allocated, too).

Regards,
Kai

Ron,

I was looking through some old reference books and browsing Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, ed. Bud Lang, 5th edition, Krause Publishing:Iola, WI, 2001.

Several foreign knives are included in this encyclopedic book, and I have reproduced below the page that shows some Philippines knives. On p. 488 it shows a "Philippines (Northern Mindanao) Moro Dagger" (number G.8). In the description it refers to an "elaborate bird-head ("sarimanuk") hilt of a silver-copper alloy." It further notes that this knife has a "19th century blade in 20th century mounts." I have enlarged that item and posted it below--the pics are not very good owing to the low quality of the original printing.

The hilt style does seem 20th C. to me, maybe post-WWII, and resembles a style that I think was developed for marketing to tourists. Typically, these knives have elaborate hilts and guards with lots of curls. The copper alloy of the hilt and guard is often repeated in the scabbard, which is usually all metal. These highly decorative knives are fairly common and often have thin, poor quality blades made from sheet steel--wavy blades are found on them, and these have sharply pointed luk that likely indicate the waves have been ground rather than forged.

The ornamentation of these hilts resembles to me the depictions of feathers on the mythical sarimanok that you have referenced, and I wonder if this is where the idea that the hilt represents that creature may have arisen.

This is the only reference to a "sarimanuk hilt" I have been able to find.

Ian.


.

When i search for "Sarimanok hilt" i find a good number of hits lead me to these very old (10-13 century) gold hilts. I do not believe these swords were kris per se, but this does seem to help establish the symbolic use of the Sarimanok within the culture as hilts and pommels for swords going back centuries ago.

Hello David,

There seems to be no extant sources corroborating that these hilts really were attributed to the same "mythological beast" originally nor has it been established that there is any continuous line of cultural descent. Arguing that the Maranao figurines are similar enough to the gold hilts to prove any connection seems overly enthusiastic to me to say the least.

Thus, I'm far from convinced that this attribution holds any water! I'll ask Lorenz - maybe he can point us to the origin of this attribution/story...

Regards,
Kai

Thanks, Ian!

I'm not aware of a single antique example of this (hilt) type. Chances are that this is a modern invention by Marawi craftsmen (most likely post-WW2 as you suggest) which received a well-selling attribution... ;)

Regards,
Kai

I am arguing nothing here Kai, simply presenting information for consideration. That is why i said that these images "seem to help establish" rather than "here is the evidence that this is true." ;)
I do believe, however, that one can find a great deal of commonality between these old bird-like gold hilts and various depictions of the Sarimanok. They do indeed seem to be abstract bird heads and they look quite similar to many established depictions of Sarimanok.
Here is some further information about the Sarimanok gathered from the internet. There are numerous origin stories so it is difficult sorting out what the actual development of this mythological beast actually is, but it is clearly an old and important symbolic creature to the region while one can find little to nothing showing the importance of kakatau (cockatoo) to the Moro.
BTW, it does seem that most sources of information that i encounter seem to define the word "Sarimanok" as Sari-article of clothing, usually colorful and Manok-chicken or bird. So the Sairmanok is seen as a colorfully dressed bird. In some stories it seems to have its roots with the Maranao totem bird called Itotoro who has an invisible spirit twin called Inikadowa and together they act as a medium to the spirit world.
Another theory is the the Sarimanok came from the Garuda and then developed into its own creature. It does appear, however, that it did exist in Maranao lore before the arrival of the Spanish.
The FMA blog linked here cites its use as a symbol of resistance against the Spanish. Perhaps another reason why such a symbolic presence might end up being represented on a kris used to fight in such resistance.
And yes, none of this is particularly back up by any strong extant sources that Kai (and i believe all of us) would like to see. But i must remind you Cato's hypothesis that the pommel of the kris that we speak about here might represent a kakatau does not really have any more evidence behind it either. ;)

http://pinoy-culture.com/the-sariman...of-lake-lanao/

http://12fma.blogspot.com/2008/06/sa...no-spirit.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarimanok

Hi Kai:

Yes, I agree. The fanciful metal hilts and sheaths with baroque-like flourishes seem to be late 20th C. and made in Mindanao. When I visited Zamboanga in the 1990s I found them in the markets and tourist areas where they were moderately inexpensive souvenirs. The blades were disappointing and some were not even sharpened. They were also to be found in tourist outlets in Metro Manila (Intramuros, Makati, Quezon City, etc.) around the same time.


Ian.

David:

Thanks for the additional research. I found the article on the Pinoy-Culture site particularly helpful in setting out diverse theories about the origins of the sarimanok. The blog comments are interesting opinions but offer less than the other article.

Because Filipino web sites tend to disappear over time, I downloaded these article and post them here as PDF files for future reference.

Ian.

--------------Attachment: Copies of Sarimanok Articles---------------
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