Ethnographic Arms & Armour

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-   -   Sword hilt for ID (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15935)

Jim McDougall 24th August 2012 10:27 PM

WOW! Mark, thats what I call a broadside!!!! and brilliantly written for someone well rested, let alone without sleep for 36 hours!
You have really well stated that we need to openly receive all opinions expressed here, and carefully review all supporting evidence in considering evaluations toward analysis of the weapon in discussion.

Here we have had some great input, including the material you presented from those collections. My inclinations were toward Spanish colonial as well, but were admittedly becoming tenuous as I tried to find explanations for the appearance of the birdhead on this hanger. The 'Arabic' suggestion for this hanger was as far as I can see eliminated at the outset.

The detail in this birdhead is indeed well done, and seems to faithfully represent the species intended, rather than the rather stylized forms often seen on native examples in Africa such as the example Fernando posted. The image of the hornbill against the hilt of this sword was of course resoundingly compelling, and these birds were keenly important in the cultures of West Africa.

As Gene has pointed out, and you have reminded us, these alternating quillons in form as well as finely featured terminals seem far from the brass hilts of those West African regions, as does the scalloped shellguard.
Despite rebuttal toward the notable high relief feathers, they do still seem Spanish colonial. I completely agree with the influence of eagleheads of North America on Spanish colonial arms, but the conundrum of the distinctly un-eagle look of the birdhead on such an extremely well executed hilt remains.

I think another factor which may being this closer together is the prevalent trade routes from Spains colonies in North Africa, which of course actively traded into West Africa. Many of the curious edged weapons we have thought to be North African have ended up being Spanish colonial, such as the 'Berber' sabres and the fingerstalled swords, both turning up identified from Brazil to Cuba. The Spanish Main which prevailed well through the 19th century included these African areas as well as the Spanish colonies in South, Central America and Mexico all the way to the Philippines in the west.
Just as the unique beak and appearance of the toucan might have had an influence on an eaglehead style hilt, so too could the hornbill.

Here I'll batten my hatches too, and hope for responses good or bad :)
Its all discussion and open thinking so gentlemen...fire at will !!! :)

Hotspur 24th August 2012 11:08 PM

Quote:

Yawn...OK, I seem to remember that this is a forum that is open to all opinions, not only one's own ( ). Whereas some Forums which will remain nameless choose to scorn any theories but those of the chosen, I feel that this .......
Which is very much the same type of cliquish behavior here Mark. :) Why drag any board through the mud?

What I have not offered is my opinion of either the Hartzler book nor The Flayderman/ Mowbray publication but instead have rebutted your thoughts of exacting details of plates you have mentioned in regard to the subject sword.

I was fairly clear in my initial post to this and agreed there may be a cause to think southern American colonial types. So, we are trotting the globe once again. :D

As to Chinese and Japanese art, I mention it in regard to how many ways a feather might be depicted, so certainly you will the same see stylings of feathers worldwide.

Cheers

GC

M ELEY 25th August 2012 02:32 AM

Hello, gentlemen. I'm up again...

Sorry for my earlier 'broadside' ( :o ). Lack of sleep and working much these days in a bad economy. I truly don't like to ruffle people's feathers (sorry for the bad pun), it's just that I wished to keep the thread going and with all possible considerations still open. Likewise, again, I cannot over-emphysize the importance of Mr hartzler's work (I have his Tomahawks book as well). My rather rambling point to all that was that even among experts and collectors (I am the latter, don't claim to be the former), you will still have differences in opinion. I also welcome criticism, was just defending my position, but PERHAPS a little too caustically. If I was rude, I apologize.
Please continue this discussion on this enigmatic sword.

Fernando, where are the pictures!!!! Just kidding! I know...you are working on it. I really like this sword, regardless of what its origin might end up being.

fernando 25th August 2012 12:59 PM

So, Gentlemen,
Back to a smooth path ... which could only be, with the fine members involved in this rather interesting discussion.
No Mark, according to recent feedback, i am afraid no further pictures wil be available. :shrug: .
... Which is pity, though :)


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