mmm, you're right about the carving, it does lack a bit in finesse, or at least not the same as you see in Paiwan sheaths usually... perhaps others will speak up about this... but thanks for your help, I agree, it's probably touristy :shrug:

Is the blade laminated on a core ?
This is older work tourist or not and as such still has value .
I don't think their equal is being produced today .

Our man on the scene would know more about that aspect . :D

TAIWAN/FORMOSAN KNIVES
 

so YOU'RE the guy behind the Yang-Grevot collection?!
I've been pouring over those pictures for a long time...
those are some great examples of Aboriginal objects! ;)

I'm Taiwanese American and until I did some research... I didn't even know about the Wushe Rebellion, or the 228 Massacre, or the history of Dutch and Chinese colonization, Koxinga, and the Aborigines throughout it all... it was so enlightening for me to realize that the Kuo Ming Tang flag was one of massacre, assimilation, and oppressive regime... not exactly the crusade against communism that I had been led to believe. I didn't know that I may very well be part aborigine like many Hoklos. I'm now very interested in my heritage, historically, culturally... and of course in the martial arts and weaponry area as well. :D

Yuanzhumin, there was slight confusion over this knife which we have discussed before.

Any pictures of those knives that went for such high prices.

pictures and prices
 

I don't think that these knives were the best quality one could find. The context of the auction sale made high prices and these knives were absolutely overpaid. Once a year, ethnological auctions are set up in Paris with items from Africa and Oceania which come from prestigious and historical collections. In the same sale, there were many Azandé, Pendé, Kota, Teke, Lali knives that many members would enjoy! The sale was including pieces which could be considered of museum quality, but definitively not these knives!

Thank you, I take it these are the 5000 euros examples. They are nice, I would say they are museum quality but that does not means they are 5000 euros worth. To me museum quality is not about money value.

price
 

I don't think you should take these as a price example; they were largely overpaid as I explain the context of the auction. Museum quality might not even be that price specially for first half of the XXth century knives. Fortunately!

http://www.vimeo.com/934847

this video may interest some of you guys.. I know it interested me! :D

I know this forum is not as interested in contemporary ethnographic weaponry in comparison to antiques... but I found a vendor of many of the Copper-Gate village Fan Dao or Shan Dao (I've heard them called either one byt my relatives). The Hualien Taroko knife-makers, especially in Copper-Gate all seem to be relatives. I'm currently in Taiwan right now visiting family, but I'll be sure to stop by Hualien to satiate ethnographic/heritage weaponry interests.

I'm sure Yuanzhumin could tell you more about these.
He's native and I'm American-born. He's a specialist, and I'm an aficionado.
Plus I'm illiterate in Mandarin and can barely speak Taiwanese.

But for anyone who's interested, here's some websites:
>> http://www.001.com.tw/yahoo/TM-knife/yahoo.htm <<
http://www.001.com.tw/house/stoneland-house/2-2.htm
http://blog.taroko.gov.tw/myblog/jjy...RpdHlJRD0xMjY=
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/yan9436/a...v=751&next=640
http://www.libertytimes.com.tw/2008/...day-north1.htm
http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/jw!k87nOF.TREbqgMV2roAH/article?mid=3273
http://www.kpps.tyc.edu.tw/worker1/worker.htm
http://tour-hualien.hl.gov.tw/index....18&SceneId=467
http://librarywork.taiwanschoolnet.o...travel/t04.htm
http://www.ogsppg.com.tw/tour_data.asp?hidID=1977

Thanks
 

I am much chagrined to admit that I have missed this entire thread previously. Thanks Ian for posting my knife and thanks Yuanzhumin for identifying its origin. And thanks Tim for pointing out the fine Formosa Tribal website to which I have also taken the liberty of posting a link from the main EAA page. And thanks Kukukza28 for bringing this thread back up top.

I believe this is a modern made Atayal type blade. It was used for fighting (and headhunting), survival out in the wilderness, etc. It’s a good solid blade, legit ferrule/bolster(?), rattan handle, thick spine, gently curved blade, single bevel, open sheath, and has a good feeling. I got it from the Tung-men (Copper-gate) folks at Hua-lien. I also visited the Atayal museum at Wu-lai. It was very interesting. I was a bit surprised to find that many Yuan Zhu Min are pro-KMT as opposed to DPP - somewhat ironic... but let's leave politics aside. I learned quite a bit today. They had a good collection of blades and spears.
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9411/16108095.jpg
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/9930/89365485.jpg

Research Update:

Aside from the Aboriginal smiths at 銅門, Hualien I have also discovered that there are a few others in Taiwan. One is in 新店 (Shing-dian) and another in 桃園 大溪 (DaSi, Tao-yuan).... maybe one in San-xhia. The one is DaSi may be Hakka but seems to have been making Atayal blades for the tribesmen for some time now. Today they use spring steel and nails to make blades and arrowheads (and fishing spears). Seems like there's a very limited amount of hunting still going on... and that the blades are not illegal, but not entirely legal.. obviously if they were illegal, the mainly Chinese 開山刀 users would be screwed. The 開山刀 are usually hook-shaped, like bill-hooks, almost like a S.Indian aruvaal. They are the Chinese version of machetes. Some Japanese soqi are used too. It seems the aboriginal blades are of better quality and preferable for survival, forestry, and mountaineering work. That is not to say all the Chinese hook-machetes are terrible, in fact there are some good quality ones out there.

The Atayal's machete-sword is called a laraw (lah-rao, rhymes with cow). Their smaller utility knives are called puli (boo-LEE).

Hualian's smiths apparently make blades for all the tribes and tourists as well, but the blade-makers I found out about above seem to only make for Atayal. I'll see if I can gather more information on other groups' blades.

I know these aren't antiques that I am digging up, but the state of today's aboriginal cultures of Taiwan and their handicrafts, including weaponry, still lives on, though barely in some cases. However, there are still some quality blades being made and used, though not for headhunting. There doesn't seem to be much interest but I'll keep posting up my research for those who are. :shrug:

Thanks for great info Kukulza. Rest assured there is interest in this culture and its blades. I just think few of us are in the position to add anything meaningful.

Emanuel

Yes great interest. I might add that Nicolas is now the owner of the example I had.

Thanks for the encouragement. Like I said, I'll post more when I've found out more...


Lucky Nicholas, authentic Taiwanese aboriginal pieces are rare, I hope he treasures it forever... if not he should hit me up with a message :D hahaha, but I have no doubt he will

More on modern-made Taiwanese Aborigine (原住民) blades... I am surprised at how helpful some folks are... when the person contacting them in far away and may never meet them face to face. I am trying to figure out the general location of the few aboriginal or sino-aboriginal blade-makers left.... so far I am having more success with the Atayal, perhaps because I am more interested in their blades or perhaps because their blade making and usage is more intact... not sure.

If Yuanzhumin (anglicized for 原住民) was around more I'm sure he'd be way more helpful!
EDIT: Yuanzhumin if you're reading this stuff, please feel free to chime in.

I take no credit for these photos, they belong to their owners, posted on flickr

Yugan Dali's photos on flickr. These are puli (bulee) and laraw (la-row).
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1218/...bfec48fb10.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3147/...0dd412283b.jpg

fm4715/魯獅's photo on flickr. I do not recognize who makes these Laraw.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2061/...d0892684e2.jpg

Kimisibal's photo on flickr... looks to be from Hualien but I am not sure.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3634/...582f3a2d77.jpg

In addition to those above, I am trying to trace the origins of these, which may be tourist blades:shrug: :

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/3557/76591105.jpg
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/7755/24101139.jpg

These seem to be the 銅門, Hualien made Aboriginal blades mixed with some sickle-like 開山刀 in the mix. It would seem the Aboriginal blades give a good account of themselves as "machetes". I myself have tested mine out - not bad! Most Han Taiwanese use 開山刀 for brush clearing like a machete. It is also commonly used in Guangdong and Fujian where the handcrafts of making such tools is also dying... ironically while the villagers in both areas prefer the well-made, quality tools of old master craftsmen... very few young apprentices are to be found.
http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8084/50742419.jpg

On the side... Yugan Dali's photo on flickr showing one way to wear a sickle-開山刀
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1347/...7772729baf.jpg

For those interested...

this Taiwanese aboriginal blade looks like a single butterfly sword's blade with a typical aboriginal metal socket handle. It is sheathed in the Aboriginal way. I want to say it is from one of the western plains groups, and had a lot of Chinese influence... but I am no expert.

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6105/41515.jpg



One of freebooter's butterfly swords for reference:
[from freebooter's Swords & Antiques Gallery]
http://www.swordsantiqueweapons.com/images/s009a.jpg



:)

Interesting.
 

A very interesting similarity. The tribal piece you present almosts looks as though it could have once been a pole arm blade with the metal sleeve shortened as the polearms of this type were common amongst the Tiger troops of China and I am sure others too. There have been a number of historical images showing this.

Best

Gav.

That is a possibility. I like the thought

I am not sure which is more likely...
[1] Shortened Chinese polearm blade
[2] Aboriginal/Chinese smith copying Southern Chinese blade design

More research will have to be done on the blade style and the sheath, but it is hard to say whether the Aborigines forged certain style blades for themselves, or had others forge certain style blades for them... because all of the tribal groups have relatively distinct blades. The Atayal in the north has characteristically curved blades. The Amis and Paiwan in the Southeast have straight blades. The others have blades everywhere in between. Tribes from the western plains, now mainly mixed into the Hoklo and Hakka population, had the most Chinese influence. Their blades were often re-used Chinese blades, or in that style.

The Asian Ethnographic Collection of the Division of Anthropology in the American Museum of Natural History says little about the aforementioned blade that could be helpful.

Here's one from the Yang Grevot Collection. While Ping Pu artifacts are rare, they all seem to know certain similarities to Chinese blades.

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/4130/sggrfedw.jpg

Notice this one looks almost exactly like a Hu-dieh-dao blade and have a two-sided sheath, not an open-faced one as is popular with almost all Taiwanese aborigines. The person who wrote the caption for it said:

"Closely resembling Atayal and Amis knives in form, this knife also has clear Chinese characteristics and was fashioned in a transitional style typical of the Pingpu, the Austronesian people from the island's plains who were influenced by early Chinese immigrants. With time, the Pingpu were assimilated into the Taiwanese population, in contrast to the aboriginal peoples of the highlands, who continue to form a distinct indigenous group to this day."

While I can see the similarity to Amis knives, Atayal knives (pre-Japanese contact) have characteristic curve to them.




Here's something else. As a Taiwanese American knife aficionado, I've been browsing Taiwanese cutlery sites. Here's one with 2 blades that might be worth considering. If you link on the link, go to the third button down and click it, these two blades should show up further down the page.
http://sword.tacomall.com.tw/product/dao/sw-08.jpghttp://sword.tacomall.com.tw/product/dao/sw-07.jpg
They are the: "江南板刀" and the "江南刁刀"
Means something like "River-South-Plank-Knife" and "River-South-Wicked-Knife"

Notice how similar their handles are to the PingPu (plains) knife of the Yang-Grevot collection. Notice how the blade style is related to both the Museum and the Collection's two knives above... and the coastal regiosn south of the "river" (Yangtze) is Zheijiang, Fujian, and Guangdong. Precisely our target demographic when talking about Chinese immigration to Taiwan in this time period.

Their descriptions read something like this...
(my Chinese isn't great so I am using what I know + online translators)

[1]This knife style forms a straight line with the hilt and back of the blade (hence plank). It is mainly used the in the area south of the Yangtze River. In ancient times, Tangshan people relocated to reclaim wasteland Taiwan. This is a convenient blade for a long journey because it can do work and be fought with. The knife is made according to its use/goal. In fables, the righteous thief Liao Tianding (Taiwanese Robin Hood) uses a "short plank" like this for self defense. This knife has brass button decoration which improves grip and artistry. The scabbard is made after a careful design and doesn't loosen.

[2] It's with the broadsword of the region south of the Yangtze River that the short-sword is used with especially. It's hilt and back attachment become the ??? after inserting the object ??? therefore called tricky/wicked knife. About 1"3' long blade, short sword with(?) 22 types. For mountain climbing commoners originally. Chops bamboo ???, point of force appropriate, can puncture, chop... ??? Preferred by some ancient assassins and called the "in-the-sleeve Knife".

If only to make it more interesting and more factors... now there is this as a possible influence. Not only could this have been a shortened polearm or a locally made blade design... it could also come from or be heavily influenced by the South-River-Knife style...

:eek: :shrug: :D

Hudiedao
 

Here is a better example of blade profile to compare to against the Hudiedao.

Gav

Thought I'd ressurect and add to this old comprehensive thread. Comments welcome.
================================================== ===

Recently acquired a modern traditionally made Formosan (Taiwanese) Lalaw.
71 cm. overall in scabbard.
41 cm. blade, 5.5 cm. at widest. Distal tapered spine 6 mm. at grip,3 mm. just behind the point.

Sharp, convex grind. Hammered black forge finish. Through tang peened over pommel cap.
14 cm. grip
460 grams ex. scabbard.
Scabbard & grip is stained/varnished (not opaque painted), reddish, with black stained decorations on scabbard, wood grain shows thru.
Red Bronze (Samrit?) fittings & staples. Braided/spliced (cotton?) baldric.


See also : Preliminary Classification of Taiwanese knives & swords from August 2020.

Thanks for sharing my article!
I believe the Lalaw you have there was made by Cas Hanwei, modeled after the Seediq slmadac that was used for the movie Seediq Bale:
https://www.caesars.com.sg/fixed-bla...al-sword-.html

As far as I’m aware, Northern indigenous Taiwanese Knives tended to have a single beveled chisel grind, and the hand hammered appearance is more of a modern stylistic choice. The tang is usually bent over rather than peened if it is exposed at all. The fittings should be tied to the holes on the side of the scabbard rather than the top.
The decorated scabbard is rare but not unseen in northern blades.

Hopefully this was helpful

An antique of that style recently sold at auction (Tully's, described as a Moro barong). I have seen and admired new Atayal blades like yours but had not, until this auction, seen what it was modeled after - with the distinct handle shape and red/black color scheme and designs. I'm still gutted that someone else spotted it and outbid me.

I saw that one too, went for more money than i could afford.

I saw that lot also and actually placed a bid. I was outbid nearly fourfold by the winner. I think one of the other items, what may have been a gold decorated khoummya with rhino hilt, drew the high bid.

I believe the Taiwan knife is from one of the Pingpu clans and dated to the 19th C. A rare and very nice transitional example to the more sinocized versions of the late 19th and 20th C. BTW, I think kronckew's post above is also in the Pingpu style of the 19th C. For more information, search for "Pingpu knife Taiwan."

Win some/lose some. :( ;)

I searched, found a few examples of pingpu knives with red & decorated scabbards similar to my Hanwei one, also noted that not all were chisel ground, tho the convex edge and hammer finish are more modern interpretations. I might move the baldric to the 4 holes in the back at some point. I just acquired a set of 'south american' knives, ;), on their way here. They are touristy and were very cheap :D, but thought they might fit next to the pingu/hanwei lalaw one. Better'n a poke in the eye with a sharp stick tho.

Was more curious about the clip point knife. the sword one looks like the blade might need reseating. I gather these were postwar for US troops on leave. will be interesting to see if the blades are any good. Still, while not exactly common here, I saw a duplicate of the sword at a different auction. That guy on the grips with the spiky hat gets around a bit.

Items above arrived today. Clip point knife is a POS - Piece of sh... - er, junk. 1mm steel blade.not a hint of sharpening or bevel. will go in the oops box in the outside store room later.

Sword has an 18in. 4mm thick, 1.25 in. wide. Good part is it's flat left side, chisel grind on the right, and sort of sharp. been rode hard and put away wet as my BIL woulda said on his cattle ranch.blade tang had moved out of the handle a bit, I was gonna pull it out all the way & get some sticky stuff in the hole, gave it a tap on the table with the pommel, to see it it'd move in further, it went in all the way and I can't pull it out, so I'll leave well enough alone. bolster is tight again up against the tang shoulders. Cleaned loose red rust off the flat side of the blade & a few spots on the other. Simply carved Scabbard is coloured mahogany colour & is carved and closed both sides has a small loop of brownish cord and a two holed toggle, for a belt suspension... can't afford (or find) a real antique one yet, so it'll do for now.