More the merrier. Thanks for coming into the discussion :)

I've taken some proper measurements:
The larger axe head is 13.5cm/10cm, Weighing (approx) 380g minus the shaft.
The smaller axe head is 10.5cm/9.25cm weighing about the same: 380g.


Just as a page 2 reminder, here they are again:

Looking at the hammer head....2 things spring to mind. One.... efficient hammer 'faces' are very slightly domed, these are flat, secondly, there seems to be no marks/damage indicating use as a hammer.

I too believe that these are purely for balance. Below I have marked the axe heads with the centre of the shaft hole, the edge of the hammer and the back edge of the blade. The distance from the centre line to the hammer edge and the centre line to the back edge are almost identical (in ratio)for each axe. The measurements are approx. on the picture and are only to scale (so not actual dimensions), but I hope it shows better what I mean.The maker seems to have been very exacting in ensuring 'balance'. On a long shaft this would be important as imbalance would be more exagerated as the shaft is 'lengthened'.

When I first saw these axes, I immediately thought Indian. I do not think these are utilitarian. The angle of the blade (off-set, diagonal from the shaft) would not be ideal for cutting wood etc. (better to have the blade in-line with the haft) Some carpenter axes are off-set (left or right, from the centre line) but are still in-line to the shaft.

I believe the angle of the axe blade is to ensure a good cut when it is mount on a long shaft and used from horseback.....I believe that these are IMHO saddle axes.

Kind Regards David

These pictures might help. I know a vase of flowers is seen on many Persian and Turkic carpets but I still do not see the work on these axes as Turkish or further east.

It seems these axes may be explained by 'cultural movement'.

The Roma (Romani) were Hindu's that originated from North India and due to historic reasons migrated and diffused into Eastern Europe and beyond. A lot of Roma resided in Hungary ...and therefore had cultural roots in India. Perhaps the axe design is indeed Indian ...but with 'local' decoration .....

Regards David

Did you read the transcript of the accompanying passage to that picture Norman?

"CHATTER BOX
Published for the Proprietors by W. WELLS GARDNER, 10 Paternoster Row, London. Printed by John Strangeways,] [Castle Street, Leicester Square

No. 18. March 30, 1872. Weekly—One Halfpenny.

ROUMANIAN SMUGGLERS.

ROUMANIA, otherwise called Wallachia and Moldavia, a country watered by the Danube, and not far from the Black Sea, is inhabited by a wild and lawless set of people, who have proved themselves very difficult to rule, and who are constantly changing their government.

Smuggling in this land is by no means confined to the lower classes. Even the nobles are engaged in it. They smuggle goods chiefly to and from Austria, through the wild passes of the Carpathian Mountains. The horses they employ in this trade are small, wiry, and strong; as to the appearance of the men themselves, it is certainly picturesque, their costume being a mixture of that of several nations. The hat is Hungarian, generally gaily decorated; on their shoulder is an embroidered leather strap, which indicates that its owner has once served as a soldier in the Austrian armv; the linen shirt has a Wallachian cut. and the girdle round the waist, which is richly embroidered, betrays the same nationality. The foot-gear of the men in our illustration is not Wallachian, for they always wear sandals, and our cavalier with the hatchet in his hand wears high bpots. It is a strange article which these men are going to smuggle over into Austria, and which they carry in stone pitchers—it is leeches, which are abundant in Roumania, and upon which there is a heavy export duty. It is through one of the narrow, steep passes of the Carpathian .Mountains that these smugglers are passing, wishing of course to avoid the Custom-houses. They carry other things as well as leeches, probably a good stock of tobacco; and if they succeed m keeping their booty safe they will make a large profit. Seven villages in a lonely valley among the Carpathian Mountains are famous as the abode of smugglers, and to these places the government often send an armed band of Custom-house officers, who search every house, and generally carry off rich spoil, in spite of the clever way in which the smugglers hide their contraband goods."



Interestingly the site I found this transcript on also mentions a Description of the “mountaineers” in the Carpathians from 1844.


“The mountaineers here are called Huzzulen as in Bukovina. We found two of them sitting by the fire at the inn, leaning upon their hatchets. They told us that they were never without their hatchets, that they travelled with them, danced with them, and wore them as a part of their Sunday finery. They went to church with their hatchets, but did not take them into the church. They hung them upon wooden posts outside, from which each on coming out took down his own again.”

Excellent thinking!
I've been wracking my brain, as I'm sure I had an axe with an ofset angled cutting edge before. But I've had som many over the last 25+ years I can't remember which one it was!
Both of these two has that feature, although it's only slight on the other one.
Great detective work BTW :)
Best
Gene

Hi Tim,

Again, excellent detective work. The similarites are undeniable.
We must be close to finding another example now!

Best
Gene

Remember, Any 'lurker' who can help, please email me at:
gimmieitbaby@aol.com

'Romulus' a Romanian member on another forum has been discussing the possible connection with E.Europe.
He has concluded:
"About the Huzzulen ("Hutsuls" in english, "Huţuli" in romanian)... You could find some more informations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hutsuls
They are not the only mountaineers in the Romanian Carpathians, but they are a distinctive group with a blurred origin. They speak a dialect of the ukrainean language mixed with romanian influences. They live in two main areas in Romania : Bukowina (Bucovina in romanian) and in Upper Moldavia (mountain part of Moldavia, opposed to Lower Moldavia which is mainly a plain and a steppe. A large part of Lower Moldavia is now The Republic of Moldavia, former Soviet Republic of Moldavia) and in Ukraine too (Ukraine include a large part of Bukowina). Very interesting is the fact that one of the areas inhabited by Hutsuls consists of 7 villages (now 8, one of those villages is new) in a remote mountain valley, exactly like in the text you posted. They are renown for their specific breed of mountain horses.
About the picture you posted, you can see in the Hutsuls page on Wikipedia a picture with a horseman that has striking similarities with one of those in your picture but the Hutsuls don't wear their hair in braided tails like the one leading the smugglers group in your picture. This custom is specific to hungarians and transylvanian romanians in the mountain regions in south-western and western Transylvania.
About the fact that that smuggler served in Austrian army, there were three border regiments formed from romanians and one regiment formed with hutsuls in the austrian army. They were asigned especially to guard the mountain borders and they were expert skirmishers trained in guerrilla-like tactics, best training for a smuggler ...
About the axes, I don't really think that they are from Transylvania (they look more like indo-persian/turkish axes), I just pointed out that the decoration pattern is similar, but I don't exclude the posibility that they could be, because there was a huge turkish influence on weapons and armor used by trasnylvanians, moldavians and wallachians from late XV century to early XIX century."

I have already "lurked" but due to possible copyright have not "published" here. Perhaps a reference to the chapter on Axes in Elgoods Arms and Armour of Arabia might produce some comment......particularly the last section of that chapter, and the photo which appears there. I see that no one else has suggested an Arabian origin.
Stu

Nice investigative piece this thread :)

The bit about the Transylvanian smugglers is interesting.

Wish I could bring in some more points but I've got nothing except to restate the Ottoman influence.

A thought about these two axes... they look like they might have been produced by the same smith, perhaps in a series, hence their look like a "type". Romanian tools and weapons were far more fluid though. The Polish ciupaga is a much more rigid and formalized, but there aren't any real Romanian "types" for any kind of sword or tool that I know of, as the area was heavily influenced by the Ottomans, Slavs, Hungarians and Saxons. :shrug:

The original handles might have helped as wood carving can be very distinct.

Keep up the search :Thumbs up:
Emanuel

Hi Stu,
thats it, you've got to expand and elaborate on your theory now ;)

Best
Gene

I still generally feel that the shafts would have been long. Based on the shape and size of the axe.
I may just go ahead and make new ones anyway. Perhaps it'll help with the 'struggle' to pin their origin down!
Well, if I can find a bloody spokeshave (nowhere in the town I work in had one today)

Thanks for your help :)

Best
Gene

Thanks Gene,
All I can do is refer to Elgood Arms and Armour of Arabia,and the comments relating to the Hadhramaut axe of which a pic appears on page 36. He describes this axe as unique to Habban in the Wahidi Sultanate of western Hadhramaut. This axe, he says, has design features including cross hatching and dots.
Allowing for the fact that these were most likely locally cast, the shape therefore would also vary slightly. The pic in Elgood shows definate resemblance to the axes Gene has.
Stu

axes
 

Salaams, I thought I would start with a solid reference on Maces, axes and staff weapons therefor I refer you to Islamic Arms by Anthony North; page 40 - 45.

With reference to herders weapons only today I saw on the BBC an African herder in Sudan sitting astride his donkey with his cattle herd. He was holding an axe. The Mussandam axe carrried by Shihuh is a herder weapon useful as a walking stick or against snakes... and used in the human defence it is lethal in the strike to head or other targets. There is a bigger version which will have been the big brother for serious fighting.
The weapon appears to be originally a Persian early weapon from the Luristan area. The Shihuh are a fascinating tribe with no written language indeed they seem to be one of the lost tribal groupings though said to have Persian roots. Their language is unrelated to Arabic yet they are settled in the Mussandam region at the gateway to the Gulf astride Oman and the UAE. Tribal tectonic plate movement is a hugely complex issue and it is outside my scope to suppose a link with Indian, Hungarian or other European tributaries of tribal drift and axe usage or influence except to state that "as a crucible of civilisation Persian Luristan several thousand years ago may have had a hand in it all" ! :shrug:

Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

PS PHOTO ...SHIHUH WITH AXE

Namaste Ibrahiim ;)

I actually do have that book... somewhere..... in a box...... I think...... The V&A one right?
Does it have anything VERY close to mine? If it does, I'll go and search.

The axe in the picture with the seated chap holding it is suprisingly small. You say that they come in different sizes?
It would be interesting to ask a Shihuh user of these axes if they recognise mine!
I don't suppose that you know the gentleman in your picture and could put it to him?


I've found a picture of what appears to be an old Mussandam axe. But I can't find any pictures of the crescent headed Hadhramaut axe that Stuart referenced from Elgood (beyond the one in the aforementioned book).

The evolution of the axe is of course a story far older than recorded history.
When attempting to research my two crescent axes, the amount of references to Sagaris and pictures of ancient painted vases depicting Scythian warriors carrying them did make me smile.
But of course we are not looking so far back (even though I've added some pics of these axes below for fun).
In the great scheme of things, crescent shaped axes are widespread, but a minority.
The shape of the axes in your pictures is perhaps more familiar. The 'usual' shape for many recognised mutipurpose axes, like shepherds axes, tomahawks, even many weaponised axe forms, including european, Indian and Persian.
So I think we need to concentrate on the crescent shaped forms that are a 'match' for mine.


Do you have any further information, references or pictures relating to the Arabic Hadhramaut axe that Stu mentioned above?

Best
Gene

I'm not sure if this will help, but I've fashioned a shaft for one of the axes to show it in a more fitting style.
I've used old ash, but I don't like the feel of it. Too light!
Can anyone recommend a source for a more fitting wood to use?

Getting off the original subject??
 

Thanks Gene for reminding us of the ORIGINAL question, which was identification of your crescent shaped axes. The items refered to by Ibrahiim are clearly not of that shape, and if I am correct are called JERZ. The axe that I refered to in Elgoods book is nothing like these, and I attach a pic of the page from his book Arms and Armour of Arabia for clarification. Hopefully the text can also be read.

NOTE TO MODERATORS: If in your opinion the attachment breaches copyright, please delete it. I believe that if original reference is quoted then things are OK?

Excellent detective work Stu.

As you say, the traditional form of Jerz axes is very different from my axes.
The Hadhramaut axe pictured shows definate similarites. It would be interesting to see if we could find other examples to clarify if they all have the asymetric downward curve.
These are indeed an interesting type. I don't think I've ever come across an axe that has both the full crescent blade and the downward curve.

This has turned into a very interesting and enlightening, if somewhat frustrating search for me! And from the amount of views, I suspect that others are interested too, so come on you lurkers!! ;)

Best
Gene

Salaams, Point on axe shape absolutely understood. It is fascinating that an axe shape in the hadramaut is so similar to one from somewhere in India. By the way I see on the footnotes of Stu .. The reference from Elgood refers to the Al Ain Museum and Dr Waleed (al ain museum Curator) excavation of exes in the eastern UAE region~ I can see the al ain Museum from my office (almost) so I shall find out if these axes are from the Shihuh. It sounds like they are from that area at least.

Any further thoughts gentlemen?

So, finally found the right dark mahogany-esq (some exotic hardwood) timber with straight enough grain to make new handles.

Here are pictures of the initial results of the first finished handle. Some polishing still needed.
Handle length about 25 1/2", overall 28".
Style is Indian, following the examples shown on Runjeets excellent site. I have used these as I am still of the opinion that Indian is the most likey origin.
It swings well and feels great at this length.

One down, one to go.

NICE JOB GENE

Thanks mate :)
Makes a lot of difference having good wood to work with. The Ash was horribly soft, even though it was old.

OK, so here are the two re-hafted. Look and feel great, need some handling and waxing, but I'm pleased with the results.

not sure how i missed this thread, musta been while i was moving...

the eastern european area around romania/hungary/southern poland saw a small axe known as the fokos or ciupaga, used as protection against wolves. two and four legged. originally in steel, they were later outlawed if steel, so were then made in brass or bronze. they were of walking stick length and normally had an alpine point on the end. the shafts were carved artistically and painted. these were alluded to in the 'shepard's axe' reference posted earlier by atlantia (post 37).

these are my two: the silvery one is plated brass.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...nckew/axe2.jpg
(axe 1)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...nckew/axe1.jpg
(axe 2)

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...kos001_DCE.jpg
(axe 3)

this one has an engraved sheet brass guard attached over the sharpened edge.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...kos003_DCE.jpg
(axe 4)

even the brass ones were eventually out of fashion, and they were then supplied carved and painted entirely out of wood (see the shepard's axe ref), but in the same 'axe' shape. there has been a revival of steel fokos being made in hungary, tho i'm not sure how legal they are there.

http://www.berbekuczviktor.hu/bardok...agy/bard06.jpg
(axe 5) modern steel fokos, viktor berbekucz

for our arab friend, ibrahim, (salaam aliakum) here is my small arabian axe:

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/aec71209.jpg
(axe 6)

i've always been amazed at how small the axe head is. it's razor sharp by the way... and thanks for the additional information, ibrahim.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s...r/e7ae3e6e.jpg
(axe 7)

photo archive attached 'justincase'

I see the modern 'walking axes' occasionally, but as you rightly say, most are just carved axes shaped wood now. The arabian axe is an unusual find :)
The debate on my pair contines off-line, a recent popular conclusion is Ottoman Turkish.
:shrug:
Best
Gene

Axes ID
 

Have you considered that these axes might be Turcoman. I have found in the past that a weapon that defied identification, was eventually found to be most likely from that Central Asian people. Their location made them prone to influences from a wide number of places, India, Iran Russia and even China, and as infamous slavers they got everywhere.