To put the above blade in context, the other blade types that can be seen in those ancient [Thai/Laotian/Cambodian] temples are below. The longer blades, as well as the captions of the daggers shown, can be found in this album.

Dr. Dizon was kind enough to see me the other day. Here's some of the things he mentioned to me:

[1] on the bent tip of the Visayan kris -- he said that it is a sign that the blade owner willed when he was alive that the blade will be buried with him; bending the tip was a gesture that the blade is not to be used anymore -- in effect, this is another sign to look for when one is assessing the authenticity of an alleged excavated blade; he said that this practice was also done in other regions

[given the practice of ancestral worship then, these desires of the old folks were surely followed to the letter; the success of harvests and business enterprises were believed then to be heavily dependent upon the benevolent intervention of the departed forefathers]

[2] the similarity of the Visayan kris with old Javanese kerises, etc., is not surprising because there were really no borders then amongst what is now Phils., Indo., & Malaysia

[3] he added that blacksmiths then were itinerant, and thus all the more that we should see similarity in designs

[4] as far as artifacts found in ship wrecks in the country are concerned, he said he has never seen a bladed weapon [except for the katanas in the San Diego wreck, 1600, near Batangas] -- his conclusion is that the bladed weapons of ancient Phils. were not imported; we made our own

[5] he has also never seen blade artifacts in the country that are wavy -- all are straight [thus we can tentatively conclude here that the wavy/naga blade is a relatively recent concept]

[6] rather than mining iron ore and then smelting them, it's always easier to recycle old iron or steel as less effort is required

[7] also, as steel gets recycled (and heated and pounded once more to get the slag [impurities] out), all the more that the quality of the steel gets better

[8] thus it was quite popular in the olden days to use "drift iron", i.e., metal coming from various sources and then recycled.

Again thanks Miguel for all the research. It seems to me that this dating from 10th-15th century is a bit wide. Have they been unable to refine this dating a bit given the artifacts found. I personally would find 10th C date unlikely, but could see 15th C date. :shrug:

"Long Live! Year of Siyaka 822, month of Waisaka, according to astronomy. The fourth day of the waning moon, Monday. On this occasion, Lady Angkatan, and her brother whose name is Buka, the children of the Honourable Namwaran, were awarded a document of complete pardon from the Commander in Chief of Tundun, represented by the Lord Minister of Pailah, Jayadewa.

By this order, through the scribe, the Honourable Namwaran has been forgiven of all and is released from his debts and arrears of 1 katî and 8 suwarna before the Honourable Lord Minister of Puliran, Ka Sumuran by the authority of the Lord Minister of Pailah.

Because of his faithful service as a subject of the Chief, the Honourable and widely renowned Lord Minister of Binwangan recognized all the living relatives of Namwaran who were claimed by the Chief of Dewata, represented by the Chief of Medang.

Yes, therefore the living descendants of the Honourable Namwaran are forgiven, indeed, of any and all debts of the Honourable Namwaran to the Chief of Dewata.

This, in any case, shall declare to whomever henceforth that on some future day should there be a man who claims that no release from the debt of the Honourable... "

that's the translation of the small document pictured below that was hammered on an 8" by 12" copper plate, written in Jawi. curiously, the language used is similar to a mixture of sanskrit, old javanese, old malay, and old tagalog. as a matter of fact, it mentioned a few towns that still exist to this day: Tundun (Tondo), Pailah (Paila), Puliran (Pulilan), and Binwangan, which are in Luzon, the town of Dewata in Mindanao which is not far from where those gold dagger handles pictured above were excavated, and Medang, which is possibly the town of Medan in Sumatra. the date mentioned in that document was later translated to april, 21, 900 A.D. this particular document was found in manila around 1989.

i thought i'd add this in the context of the artifacts posted above...


this is very interesting! seems as if the moro pandays of later years were still practicing this, hence we see a lot of cross-tribal blades...

Miguel Diaz, I cannot disagree with anything you have presented. I am of the opinion that the blade under discussion here is a Philippine blade.

However, is it a keris (or kris, or creese, or cris, or crist, or dhuwung or any of the other variations) as we would recognise a keris today?

Over the years there has been much discussion about exactly how we identify a keris.

Speaking only for myself, and setting to one side the obvious aberrations, I believe that for a blade to be considered a keris it must have gandhik and gonjo as a bare minimum.

For me, the blade under discussion is not a keris.

It has certain keris-like features, which could indicate some early experimentation with the keris form, but it lacks the essential features that would give it the spiritual characteristics of a keris, and since the keris is a spiritual object, these features are essential in any keris, especially an early one.

As far as I am concerned, this blade you have shown us is indisputably of Philippine origin.

David, thanks too. The use of associated imported ceramics (Chinese, Vietnamese, etc.) does give very accurate periodization. But as you said, sometimes the time period indicated can be very wide.

Thus I asked Dr. Dizon earlier on what else can be done. He said that there's a US company, Beta Analytic, which does non-destructive dating of steel ("AMS" is the process as I recall). Since recycled iron can't be dated accurately, AMS instead dates the embedded carbon in the steel.

The downside is that it costs Usd 700. If only say 70 of us here can chip in Usd 10 each ;) then the query on the date of the Visayan kris will be settled once and for all (i.e., as to which point within 10th to 15th C it belongs).

Or maybe I'll try requesting first the university to do it at their own cost, in aid of alleviating the miseries of krisophiles :D

Spunjer, this is an excellent context you've added to the picture, i.e., the Luzon-Java connection as far back as the 9th to 10th century AD. As you also mentioned, the proper paradigm is to view the region as closely-knit groups (and not as compartmentalized entities).

Alan, many thanks for your expert opinion! Your assessment surely counts a lot to us.

Thanks again to all. And if I (or anybody among us) can find related info, let's post it here please :)

I don't really have any expertise to add anything, but thanks for all the information and discussion! It really impresses me just how much culture and sophistication was in so many places before colonialism and imperialism... and the Philippines being such a cultural center... something I did not know, but am not surprised by. Learn something new everyday! :)

Hello Lorenz, count me in! :)

AMS is a destructive method though. A bit of metal will have to be sacrificed and since the carbon content of iron/steel is low, maximum accuracy may not be feasible. Still it would be really nice to narrow down the age of this unique piece!

BTW, does Dr. Dizon possibly have a list of carbon-dated Philippine pieces?

Regards,
Kai

Thanks too, Vinny. We are all here to learn, that's for sure :)

Thanks, Kai! I'll let everybody know later what will be the university's response, as to them footing the bill. You're right about AMS - it is a destructive method. Regarding the list of carbon-dated pieces, I'll ask Dr. Dizon when I'll have the chance to talk to him again.

I actually visited him in his office earlier today. He showed me a 1973 publication by Karl Hutterer, entitled An Archeological Picture of a Pre-Spanish Cebuano Community. Excerpts can be seen below. At least one of the two blades appear to have been the one photographed in the earlier posts above.

Anyway, Dr. Dizon said that these blades in Hutterer's paper were dated to be from the 14th century AD. And what's particularly interesting for me here is that the blade likewise has that profile where we see a 'waist' (i.e., a narrowing down of the blade's width near the hilt, and 'bulging' of the width near the point).

Still on the 'waisted' blade shape as found in Phil. archeological artifacts dating back from the 10th to 15th century, once again through the kindness of Dr. Bong Dizon we just got even more info to chew on.

The additional info comes from his book, Faces from Maitum. Maitum is located in Mindanao, and it's a very important archeological spot in Southeast Asia. For a brief background, please refer to this and to this.

Going straight to the point, once again we find a blade profile (per attached, and it's that of a spear, but which Dr. Dizon also said can be that of a dagger), that's waisted. And this time around, the blade is from A.D. 70 to 370 (or alternatively, from 5 B.C to A.D. 225).

Attached are the radiocarbon dating data (they are Greek to me, but perhaps some of us here in the forum can appreciate these stuff).

Would anybody have any idea why this ('waisted') blade shape persisted for at least about 1,500 years? What would be the advantages of such blade profile? It must have worked so well, such that it remained in vogue for such a very long time.

According to Rawson this blade shape goes back a very long time and is a "common heritage of the Indo-Aryan peoples".

It is likely that it entered use in the Philippines from an Indian source, either directly, or indirectly..

Its mechanics of use are that in a blade designed for use as a cut weapon , it gives forward weight --- the khukri effect, in a blade designed for thrust it allows a broad wound for more effective hemorrhage, and easier extraction from the wound.

It has been in use for so long because it is a very good design.

Thank you for the comments :)