Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Yup! She has been a busy girl, and most certainly as each successive owner discovers she is ' not quite what she seems' (memories of ex wives :) she is passed off to the next owner, and so on. Much like Gene's fine example, a truly classical form, or actually composite of them, but done in stately manner, actually not originally intended to deceive but to carry forward traditions of long ago. Most intriguing, actually exciting, of all is that the blade, which bears the poincon of Augusti Mathuri, which as I perceive from the excellent source Fernando suggested, is the name of the inspector c.1830-32 at Klingenthal. The script on Gene's rapier at the forte seems to read Solingen, a curious application if this was made at Klingenthal...the one in similar configuration on Dmitry's rapier appears illegible script...as noted the same poincon.
The obvious and compelling suggestion is indeed, probably the same blade source, and with the equitable styling of the hilts, probably same shop.
Clearly the earliest date 1830 based on the poincon, with the range of probable fabrication probably well into the 'Victorian' period and the 'romantic' movement which was noted as Historimus period in Germany contemporarily.
The fascination in anachronistic items of arms and armour in Europe and Victorian England seems to have been quite literally spurred by literature such as "Ivanhoe" by Sir Walter Scott, and study's and smoking parlors were carefully appointed with items of arms and especially armour of the Middle Ages. It seems that as this propensity continued, there appeared a demand for replica items as availability of actual items diminished and of course and accordingly costs rose.
There was a compelling drive to allude to the noble heritage of times long gone, and as Ernst Schmitt of Munich, one of the best known makers of classical replicas, is described from his work beginning in the 1870s, he did not intend to deceive but to as faithfully copy originals as possible. In many cases if not most, in comparison the two are often indiscernable unless displayed side by side.

The references to Victorian replicas and more disparaging the term 'wall hangers' or at worst, 'fakes' have been applied to many of these, however many of these, or in my opinion all, are venerable antiques in thier own right.

While establishing that the replicas of the Victorian period are of course well known and authentic in appearance, the course I feel important to follow here is to discover more on the likelihood of Gene's rapier actually being a serviceable weapon, and for that matter Dmitry's, now that it has been shown as a comparable and similar piece. Yes, yes I know.....Victor Hugo would be proud with such run on sentences...but we are talking about classics, yes?!!!:)

In reading on descriptions of replicas of Schmitt's, many of which have been displayed in the most reputable institutions, such as John Woodman Higgins museum in Worcester, Mass. and even the Royal Armouries. Actually the late Ewart Oakeshott even afforded a designation in his esteemed typology, XXI, considered 'modern' reproduction (meaning not of period it represents).
It is worthy of note that in handling one of these replica swords, they are often point heavy in some, and center of percussion and POB are not necessarily attainable.

Gene has described his rapier as well balanced, and quite comfortable in the hand, I think assessments not lightly placed by someone knowledeable in the art of fence. Its construction, while not necessarily in accord with actual pieces of the period (s) represented in the composite grouping of elements, is
well executed for its purpose, not only in possible wear or perhaps ceremonial use. I continue to submit that weapons of classical form known to have been produced well into later times were likely to have been used by civic or fraternal military groups in Europe, and likely fabricated in Klingenthal as well as Solingen. Many Solingen smiths indeed did emigrate to other countries, and it is well known that Alsace (location of Klingenthal) is culturally as much German as it is French.

In the Netherlands, or in the period we are discussing, the Dutch Republic(if I term correctly) from the Napoleonic period onwards had been deeply influenced by France, actually even annexed at one point. The developing of Dutch nationalism, much as throughout Europe, was becoming well established and much as elsewhere, the reflection of important traditions and heritage were keenly evident.

I for one, cannot resist the idea in viewing this interesting rapier, that it may reflect earlier heritage in the classic form elements, such as the very businesslike pierced disc shellguard recalling not only the cavalry swords of 17th century Europe in the general walloon form, but the bilobate rings of French duelling epee's in the 19th century. The classic form of the grip seen in blackened steel form hilts of 18th century court and smallswords (Aylward, 1945) and the closed C knuckleguard terminal (Norman, 1980) and even the rugged assemblage resembling the Industrial period of latter 18th c. England (Boulton's cut steel smallswords)....seem to imply a weapon intended for contemporary use, despite anachronistic form, and in the manner of the 19th century revivalism which may have preceded the larger Historismus movement.

Again, my thoughts of the day :) and I would like very much to hear other views on this in hopes this discussion will continue. Yes, indeed, these 'girls' (the sword is considered the 'queen of weapons') have been busy, and I think they are trying to tell us more.

All best regards,
Jim

Originally Posted by fernando

Just so says i, Gene ;) .
Look at the space left on the right side, if the inscription were Solingen.
Definitely Klingenthal, don't you agree?, matching with inspection mark and everything ... just like Valjhun's example.


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Originally Posted by Dmitry

The swords themselves were either wall-hangers or assembled for theatrical/film combat. Just my $.02

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Do you have any evidence at all to support that conclusion Dmitry?

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Gene! I think we're still pretty much on the same page. I for some reason still feel there was a more sound purpose for these weapons, and I think my pursuit in this direction suggests my apparant 'Quixote syndrome' :)
I suppose that my often near delusional romanticism concerning arms causes my disdain for the categoric dismissal of these as simply wallhangers or 'theatrical' pieces, while that of course is the easy assessment. In what I have learned about our societies in these 18th and 19th century times there were far more romantic delusions in popular culture than typically perceived historically. It seems that the penchant for secret societies, magical allusions, unusual religious and political pursuits in almost cult like character and of course organizations with more regimented character such as the Masons, and many fraternal and military organizations.

Often in post war circumstances, while demand for weapons waned, there were notable increases in such societal groupings, and particularly veterans of the military were powerfully represented in these many variant organizations. Political situations also brought national groups into effect who sought to preserve their country's heritage and past glories. The extremely colorful pageantry of today's reeenactment groups have distinct antecedents almost ironically in the periods which they anachronistically represent, in an almost telescopic analogy.

In studying the arms and armour of colonial New Spain, of course with the Conquistadors in the beginning, the images typically issued in literary or art treatments are actually far from how these forces were equipped. There were no 'issue' materials and most individuals were privately supplied. They used all manner of inexpensive surplus and composite items as could be obtained in thier home country, or in arriving supplies brought in. I believe thier 'countenance' :) would have been almost 'Quixotesque'. In studies of the armour used it has been discovered that types long obsolete in Europe had survived in these colonial regions far beyond thier antiquity.

The point is that in most cases, cultures and societies seek to preserve and celebrate thier ancestral heritage, and often this involves unusual or even seemingly 'eccentric' use or anachronistic representation of materials and fashion. In mant instances traditional court and dress weaponry, while appearing ostentatious or ineffective combatively, in surprisingly numerous cases was actually quite serviceable.

As mentioned, sword makers in peacetime often sought related venues to augment diminished demand including of course various tools and implements. However, they were not far removed from the skills and tooling to fashion the swords previously produced nor variations of earlier forms as required. If there were stores of surplus blades still held as orders for certain sword types ceased at end of hostilities or in cases or supercession, then these could certainly have been used for custom requests in varying volume.

There would be no need for trying to 'duplicate' marks, nor to remove them and the makers of these composite classical creations would have been actual swordmakers, not artisans fabricating decorative pieces.

In my opinion the concept of 'theatrical' pieces is often a bit 'overplayed' and as many as it seems have been given such assessment would presume there were virtual hordes of theatrical troupes moving about with huge stockpiles of arms and props. Actually these groups were much more a novelty than even imagined, thus the accordingly notable reception they received when they appeared.
With the idea of wallhangers, it seems there was more attention given in earlier times in replicas to armour than to swords. Actually the availability of 'old swords' was considerably well supplied and it would seem curious that anyone who had the somewhat unusual need to display an old sword would have had ample opportunity to acquire authentic old pieces almost at random. Arms collecting is more a modern phenomenon, though it was practiced in earlier times among certain nobility and gentry in degree. It was not until the latter 19th century that souveniers were gathered and displayed more nominally and these were typically of 'exotic' weapons, while as mentioned the demand for armour of illustrious heritage was more high end.

BTW, I agree the script would most likely be as Fernando suggested originally and well worked out by he and Gene...Klingenthal.

I guess this typical tirade of mine would be a nickel or so worth :) but my thoughts.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thanks Gene!
On the 'theatrical' front, most of what I was thinking of was the theatrical drama troupes in the 19th century or the occassional 'opera house' setting theaters in metropolitan areas.
When it comes to movies etc. the early days, silents and into the 30s it seems that there were plenty of authentic items lying around which ended up stockpiled into props warehouses in Hollywood and surrounding areas. I think quite a few authentic items were worn and used for close up shots and staging, however actual items used were suitably 'adjusted' for action shots. Some were still formidable in certain degree and some of the actors were indeed injured, but it seems usually blunt force type injuries.
Actually with the volume of actual items around, 'the Sheik' himself, Rudolf Valentino actually became a collector of antique swords himself and 'adopted' quite a few of them.
I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!:)

I recall in my early days back then fencing, and taking stage combat fencing. Ouch! You learned fairly quickly movements required as contact could be pretty convincing. ..but then I kept tripping over my cape!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Gene, I will definitely answer you, but in a short while. It's the Thanksgiving Day here in the old New England.
Tasty turkey to all, and peace!

Originally Posted by Atlantia

I can't understand your reasoning Dmitry. Was yours badly made or deliberately blunted? Did it strike you as a cheaply produced, lightweight, suitable for stage use?

I think I've already said why I feel that it differs from the usual pieces made in this period for pure decoration ('wall hangers') but I agree with that being a somewhat subjective view.
However, made for theatre film? No chance.
I collect film props :)

This sword is too well made, far too heavy and dangerous, too expensive and not suitable for the purpose.
I have seen 'real' swords modified (see below) for possible use in this context and it is understandable that they would be because they were plentiful and cheap 100 years+ ago.
But to use a new, so more expensive, relatively heavy sword with a fine dangerous point would be nigh-on suicidal.

Hell even dropping it could nail someones foot to the floor!

Actors are not professional swordsmen so you don't give them deadly weapons or they will likely kill each other.
Many early stage/film swords had sporting blades, often Epee (or even foil). Often these were remounted in fancy repro or real hilts. Sporting epee blades are of course edgeless and button ended.
Some prop/stage swords had aluminium blades, some have steel 'non blades' etc. Occasionally old swords are used, usually with replacement blades or at least some nod to safety modifications presumably ones used in the cheapest amateur productions (the point removed and blunted edge). depending on the context of use. You get the picture.
Nobody would order prop swords to be made like this.

Also there was no need for 'quality' as there were no high-def close-ups and the combat was simulated.
My sword is too 'well made' for a prop.
Such quality and care of construction is not needed for a prop.

Fencing with a real sword is extremely physically demanding. Hell, fencing with a sporting foil is extremely physically demanding and they weigh almost nothing.
My sword weighs in at 820g. Now despite its excellent balance thats a fair old weight to 'swashbuckle' with.
Try it with one of yours of similar weight.
It's far to heavy and dangerous for stage use.
Try it for a few minutes then imagine that the slightest mistake and you will impale someone on the fine sharp point of this rigid steel military blade.

Even if I was wrong about ALL of that (which I don't think I am), then as an expensive item bought for that purpose, it would have seen extensive use in stage combat, resulting in a frighteningly chewed edge.
It has a few very minor edge clicks only.

The 'wall hanger' theory is possible despite my ideas to the contrary.
But film/theatre? No chance.

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Hello, Gene.
The quality of construction really doesn't really carry much weight in this case. As far as the stage props go, there is a number of recent references about actors being injured/ran through/maimed/have eyes gouged out/etc. with stage props.
A simple internet search produced these, all on the first two pages of Google -

Actor Injured in Sword Fight Rehearsal; Hartford Stage Cancels "Antony and Cleopatra" Performance
http://blogs.courant.com/curtain/201...d-fight-r.html

Actor in Samurai Film Injured by Sword on Set
http://articles.latimes.com/1989-01-...1_samurai-film

Actor injury causes delay for Mad Cow's 'Rashomon'
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-theatre-delay

Actor Is Injured in Irish Production of ‘Hamlet’
http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/20...ion-of-hamlet/

Those are all very recent cases, but I'm sure there are many others in the long history of the thespian arts.
Like this one -
Debutante Injured By Sword When Actor Falls
http://news.google.com/newspapers?ni...g=2854,4748674

Basically I really don't see any other purpose to having a rapier in the mid to late 1800s, other than for theater or to hang on the wall. It's hard to imagine anyone actually wearing one in the streets as part of a dress.

Just my $.02, which I suggest you take, cause this is what I have left after buying a new house just now.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I recall back in the late 60s, early 70s growing up in Southern California some of the studios cleared out some of these warehouses, and some of the local collectors had dreams come true!:)

Originally Posted by Dmitry

I forget the name of that company, Hollywood House of Props or something like that; they auctioned off hundreds of swords, some newly-made, but many composites with antique hilts + new blades, and vice versa. Bannerman also sold composites assembled from new and old parts.

This company, Hollywood Prop Supply, sells film/stage props which have steel blades, not plastic.
http://www.hollywoodpropsupply.com/NewEdgedW.html

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Heavy military blade ...

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene


I would adventure that the term 'heavy' for this type of 'epée officier' blade is a bit generous :o
Not denying that these blades, although made in a period where their purpose wasn't any longer for combat, are rather strong and balanced ... as if they were made still for the real job.

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Gene! Sensational riposte!!!!! La!!!!! :)

All the best,
Jim

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Great discussion guys! and Dmitry thank you for the additional notes on the Hollywood outfit. Actually I think the instance I had heard of was one of the major studios, and one guy I knew had acquired a sabre from 'Bombay Cavalry' or one of the native units from the Raj. I was desperately collecting those type weapons and he used it for pure torture :) It was an absolutely authentic sabre with 'gothic style' hilt somewhat similar to Wilkinsons and Moles (Mole contracted for Wilkinson) types.
I know Bannerman from his castle in the Hudson actually fabricated many cast brass swords like briquets etc. I had not heard of these being used as props but more for collectors who were intrigued by the weapons display novelty becoming popular. It seems 'Bannerman' items, much like Schmitt replicas and theatrical/fraternal items have become unique collectibles in thier own right....another nostalgic phenomenon.

This 'phenomenon' is hardly peculiar to our own times, but was well known in earlier times as often self styled and loosely appointed figures in developing settlements sought to establish hereditary and traditional presence. For example, this was most apparant in the colonial frontier regions of New Spain, as I had mentioned earlier. I have seen many examples of rather flamboyant styled weapons which reflect the rapiers and swords of earlier times, often even coupled entirely incongruently, such as shallow dish guards with crossguard beneath, and other features and elements of mixed origin. These seem to have been fashioned for wear in ceremonial and social type events as dress weapons, and have a curious flair as unusual hybridizations which still had capacity to serve as weapons as required.

Regarding the 'heavier' blades, this was profoundly the case with the colonial cuphilt swords of New Spain, which had the revered hilts of the Spaniards using 'arming' dragoon type blades rather than the thin blades of the famed rapiers of generations before. As rapiers left civilian status thier style was still much favored but bolstered as well as being mounted with these arming sword blades with fashionable officers.

The use of such weapons is well known of course within established fraternal and militia type organizations which often had call for refurbished or newly fashioned hilt work and using old, perhaps even heirloom blades. I have known of such instances of various swords in this type or category used in the most honorary status of the Tylers sword in Masonic lodges, which demanded often a weapon with profound character as befitting its station.
While obviously outfitters provided ample supply of special designs and forms for officers and members of these organizations, the Tylers sword seems to have been preferred to have its own character, and to have varied widely in different lodges. In many cases, the blades at least in these swords, had indeed seen combat, or been intended for it.

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene :) ,
have you considered whether this is a 19th C dueling sword ;) .....sword schools (teaching traditional fencing ie rapier) and secretive (illegal) duelling were still popular early 19th -mid 19thC , in France but,especially in Germany ....

All the best mate
David