Maurice, one of the problems that we sometimes face in this Forum is clarity of intent.

This is an English language Forum, but we have a very multi-cultural population of members, people for whom English is not their native language. I, and I am certain, all of us who are native English speakers very much appreciate the effort made by the non-native speakers of English who contribute to discussion, however, sometimes misunderstandings can occur. For example, I misread the tone of Michael's post on "order" as a directive to myself and others to proceed in discussion in a particular way that had already been decided upon by Michael. My interpretation was shown to be incorrect, as Michael subsequently pointed out, what he had written was only a clarification of his own preferences.

It seems a misunderstanding of my own intent may also have occurred. I thought that the content of my posts was clear, but apparently either the tone or the actual text has been misunderstood somewhere along the line so I'll try to clarify.

1)---I do not doubt that this type of sword can be found in many places throughout the Indonesian Archipelago.

2)---I do not doubt that it can be found in Lombok, even though there seems to be some evidence for its origin and existence in Southern Sumatera.

3)---My use of the phrase:- "my area of confusion" means exactly what it says, it not a polite way of casting doubt on anything; I am confused by the existence of this style of sword in both Southern Sumatera and Lombok.
Why?
Because the history of Lombok does not reveal any sociological link of substance that would explain the existence of this style of sword in these two widely placed locations. The Dutch were not really a contributing factor until the late 19th century, and did not gain any sort of substantial foothold until the early 20th century.
The Sasak are regarded as indigenous to Lombok and Islam became the general belief system during the 16th century; the island was not united and constant fighting existed between the Sasak, the Balinese colonised Lombok, and they brought it under control during the first half of the 19th century; the Bugis also established settlements in Lombok and challenged the Balinese. Nowhere can there be seen any input from South Sumatera, and the Dutch influence virtually did not exist until the early 20th century. However, Djelengga refers to this type of sword as a "traditional weapon of Lombok", and obviously a weapon of the Sasak people.

I wrote exactly what I meant:- I am confused; very often with the transference of material culture throughout the Indonesian Archipelago we can see clear and verifiable links. In the case of this item of material culture I cannot identify any such links, or even influences. Thus my confusion.
Incidentally, Djelengga calls this a "kelewang". In Jawa we'd call it a pedang. Using English I feel that "sword" is perhaps more appropriate.

I do hope that the above adequately clarifies what I meant in my previous post.

To respond to your comments, Maurice.

It seems that contrary to perhaps everybody else who has commented on this blade ornamentation, I do not find it to be particularly good. Previously I have referred to "this style" or "this type" of blade ornamentation, and by that I mean superficial applied silver ornamentation upon a very recently polished surface that has subsequently been false patinated. This type of work is most often produced by people who sell out of a particular market in Surabaya, and is also done in Jogja. The Surabaya source has been in existence for a very long time, the Jogja source for a shorter period, both have been producing since at least the 1950's.

It is rule of the trade in Jawa that when one had something that is very difficult to sell, for one reason or another, then action needs to be taken to enhance that object to make it a desirable product. This sword is badly damaged, and would be extremely difficult to find a buyer for in the Indonesian market, so it was enhanced to make it saleable. I do not know if the text on this particular sword is true text, or simply a mixture of symbols that looks like text, I can identify some characters, others seem to me like scribbles, but I am not at all qualified to give an opinion on this. However, whether it is true text, or whether it is a mockery of text, that does not alter the nature of this ornamentation, nor the reason it was done.


Maurice, you have requested that I post images of the sort of thing I am writing about.

I cannot do this. I wrote that I have seen this sort of thing, not that I possessed it. In fact I have very little interest in the various and sundry swords and daggers of Indonesia. My prime area of study is the keris, particularly of Jawa and Bali, and to a lesser degree the tombak. However, during any given year it is inevitable that I see and handle a very great number of keris, tombak, swords, daggers and other items of Indonesian material culture. I do not buy all these things, I simply look at them and buy a fraction of a percent.

Maurice, I do apologize for being brutal, but what I have written is my professional opinion, an opinion that has been formed by being a part of the Javanese keris trade for in excess of 30 years, and from being taught by a man who began dealing in keris and other traditional weapons in the late 1940's. What I am describing here has been going on since at least the late 19th century.


I think I should terminate my involvement in this thread. It seems that my presence here is only detracting from what would otherwise be a nice, mutually satisfactory exchange of opinions. Regrettably all opinions are not equal.

I agree concerning the English language. For me it's also not that simple and often I need a translationprogramm on my computer, just as many of us.
The misreading, however, could also happen to native speakers of English mutually, as sometimes the accent or tone could be interpretated different, as if one should talk to eachother face to face and you can see the expressions and accents in combination with the bodylanguage, which is lacking in a forum.
I do appreciate you're trying to clarify some misunderstandings, which are certainly slipped in accidentally.



You're right that Lombok was not interesting for the Dutch in the early VOC times, and that the interferences began in times of the "betrayel of Lombok", in 1894.
Though the Dutch surely were present often in the fairways (if that's the correct word) near Lombok.
Probably I shouldn't brought that up in my earlier comment, as it indeed seems to be not relevant here in the discussion of the sword (pedang) discussed here.
If you look at it the way you explained here, I now understand there's no connection known between the Sumatran people and the Sasak people whatso ever in history.



It seems that these kind of swords, as Michael allready mentioned in a previous comment, show up in several area's.
This without knowing what all the connections could be between those area's, and why this partically sword shows up in such many different places.
For instance Banks mentions a similar one in an article, where he mentioned it to be used by Sea dayaks, and he named it in that article "Senangkas".

Could you explain to me who "Djelengga" is?
Forgive my ignorance, but when searching in this forum, I noticed only you mentioned this man a few times, and at any time there's no forummember who asked you who he is.
Probably they all know who he is, and I somehow am not familiar with him, so a short explanation would help for me.



I know about the particular markets you're referring. I've seen their "work" for hours on the tv, as they're acquaintances of a friendcollector of mine who hang out with them a couple of times a year.
And I appreciate you're experience and it's of great value sharing it in this thread.
Concerning the pedang we're discussing here, there's a part which still has the old patina over the silverwork bedause it probably wasn't cleaned that well on that area as on the rest of the blade, as I mentioned before. And for my experiences with cleaning mandau blades with lots of silver or brass inlay, I know that I can clean it easily till the brass and silverwork shine like new, and the blade itself is showing the same patination as before, just by using a dishsoap and a scourer.



I know about embellishment of stuff which doesn't sell. But writing this sword down as badly damaged and extremely difficult to find a buyer for, sounds very strange to me. But again, everybody could have his own oppinion of collecting and I respect that in this forum!
I think that here we have the clear difference between keris collectors and the tribal sword collectors in general.
For a keris collector things have to be perfect, and they don't mind throwing away old dresses of kerisses and change them for new ones made on the one of the markets you mentioned above. Also handles from same regions are changing, just to make it more beautifull and it almost seemed to be accepted by most of the keris collectors.
For antique tribal sword collectors like me, we see beauty in old swords, preferably in original condition. When speaking for myself I like the old damages, IF they are old and not recently made by imprudence by previous owners.
According the pedang here in question: For example there had been mentioned these were brought a sackfull by Lombok dealers in Detlefs comment (he refers to a another vikingswordforum link).
Why wheren't those swords heavily decorated with texts, or where they? Because they look prettier as this one? I really don't understand that, to make such efforts of labour, if there were probably numerous in the antiqueshops in certain times. Is this one so bad that they needed to write it full from all sides with texts to make it salable?
With this particular sword it doesn't make sense to me at all, when comparing it with other pedangs I've seen which look a lot worse and were not written down with all kind of decorations and/or texts.
My opinion is that this sword with it's beautifully carved handle, and a beautifully smooth blade with two nice fullers didn't need to get written such extensively to get sold or wanted.
But again, that's mine opinion.




OK, I can understand that as they are not your swords, and it would be inpropriate to post images here.
But what I think is very strange here is that nobody is able to depict images of swords with the same comparitively inlay, even on other swords as pedangs.
I would say if it was done on the Javanese markets since at least the 1950's to get them better salable, there would be numerous of these and there would be somebody who could attach images here, wouldn't it?
Till I've not seen any images to compare them, I will not take it for granted this is probably very recent work. That's the nature of the beast (if it's translated correctly from a Dutch saying).
And don't get me wrong, I don't doubt you're knowledge Alan. But I also don't doubt my own findings, and I need proofs from articles, museums, comparison pieces to make my own "common sense" result...



Alan, don't apologize, as everybody has his own opinion and everybody is free to discuss here, within the forum rules.
Also I really appreciate that, with your experience during all those years of studying and collecting kerisses, you're involved in this thread and share your findings.
I know a lot of "senior" collectors, and some of them collect and study even much longer as 30 years and are more the "quiet" collectors, and not participating on forums, though they are lurking once in a while.
With this group I have lots of very nice contact, and we discuss swords through email, or when I visit them a few times a year we go through their collection, which is great to exchange knowledge and compare pieces with eachother.
Most of the swords they collect have great provenance, or were bought in the very early days from people who inherited the pieces from relatives who directly brought them back as war trophies from concerning area.
Those are the swords to research (besides provenanced museumpieces) and not the ones that are/were sold in Indonesian antiqueshops (forgive me if I am offending somebody here, but this is my opinion).
Also as a "non professional", and a relatively young collector, I may be proud to say that I learned a lot in short time, and did some comprehensive research projects, which I did with help of Dutch museums and its curators, and the senior collectors/researchers I mentioned.



Alan, feel free to discuss!
We're all here to learn from eachother.
In discussions all opinions are never equal, otherwise it wouldn't be a discussion and nothing will be learnt.
I just am not really easy to convince as long as I can easily disprove statements made without images, old articles or references to old provenanced pieces! I guess that's a good quality being a serious collector. :rolleyes:

Rg,
Maurice

Hi Maurice,

I nice piece and as discussed, I am happy you won it, it was meant to be. I'll share the other one in time.

Tonight I have little time for writing but wish to note that Adni of MAG notes these as "klewang from the island of Lombok", perhaps an email to Adni may reveal some further information.
All but a few of my books are now in storage along with most of the family home contents...but what does Buttin mention about these swords?

Gavin

Thank you for your further comments Maurice.

"Djelengga" was Ir. H. Lalu Djelengga. He is now deceased. He authored "Keris di Lombok", published by Yayasan Pusaka Selaparang, it is out of print, and probably not able to be obtained, but you might find somebody with a photocopy for sale. This is the best reference for keris and other weapons from Lombok.

The 30 years I mentioned is the approximate time I have been involved in the keris trade in Jawa. My tuition by Empu Suparman began as near as I can recall, in 1982, and I had been buying in Indonesia long before that and selling internationally since 1978. Empu Suparman had dealt in keris and other traditional weapons, from the late 1940's, long before he was made a kraton empu. My actual study of keris and Javanese art, history and culture began when I was about 13 or 14, my collecting interest began when I was about 12, but I first came into contact with keris much earlier than that. I am now 72.

Maurice, I appreciate your invitation to continue discussion of this sword, but I will withdraw from discussion. I believe you will be much happier with comments from people other than myself, and apart from that, there is much I could say that I am duty bound not to say--- particularly in an internet discussion group that is open to everybody in the whole world to read.

Anything I might be able to add to what I have already said would serve no purpose at all.

Hello Maurice,

I was going to suggest "Made in China" but you beat me to it. :p

Sorry for deserting this thread - going to add more soon.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Maurice,

Yup, I did saw those laminations - looks promising indeed! This blade is certainly nice - not sure how likely it was during the 19th century to add extensive scripture to an intricately (non-random) pattern-welded blade though...

My own rule of thumb is that the more script is found on any blade, the more suspicious I should be.


I agree that I've seen much worse examples which were obviously modern. However, with low wages in Indonesia even quality work is not neccessarily an indication for something being genuine/antique.

Just for example: In this case, I'd have expected nicer floral decorations. Or none if space were too limited.

I hope we'll compilate more inlaid pieces for comparision here (haven't found any genuine antique example of sword blades with such extensive scripture yet; did not do a comprehensive search though).


There were obviously different techniques utilized (cp. John's sikin panjang blade), so comparision of quality and possibly estimating age would need to account for several variables.


Yup, I did stipulate this already.


The horn pommel does seem to have really good age; I don't think real patina is much affected by repeated gentle cleaning. I believe that regular handling does help to keep the horn "alive" rather than drying out too much in storage, especially in low humidity.

Regards,
Kai

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10561
Here's the link to Detlef's sword; from the pics, the inlay looks recent to me.

Regards,
Kai

Hello Maurice,

Well, the only really old source which readily comes to mind is Schmeltz (1890; attached). And Fischer has it in the catalog for South Sumatra (1918).

Regards,
Kai

Here's my only pedang with (limited) inlay. Just to get a bit of diversity in, not necessarily the pinnacle of quality though. ;)

Regards,
Kai

Well, this is just my opinion, but i would also think that these inscriptions are relative recent to the blade. The blade itself does seem to be old as does the rest of the ensemble. I do like those fullers. There has been a lot of talk on this thread about the patina. Obviously there is some patina here, but there is also a lot of dirt. Dirt is not patina. Sliver can be cleaned up without removing patina. Wood and horn can be revitalized without removing patina.
I have never seen a blade from this areas with this extent of writing on the blade that wasn't either obviously recent or at least suspicious. I am sorry that i have no examples to show as this is a bit outside my collection area. Perhaps since this is your collection area you could show us some provenanced examples that you know of to have have true age to their extensive inlay work. It also seems odd that given the extensive wear on this blade that the inlay appears so pristine. You would think that it would be missing some areas of inlay as you see in the last example that Kai has posted if there was real age to it.
So, is ANYONE able to translate the writing? :shrug:

Exactly this one was meant, have forgotten that I have posted pictures at this place. Agree, the inlays look recent to me as well.

Regards,

Detlef

Kai,

Your pedang has a djadwal (a talismanic table) and not Qur'anic quotes.
Have you posted it before on this forum?
If not, maybe you can start a thread about it?
Maybe it has other Banjar characteristics, too?


Michael

Hello Michael,

Yup, that's the reason why I feel more comfortable about it being genuine.


Not yet - will get some more pics and post them.


This one doesn't seem to have any obvious Banjar characteristics AFAIK. Am looking forward to more comments from you on this pedang!

Regards,
Kai

Hello David,

Maurice has a point though: it could also be argued the other way around (good quality work won't fail as easily). I guess we need additional approaches to get a better grip on these inlays.


I've PMed Dom and hope he and his better half will have a look...

Regards,
Kai

I am back home now for a day so here is the page that Alan referred to from Djelengga for everybody to read.

Based on my kindergarten level of Bahasa, he is writing that this is a traditional sword of Lombok and it is only used as weapon. That is the reason that some of them do not have pamor, but in the past they did. They are made locally by Lombok pande.

(Please correct my simple translation if I have misunderstood something)

Michael

I think we have had the same kindergarten education in Bahasa Indonesia, I understand it in a similar way.

Regards,

Detlef

Hi Gavin,

Please do share the other one when you have some time (and if it will reach you ofcourse. ;-) ).

Thank you also for your input! I'll see what I can find out with your references!

Maurice

Dear Alan,

Thank you very much for your reply and your explanation of Djelengga.
Somehow I really never heard about him, and now I'm certainly going to look if I find a copy somewhere of this probably most interesting work!

It's a truly interesting history of study keris and art etc you have built up.... I really respect that a lot, and therefore I really enjoyed having our debating.
Thank you for participating, and feel free to bump in any time you want.
It's always good to have such experienced collectors/researchers around on these forums!

Regards,
Maurice

Hello Kai,

Thanks for bringing this one up. Ofcourse I was aware of this one (and also about the Fischer catalogue), but I meant a more extended work about these kind of weapons...
Hopefully we find more in future

Regards,
Maurice

Thanks Kai for sharing this one!
Looks like a very nice one. Can you show us an image of the whole sword?

Hi David, ofcourse I also know the difference of dirt and patina.
What I'm trying to prevent is that this old piece will get the very shiny appearance which is seen on a lot of old pieces by overcleaning.
According this piece I really like the contrast! Very good patina on the handle, blade and scabbard, and the mint condition of the silver inlay.
If I will clean this piece too much, probably most people would say the whole pedang is a new one. ;)

My collecting area is Borneo, as you all know by know. But besides that I still like to collect some "odd" and "rare" pieces too.

I agree that the silverwork inlay is very pristine according the patina. It could be that it's indeed done latter, or that it had been preserved very good somehow because of one reason or the other.
What I do know about the inlay, is that according mandaus you also see differences. Mandaus from the Mahakam area have much more quality inlay and almost never are missing inlay, also when they are very old.
Mandaus of the same age from the Baram area however, often misses a lot of dots. Reason??? (smaller dots?, less quality of the brass,silver?, less craftmanship?)

Waiting for a translation.... :o

Indeed a very different quality of inlay...

Thanks for posting the image of concerning Djelengga page!
Looks like a must have article to me...

Maurice

If you want I can copy some pages for you and send it to you.

Regards,

Detlef

Detlef's example in the swap looks more like koftgari work imho.

The verse in question was from Quran chapter 27 verse 30. It relates to the story of King Solomon. The translation reads as follows:

"Indeed, it is from Solomon, and indeed it reads, "In the name of Allah, the Entirely Merciful, the Especially Compassionate".

Believed this is the only chapter in the holy Quran that does not start with Basmallah as the verse was mentioned within its chapter itself.

The verse relates to the story of King Solomon writing a letter to Balqis, Queen of Sheba extending her to the worship of one true God. Not a typical story that you would probably find in the old testament, I must say.

except the script on the sword is full of repitition of the bassmallah and I cannot find any verse in it :-)

Jentayu, thanks for your translation.
However, I almost spilled out my morning coffee when I read your comment about the Basmallah.
I think you mixed it up. It is the 9th surah, At-Tawbah, that is the only sura not starting with Basmallah. Among "some esoteric Muslims" this complete surah has strong protective qualities.
The 27th is the only surah where Basmallah is also within the surah.
Probably this exception also makes this specific verse strongly protective and talismanic, too.
Basmallah, by itself, has of course very strong protective qualities, too.

Michael

Yes Michael you are right. I got it mixed up with Suratul Tawba. Chapter 27, An Naml where basmallah was mentioned in its chapter while At Tawba is the one without basmallah for start.

Jentayu, thank you for the translation.
Is this translation repeated on the sides of the blade? (as the translation seems so short concerning all the texts written on the blade)...

And can you tell something about the meaning of the text/figures on the spine?

Michael thanks a lot for your correction, and I'm sorry it took you a half cup of coffee spoilt at first!
But that's a lot more interesting as what Jentayu is saying about the verse!

Unfortunately I don't have any knowledgement about these kind of verses.
So I understand it right that the text on the blade is from the 27th verse?

Kind regards,
Maurice

HERE IS A SIMULAR EXAMPLE OF MINE WITH INLAYED INSCRIPTIONS. BLADE 24IN. TOTAL 30 IN. NO SCABBARD. SILVER WITH CARVED HORN POMMEL. WAS SAID TO BE 19TH. CENTURY. I WOULD BE INTERESTED IN WHAT IT SAYS OR IF IT IS SOME SORT OF CALENDAR OR TAILSMANIC TABLE. THANKS

MY EXAMPLE WITH SWASSA AND GOLD UNFORTUNATELY THE SWASSA SCABBARD TIP IS MISSING AND REPLACED WITH A POORLY MADE COPPER ONE. THIS EXAMPLE HAS AN INTERESTING PARMOR BLADE AS WELL. 30 INCHES LONG IN SCABBARD.

TWO MORE EXAMPLES BOTH WITH SILVER THE SMALLER ONE IS 24 1/4 IN. LONG IN SCABBARD. SILVER COVERED SCABBARD WITH ROUGH TEXTURED WATERED STEEL BLADE, HORN POMMEL.
2. SILVER COVERED GRIP WITH A FEW COPPER BANDS HEAVY WATERED STEEL BLADE WITH SMOOTH FINISH. 26 IN. LONG IN SCABBARD.

Thanks for adding your pieces, Barry!

Both examples from your last post look like Lombok workmanship to me.

The suasa piece is very sweet! IMHO this one is from Sumatra.

I'd love to see the inlay of the first piece more clearly since this is especially pertinent for this thread! Could you please give resizing another try? Thanks a lot!

Regards,
Kai

Barry, thank you for your contribution here!
The one you have with inlaid blade looks also nice.
Hopefully you can get more clear and blown up images like Kai suggests?

Maurice

I am sorry, yet also to me the inlays of the initial Pedang seem to be done at least after the WWII.

Maurice, you probably have seen the other indonesian items from the original auction. These items surely weren't collected before 60ties.

http://katalog.auktionshaus-wendl.co...at/h/119/a/76/

Especially the kerisses have touch of beeing made to catch a colector with some bigger money, yet not so good understanding of materia.

You also see, how many indonesian items are returned to the auction house.

For comparison some other stuff coming out of Lombok these days.

It is interesting that the other pedang classified as Lombok by the auction house also seems to have the features of Lombok according to my earlier post.
Maybe the tags are the original collection tags (no joke anymore about this) and that they both actually were collected in 1945 on Lombok by the original owner?

Michael

The tags could indicate a year or could not: look through the other tags of this collection.

Honestly said, if there would be a tag, which explicitly states, the item has been collected 1945, I would believe it in the same degree as I believe in the authenticity of the most other items of this collection. To me this collection simply is not serious enough. We should look on the item and not on the tag. I stated my opinion about this item in the previous post and have nothing more to add to this thread.

Thanks!

VVV,

I believe I see what you are saying about the varying, but similar hilt styles.

Would you say that the top example here is more likely Lombok, while the bottom one is more likely Sumatra??

There is a real difference in the angles(with the Lombok example sharper) and detail in the horn carving.