There's an interesting (not popular) theory about the history of maritime South East Asia first wave Ismalization that connected and dates back to Zheng He expedition, which also speculates that (if I remember correctly) most if not all of Wali Songo (incl. Gunung Jati) and even Raden Patah of Demak are Muslim Chinese/descent, hence the strong Chinese influence in pesisiran arts. I always thought that once the Javanese keris are similar to pesisiran keris in old European collection and the smaller distinct style comes later, do you think I'm at lost on this matter?

Yes Alan, i am aware of some of the history here. That was why i suggested that establishing honor in the case of the court history of Jawa is often difficult at best. ;)
And this history is, as you say, a pretty good read with lots and lots of blood. :eek: :)

Yes David, the question of "honour" is something else entirely.

A review of the "honour" of all leaders and politicians at all times and in all places will demonstrate that no matter where one should choose to look, "honour" (adherence to what is right as a conventional standard of conduct ---Oxford) is pretty thin on the ground.

In respect of Jawa in particular, Senopati was probably no worse than his predecessors, nor those who came after him.

The mighty Majapahit was the product of deceit and double-cross.
Islam destroyed Majapahit from within , son against father, and so it continues.

It is interesting to note that the recent succession of PBXIII of Surakarta was the product of one brother's supporters seizing control of the Karaton upon the passing of PBXII, and thus depriving the named heir of the throne.

"Honour"?

What is the meaning of the word?

Oxford can give us a definition, but in practice I feel that honour is seldom found.


In respect of the Islamisation of Jawa, close study of this will show that the penetration of Islam into Jawa flowed into society from two directions:- from the top down, and from the bottom up.

The princes of Majapahit were in control of trade in the ports along the north coast. As Muslim traders came to Jawa and established enclaves these Muslim traders formed a trade network, and the indigenous Javanese traders became more and more excluded. In order to ensure the continuing success of trade, these Majapahit princes converted one by one to Islam. This conversion culminated with the conversion to Islam of Brawijaya V of Majapahit, at the point of Raden Patah's sword, who was his own son, and had established Demak.

At this point in history, the Muslim influence was probably more weighted towards Gujerat, but Raden Patah himself seems to have had a Chinese mother, and it is probable that the very earliest contact of Jawa with Islam, did indeed come from Chinese traders.

At the other end of the social scale the dispossessed of Majapahit, and the landless rural workers were influenced to convert by gifts of land and support from Muslim traders who had established enclaves along the north coast. The traders would come with one trade wind, and would then wait a number of months for the wind to turn, so they could sail home again. Over time these Muslim traders established settlements, and through their wealth gained control over land. To populate this land they drew upon the dispossessed and the poor, who were given land to work in exchange for converting to Islam.

The conversion of Jawa to Islam cannot be separated from the expansion of trade.

Thank you again Alan for yet another enlightening interpretation of Jawanese history.

Yes, the definition of "honor" is varied depending from where you look at things. Since Ken Arok staged a coup d'etat against Kadiri, and continuous bloodshed of keris Mpu Gandring for the Singhasari throne, then Kadiri, then Majapahit right to Demak and Mataram. The list goes on and on till Diponegoro war.

But then, from what we have been told by history books, Majapahit and Demak (including Cirebon) shared one common value. That is acceptance towards outside Jawanese culture to flourish. In fact, many influential administrators during Majapahit and Demak were not Jawanese at all. Mataram till Amangkurat era however, whilst trying to exert its legitimacy, it had to create its own Jawanese identity to the point of creating a wider difference in terms of keris as compared to Cirebon, Sumatra and the rest of the archipelago. In these places, the keris culture has not changed much since Majapahit, or even since Singhasari era. This of course is only my personal observation.

Just to clarify a point Penangsang:- what I write on these historical topics is never my interpretation, it is simply the repetition of what can be found in any number of books written by professional historians.

On the other hand, what I may write about keris is sometimes what I have been taught, sometimes from my own observations or reasoning and research.

It is certainly true that Majapahit and the coastal political entities were not reluctant to use the skills of foreigners, being situated close to trade routes, foreigners were seemingly never in short supply in the coastal settlements.

Mataram , however, was an inland kingdom. The rulers of Mataram were very much pre-occupied with trying to demonstrate their legitimacy, but I feel that they also would not have been reluctant to employ skilled foreigners, had these people been available.

However, perhaps it is best not to try to link these matters to keris style. Mataram was preceded by Pajang, Pajang by Demak, and these are all moderately sized keris.

Some of the keris that are attributed to the western parts of Jawa are quite large, others are of normal size; Tuban is North Coast, some of its keris are enormous, but others are normal size. My own feeling is that the variation in size is related to firstly, easier availability of material in coastal locations than in the hinterland, and secondly size related to social standing of the owner. Then there is the esoteric factor, as reflected in numeric values.