If we remember that Indra is a war god the elephant he rides is a battle elephant. War elephants often had headdresses attached to the head and trunk. These armour headdresses often had sharp spikes attached. This would explain the spikes on the Gajah as being an elephant armour headdress.

Pusaka, i think you need to get your mode of thinking about the keris and it's significance out of the sphere of battles and war. Your martial thinking is not leading you to a proper understanding of the keris. Your concepts of "good vs. evil" are very western. Yes, the keris is in the form of an edged weapon, but it's significance goes deeper than that.

On the contrary, one can't describe unity without leaving the field of unity, so there are guide posts or symbols to point the way which appear dualistic depending on the state of mind. too esoteric, pm

Please explain this ricikan and greneng with your vedic war elephant theory .
There are a fairly high percentage of keris that lack detail in the ricikan from Jawa and the Celebes ; I have even seen Moro kris with plain ricikan .

I am not questioning the dualistic approach per se as being too western, just the absolute B&W, good & evil understanding. Those who follow the cult of Kali are not necessarily "evil", they merely have a different perspective. Yes, it is esoteric and complex.... :)

Yes, and if everyone has the potential to reach truth, I would not expect every answer or path to be the same, or every keris/kris to fit into the same mold...its an open forum for minds to write freely

Ok since you seam to think that everything I have said is wrong then maybe you can correct me? Don’t give me the “I don’t know but I know your wrong” treatment because it’s not smart.

A fair request, Pusaka. But a bit defensive as phrased. Let's all take a breath and try to share information in a non-confrontational manner.

Thanks.

You know guys, there's no place on earth where you can find a forum like this, it's breath taking! and I'm loving it every moment of it.
Please continue, it's very educational specially for a newbies like me.

Nice thread!

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .

Thanks Rick, Alan's articles are a very good read and i get something more out of them everytime i read them.
Pusaka, a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing, but too much of it at once could kill a man. ;) :)
I am not trying to be confrontational when i suggest you might be on the wrong track. I clearly stated at the beginning of this thread what my position is on this subject and the true difficulties that lie in the path of understanding the symbolism that may (or may not) lie behind the keris. Also, much time has already be devoted to this subject and you may find some answers in the archives. But as Mabagani points out, paths are different and could lead to different answers. You seem to want your answers in black & white and i am afraid it's not so cut and dry. You also seem to have already reached your own conclusions on the subject and i'm not so sure you would be open to my theories on the subject. I can tell you that i don't believe the symbolism of the keris is about war and conflict. I would highly recommend you read the articles which Rick has linked to (a few times really :) ) and draw your own conclusions.

If you think I was suggesting that the keris symbolises war and conflict then you have misunderstood my message.
The keris (in my opinion) symbolises the interaction of two opposite forces. Balance, Order, unity. Man and a number of other things. I dont think that one answer can be universally applied to all keris because as you know there is too much diversity for that. All I was trying to do is give some answers. I have not already made up my decision about the symbolism, I am open to ideas and would love to hear others ideas on the matter.

Have you read the two articles linked to in my post yet ?
Did you come into contact with the keris through silat ?

Thanks Rick
I needed to read the links again too.
Some of the relationships are starting to fall into place regarding the Philippines as it related to the rest of ancient Southeast Asia, examples include an early written artifact dated from the 9th century in Luzon, to other Hindu statues traced to the 12th century and Ramayana versions in Mindanao. The study may show why "modern" keris motifs from an earlier period carry over into the kris origin with multiple designs on the same sword type.

I can see how a Keris could also be interpreted as a Naga. Actually it’s very interesting because if you remember what I said about the Tibetan Phurba also having the elephant and dragon motif there are some interesting findings. Tibet was heavily influenced by India as was Indonesia so could the Tibetan Phurba and the Indonesian Keris have developed from a Vedic Indian dagger?? The Tibetan Phurba its self represents a Naga as could the Keris. If you look at the photos of the Naga you will notice something very interesting, look at the posture. Back slightly bent, hands on stomach. In the case of a Naga the hands are usually holding a wish fulfilling jewel at the level of the navel. Same posture seen in Majapahit Keris. The upper body is human in likeness but the lower half is snake like. The bottom half could easily be a blade, straight or wavy. The early accounts of a blade with a human like handle could be Nagas. The fact that the blade is straight dose not mean that the dagger can not represent a Naga. What is interesting is that in Tibet they kept the blade straight but instead carved snakes on it. I think we will find the common source of both these blades in Vedic India. Note that the phurba is also sometimes made from Meteorite as is the Keris.

I guess you must have me on your ignore list .

You may construct any suit of clothes that you wish to fit this cultural icon Pusaka but it does not necessarily mean that they are the correct ones .

You're welcome Mabagani , there is good fodder in those two pieces ; stuff that every person trying to understand the keris should read and refer back to on occasion .
Mr. Maisey is a virtual treasure trove of information and keris lore .

A half century of research and study cannot be just tossed aside .

Thanks
 

Thank you all gentlemen,

I think this is a very important element of reference that deserves a bit more of study anf of systemization.

The thread picked up speed and perhaps somebody like Battara or Fred Malibago could do something of a copy and paste for reason that some will know.

Thank you Pusaka for illustrating my photo.
This is absolutely fascinating.

Thank you all :)

************************************************** ********
Rick Wrote:

Have all involved in this discussion read these articles ?

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/KERISANDNAGA.html

http://www.nikhef.nl/~tonvr/keris/keris2/origin.html

IMO they're very important to read and digest whether you agree with the conclusions or not .

I personally come to the conclusion however disappointing it may be that the keris and its true history are lost to time and that discussing and interpreting the meanings are like trying to hold an egg with no shell .

There is no B&W answer , only opinions and interpretations and these vary from each societal period that the keris has existed through right up to the present .
************************************************** ********

Just quoting Rick's post for the URLs. :)

Hey Pusaka, can't remember if I've welcomed you to the forum before, but just in case I haven't, welcome!

You have now experienced first-hand how controversial and emotionally-charged the keris discussions can get in this forum. Actually, I'd hazard that it's the same everywhere. Its the 'power' of keris, I guess. :D

You have many interesting ideas about the keris and you have a good ability to link images and symbols from different cultural settings, and draw connections between them, but what you are putting forth are hypotheses that have not been put through a rigorous academic/research process to substantiate them. And where it is a hypothesis, it may be good to state so, so that they are not taken as facts, especially by fellow members just starting out on the "Keris journey" (Yes, I liken collecting and studying Keris to an endless journey :) ).

The study of keris has been plagued by a serious lack of literature and historical records. In fact, many authors of the keris subject rely on 'informants' from this area (my home region - Southeast Asia - the proud home of the Keris and Kris!! :) ), who themselves learn about kerises from their elders or people around them. There is such a diversity of perceived meanings and names that it is impossible to say who is right or wrong. This phenomenon, like the myriad forms of kerises and krises, are a testament to the incredible diversity of this region. A feature or pamor of a keris can have one name in one village, and a different one in the next. And if you like, you could visit the Minang Kabau people in Central Sumatra. Just the number of keris hilt forms alone will bewilder anyone.

The keris has pre-Islamic origins, however, it is an interesting observation that it is mainly adopted in places where Islam took hold. Of course, we know about Bali and Lombok being Hinduistic and having the keris, but look at everywhere else - Java, Sumatra, Malay Peninsula, southern parts of Kalimantan, southern parts of Sulawesi, Moroland - its really kerises and krises being found in areas where the people are predominantly Muslim. Its not to say that kerises are Islamic in origin, but they are found where the Muslims are. And would a weapon adopted mostly in Muslim areas be called an Islamic weapon? I can't really say. It could be that the spread of the keris is not due to Islam, but because these areas happen to be on the major trade routes where both the keris and Religion could travel and reach. But I must admit this is my hypothesis.

And like what Rick and Vandoo has said -- the keris goes back a long time, and meanings and interpretations get changed, or even lost. One such example is the Jawa Demam hilt. It is representing a sick person, wearing a headdress (a 'tanjak'), squatting down, face lowered, with one arm wrapped around the body, holding a blanket over the other arm. We have seen examples that have carved 'eyes' at the tip of the head where the headdress is. The reason being that the headdress was re-interpreted as the nose, and therefore, the eyes must be beside it. Its just an example of people having lost the original understanding of what things meant.

You may be frustrated by the lack of straight answers, but this is the uncertainty you have to live with and deal with when studying and collecting the keris. Patience is very important. Good luck collecting, and keep learning. :)

No I am not ignoring you. I Read the first one and will read the second one later when I get the time. In the first article there is no real evidence to prove that wavy blades were not around at the same time. Straight keris blades have always been more common then wavy blades. It dose not surprise me that the accounts are only of straight blades, and not many accounts as you can see.
As I said such wavy blades did exist in Vedic India so when India warriors arrived in Indonesia they would have had such weapons, may not be common but dose not mean there were none. Indonesians have two blades, one for common every day use and pusaka. I dont see why it could not have been the same back then.
Yes I know that there are hypothesis but the truth is this information is lost so you either forget about the whole thing and dont try to even understand the symbolism or you do your best to work it out. Someone mentioned that I am mixing in my Western way of thinking; actually I have studied eastern philosophy for some time now and know that everything I have said fits with an Eastern way of thinking. As many have said the keris is many things to many people and they dont all agree.

Personally I think that the problem will be solved with a trip to the Museum archives. To find the common Indian ancestor of these blades. I will do so when I get the time.

Pusaka,

I think you are missing the point here. I'm not a student of keris (or kris), and consequently have no "dog in this fight". Perhaps I can offer some objective advice.

It does not appear to me that anyone is dismissing your thoughts out of hand. On the contrary, you are bringing some interesting and thought-provoking ideas to the table.

The problem I percieve arises from your desire for definitive answers. Quite simply, those are not available right now.

Disagreements are inevitable when discussing these weapons and that's fine: I feel it stimulates and enriches a discussion. You may find your position is better recieved if you avoid couching it in absolute statements of fact.

Best,
Andrew

Pusaka, i honestly wish you the best of luck with your search. I also believe that this search should continue, though IMO nothing concrete will ever come out of it. But theories are a good thing to as long as we continue to understand them as such and not try to present them as fact. Not to discourage you, but keep in mind that a guy like Alan Maisey has been studying keris for 50 yrs. He apprenticed and was trained by one of the last great kraton empus and has dedicated his life to the study and understanding of keris. So when his research is inconclusive it is not for lack of searching.
Just so you understand, i don't dismiss all the theories you have put forth here and also believe, like you, that there is a strong Vedic connection to be found in the symbolism of the keris. As has been pointed out, one of the biggest problems in researching this stuff is that there are very few records to draw from on the origins of the keris. The culture has evolved greatly over the centuries and has gained much new symbolism over the years. As i stated before, this new symbolism is not invalid. It applies to the current culture. I doubt, for instance, that much of what Boedhi Adhitya layed out on the symbolism of the keris actually would apply in Mojopahit times, though some of it probably passed through over the centuries. It is, however, probably right on for those using the keris today as a tool for spiritual growth, and as such, completely valid. Don't stop looking, thinking and connecting. You might not always be right, but that, i am afraid, is the nature of this study. :)

THANK YOU!
 

One of the greatest of human experiences is the search for truth and knowledge. Wisdom comes from in-depth knowledge, experience, and the ability to discern. The keris is shrouded in a thousand years of unrecorded change. From the first proto-keris that was traded, copied, modified, influenced by Hinduism, Islam, different kingdoms, regions and peoples… to the keris being made today, the only true constant for the keris… is change. The keris of today is richly immersed in culture and tradition that changes from location to location, shrouded in mysterious meaning and perhaps enhanced with mystical powers.

I am of the belief that in order to understand the keris and the origins of the keris, the secret is embedded with the people of the keris. To seek out examples of different keris from different times will still leave a mystery, a void… oh look, a new shape… why was that done, what does this mean? To know the people of the time, to know what they know… then will understanding be found. After all, isn’t that the purpose of this forum, to seek and share understanding?

I think this has been one of the most insightful threads, a small glimpse into the meaning of the ricikans. Thank you Antonio for starting this tread! And thank you Boedhi Adhitya for reminding us of the wisdom of our elders and to have the ears to listen.

btw Great additional historical info and photos of bas-reliefs in Dominique Buttin's site "Malay World Edged Weapons" http://old.blades.free.fr/

Short answers to a tall order-
Assuming the keris arrived in the Philippines and paralleled development according to traces of early written history from the 9th century as evidence of influence and connectedness to neighboring kingdoms,
the changes from keris to kris occurred after the Muslim conversion in the 15th century as early as the 17th century (note: one of the earliest accounts of the kris as a cut and thrust weapon was found in writings by Dampier)
the longer explanation of why and where the evolution from keris to kris occurred is in another thread,
some of the symbolic meanings were pre-Islamic,
depending on which Moro group one is researching,
the symbolism differs from bird, naga to elephant etc. (some detailed meanings noted in this thread by keris experts)
Moro royalty recorded relationships to kingdoms of 15th century Johore, Melaka, Sumatra and Brunei.
One can not state the kris is "essentially" a Muslim sword because the kris and keris in the Philippines were also used and made by non-Muslims (examples appear among the Visayans, Katipunan, etc.)
imho

One other thing which may suggest an Indian connection is that keris made from meteorite are highly prized and blades made from the same material appear in Tibet and records suggest the practice was the same in India. I don’t know of any other culture that prize blades made from meteorite. Both Tibet and Indonesia have had strong Indian influences which may or may not account for this. Take a look at this (see link)Tibetan phurba for example, note the nice price tag :eek:

http://www.tibetarts.com/sp10.html

Pusaka, your link to a commercial site is interesting, but does not really support your position. What "records" are you referring to? (Mind you: I'm genuinely interested, and not necessarily disagreeing with your theory.)

You've been down the meteorite path on this board before, and it did not end well.


Everyone please maintain civility lest this thread suffer similar fate.

This discussion has turn to a very interesting and maybe important direction for keris study, I feel.

I will to give my compliment to Mr. Pusaka for his original way to think about the keris and for his understanding to see the influence of Indian culture in the origin of the keris.

The origin of the keris has been debate for a long time by many people. There are many theories and beliefs, and maybe now we can never know for truly where from comes the keris. But if we will to give a theory about keris origin, and if we will that people maybe accept that the theory we have is a little bit true, we must also to give evidence and/or a logic reasons that our theory is worth to consider as maybe true. Just an idea without evidence and without logic reasons is for pleasant discussion to fill in time if we drink coffee.

In this Forum several years past was also a discussion about keris origin. In this discussion appears this remark:-

"Actually,what I set out to do when I commenced my investigations into this matter was to try to establish the existence of a keris like dagger in India prior to an appearance in Jawa.My research into archaic forms was thorough.I failed to establish this existence ,and as a consequence ,was left with only Prambanan II."

This remark made by Mr. Alan Maisey. He talking about his early research to discover keris origin.

For people who interest in ideas about keris origin maybe is a good idea to read this thread. Here is the link:-
http://www.vikingsword.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000607.html

About meteor in the keris blade.

This also something that many times people discussion. In Jawa we believe that keris have make with meteor since long ago. But this our belief, this has never been prove, except for the keris from Prambanan meteor and that only to begin about maybe 1800. For people with the interest in using meteor for making keris blade maybe a good idea to read the work of Mr. Bennet Bronson :- "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris", publish in "Historical Metallurgy" Vol.21.No.1, 1987.

Mr. Pusaka again I will to give you my compliment for your original way to think. I hope you do not lose your interest with the keris and that you will to continue your study with the serious and academic approach.

Outstanding post, Marto. Thank you for the sage words. :)

One could also suggest that Mr. Pusaka may benefit and further his overall knowledge from a thorough reading of Robert Elgood's fine book Hindu Arms and Ritual isbn# 90 5972 020 2 . :)

Marto, sensible and informative words as usual. Can you make any suggestions on where i might get a hold of Mr. Bronson"s "Terrestrial and meteoritic nickel in the Indonesian Keris". After a frustrating round of googling i came up with no usable results.

Thank you Marto Suwignyo for your kind words and yes I will read that document you suggest.

If we consider for a moment that the keris is from Vedic India then perhaps we should consider written Sanskrit and its relation to the keris. One of the shortest written prayers in Sanskrit is OM. OM is considered to be a vibration which fills the universe, the very essence of the creator. It is composed of 3 Sanskrit letters, A,U,M. The first character is A which consists of two characters joined together, the first looks like a 3 and the second looks like a n. Above the n character is a curved character which represents the letter U. Finally the last character looks like an O and represents the Sanskrit letter M. AUM, pronounced Om is a very important prayer in Vedic Indian times as it is at present. Examining the markings filed into the Keris I suddenly realised that it was Sanskrit writing. Looking at this particular Keris the prayer Om is repeated 4 times. One thing that should be realised is that the Sanskrit letter M has no dimension in space and so can be represented as a dot or a circle. It represents the inner universe while the other characters represent the outer universe. Looking at the picture you can see how the markings on the keris are in fact Sanskrit characters.
All my study’s so far point to a strong Vedic Indian influence. I hope people can now understand how ridiculous it is to say the keris is a Muslim creation.

I don't think anyone has said this here.

No they have not but I have met several that have. It is common among Silat practitioners. I think some schools even teach their students that the keris is a Muslim creation.

I don't think the sound of the universe can be credited to a mere mortal creation either but a reflection of its influence is plausible...hmm...oops...i mean...om...lolz.

Yes you are correct. That is the meaning of Om though, very similar to the Christian idea of logos, "In the beginning was the Word (sound,vibration), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1:1)


http://www.shaivam.org/mantra_pranava.htm

My point was I don't deny Hindu/Budhist influence, nor do I deny Islamic influence depending on specific keris or kris, its possible to hold multiple truths within a statement without having theories conflict, but general statements encompassing every keris/kris becomes questionable.

Pusaka, interesting thoughts on the probable presence of "OM" symbols at the greneng area etc of Keris. Similar thoughts have crossed my mind too but have been looking forward to guys who have "walked more miles" in keris deliberations to hopefully decode the meanings more entirely or if they mean something else.

How do the texts on 2,3,4 and 5 read?

I like the way you think Pusaka. This is a very interesting theory. Unfortunately i think you have overlooked a couple of things. Sanskrit has been written in a number of different scripts over history; Bramhi, Kharoshti, and currently modern Devanagari, which is different from classical Devanagari. Your AUM script is a modern one, which i believe is the one put forth by the American Sanskrit Institite. It is very different from the sanskrit script used at the time of the origins of the keris (at least 600-700 yrs. ago, perhaps more).
The area on the keris know as the Ron Dha (pronounced Dho) is meant to represent the Javanese (Kawi) letter Dha. Ergo it's name. The script for this letter has also changed over the centuries and the current Surakarta Dha is not the same as the ancient dha of centuries before. We can see this reflected in the Ron Dha of ancient keris as compared to more recent blades. So the Ron Dha has also changed over the years.
So what you have done is attempt to match a 20th century script against a 19th century symbol , which looks nothing like the script or the symbol from 500+ years ago.
Still we are left with the question of what does (did) the Dha in the Ron Dha represent. Though i am reluctant to definitively say, i think you might be on the right track that it refers to a Godly concept.
:)

Muslims realize the Vedic influence on Keris
 

Hi Pusaka,

Muslims (I am one) who tell you the keris is a Muslim creation are mistaken as the keris was in Jawa and Nusantara long before the Islam religion reached the archipelago. I don't think any school teaches that the keris is a Muslim creation. In Malaysia, the words masuk-Melayu which mean to enter (become) Malay have for a long time been synonimous to masuk-Islam (to enter Islam) and all Malay culture is seen as an expression of Islam, including the keris. This might be the source of confusion.

However the Muslim Saints who spread Islam in Nusantara did not totaly destroy the culture that was present there when they came, rather they preserved everything that could be sanctioned by Islam. So, for examples, the satiya widow burning was out but the keris as a symbolic weapon stayed: the wilah and the ganja which were originally the lingga and the yoni became the syahadat Tauhid and the syahadat Rasul. The keris luk 17 becomes representing the 17 raka'ats performed in sholat each day by the sallafi Muslims, and so on.

In the silat world the silat originating in Jawa, Madura or Bali (al keris making centres) don't use the keris as a weapon but in Malaysia it does. However, post-modern silat is seeing the keris being used as a weapon in West Java style fighting, taught by a Californian silat man who tries to tie his school with, amongst others, the traditional Cimande of Tarik Kolot. In the real Cimande the keris is never used as a weapon. Neither is the kujang, which is a specific Sundanese 'tosan-aji' used for farmers. However you can now learn Californian kujang jurus, which is 'most devastating' ;) .

Your post on the MAP forum about the relation to the script AUM and the janggut, the kembang kacang and greneng and ron dha nunut on the keris in the photo is interesting. Just remember that these ricikan are relatively new in kerisology and the first kerises were simple betok and brojols. The words ron dha nunut mean 'an added leaf of the letter dha'. Dha is the 12th character in the Jawa script hanacaraka. Several Muslim 'saints' who spread Islam in Jawa and Nusantara were also great keris designers, collectors and silat teachers hence the thinking that keris originated in Islam.

Warm salams to al,
KC