Alan,

I have never seen a Malay sundang in sandang walikat sheath without the horn strip. Are you able to provide pictures of one such specimen? (More examples would of course be better).

Thanks.

Oh forgetful me!!! How could I forget the recent sundang that went on ebay that was helpfully 'deconstructed' by age. :)

I was interested in this piece until irrational bidding took over and I gave up.

BluErf, there is a remark about this at the end of Alan's post, under EDIT. As I understand it, there was a confusion between "normal" sheaths and Sandang Walikat.

Regarding at least the keris of David, I remember what Alan has said in a thread some time ago (from my memory): it is possible, that a keris, preserved under ideal conditions, outside of SE Asia, would look like made in recent past.

Malay sundangs are pretty rare as a category (about as rare as cotengs, I reckon). I think I have probably only seen around a dozen or so. I think more than half are in sandang walikat sheaths.

Wow, we have gathered 8 examples of Malay sundangs in 1 thread! That's quite a feat! :)

Thanks Rasdan and Kai Wee.

Kai Wee, to answer your question on whether I can supply a photo of a sundang that is in sandang walikat (SW) scabbard without the horn strip.

No, I cannot, as I do not own one. I know of several in somebody else's collection, but this gentleman has always refused permission to photograph anything in his collection --- I hate to think what the response might be if I asked for permission to publish a photo on the internet.

However, there is a photo of a sundang together with its SW scabbard in Gardner.This scabbard appears not to have the horn strip.

But further discussion on this matter is probably unnecessary, as the exploded photo has answered my question completely, and the answer is that the horn strip is not a horn strip, it is a horn collar, and using that technique of jointing as shown in post 42, fixing with fish glue would be possible.

So I believe that we have established conclusively that the use of a horn collar on Malay sandang walikat scabbards used for sundang was possible prior to the advent of modern adhesives.

Of course, it would be very nice to get confirmation in some form that this collar was actually used prior to WWII.

We've diverged quite considerably from the original direction of enquiry here, but this direction we are headed in is of some interest, so I'm going to continue down this track for a little while, not to offer answers , but to raise questions that people who are closer to, and have greater interest in sundangs than I do, might like to pursue.

Stone and Gardner are the two earliest writers I can think of who mention Malay sundang (sondang). Clifford also mentions sundang, but I don't think I've got a copy of the paper concerned, and I am uncertain if there are illustrations.

Both Stone and Gardner seem not to differentiate between the sundang and the Moro keris. Speaking for myself, and not being expert in this field, I can see very little difference between the two, yes, some differences in dress, but essentially the same blade.

In Stone a page of "Moro keris" is shown. I cannot guess how many, if any, are Malay --- maybe none, as Stone gives specific locations of origin, but many of the weapons illustrated do not have scabbards.

In Gardner there is one sundang illustrated, and that has a sandang walikat scabbard that appears not to have the horn collar.

I do have one other reference that might be useful. I have quite a lot of UK dealers catalogues that cover the period 1955 to about 1990. In these catalogues there are a number of sundang/Moro keris shown. The vast bulk of these weapons are without scabbards. Where a scabbard is present it is not a SW.

This absence of scabbards for sundang/Moro keris seems to bear out something I read somewhere --- people with an interest in this field can possibly advise of the source. It went something like this:- "Moro keris are mostly found without the scabbard because the scabbards were discarded during combat".

Possibly a similar thing occurred with the Malay sundang?

Possibly most of, if not all scabbards that we currently see on Moro keris and sundangs are relatively recent replacements? Say, within the last 80 to 100 years?

Now I want to return to the core question:-

is the scabbard for the keris shown in post #1 of this thread original to the blade, or is it an old scabbard that has been adapted for use with a more recent blade?

Based upon what I can see in the photographs, and upon what I have seen in physical examples, it was my opinion that the replacement buntut, and the horn strip at the mouth of this scabbard were certain indicators that this was a scabbard that had been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.

Dave Henkel has stated that he has never seen a keris of normal size fitted with this type of scabbard.

Nobody else has come forward and advised of the existence of any other examples of this type of scabbard fitted to a normal size keris.

This keris in this SW scabbard is clearly an anomaly.

In my experience, where we find a keris that is a "one off" , or that deviates from the norm in any way, that keris needs to be looked at with the deepest suspicion. We should never forget that keris of all types come from very traditional, very hierarchically structured societies. In these societies people avoid variation from the norm.

Based upon the foregoing, I believe that at this point, the weight of evidence is heavily in favour of the scabbard shown post #1 of this thread being a scabbard that has been altered to accept a blade other than the one for which it was made.


I would be prepared to retreat from this opinion if we could establish that the horn "strip" shown in the photograph is not a horn strip, but in fact is a horn collar, and the mouth of the scabbard is an adequate fit to the blade, further, that the scabbard has not been shortened and this shortening covered with a buntut.

Regretably we are working from photographs, and the evidence that we need to establish the authenticity of this scabbard cannot be obtained --- unless this keris fell into the hands of one of our members, in which case we can have a complete and detailed examination carried out, and I might be able to reverse my opinion.

sundang
 

Hello Alan,

A lot of Malay keris sundang come with what seems to be a genuine Moro blade. Obviously, there was a lot of trade going on. Some of these could also have been crafted in centers with strong Moro influence like Brunei.

Some Malay sundang come with locally forged blades though since they appear to be outside the traditions of any Moro group. (Stylistically, Moro kris seem to be somewhat less cohesive than most keris. I'd posit that "pakem" were less of an issue than at Indonesian courts.)


I'll try to have a look later.


Probably left behind before an organized battle rather than discarded but obviously the colonial soldiers mainly cared for the swords and often weren't in a position to search for any missing bits at leisure, anyway. There also appear to be simple makeshift scabbards for taking a kris on a campaign while leaving the valuable original scabbard at home.


There are quite a few antique scabbards for both Moro and Malay sundang around but obviously, as in other keris, later replacements are common. There is a larger proportion of sundang than regular keris coming without scabbards and most of this can probably be attributed to the huge amount of battlefield pickups during the early US colonial period (throw in some European colonial trophies, too).

OTOH, a noticeable percentage of pieces in foreign collections does come from later trade (and raids) and includes a genuine scabbard. Since many but status pieces come with fairly undecorated scabbards, we also have to account for later losses due to displays of "naked" swords.

Regards,
Kai

A peninsular blade with similar kind of topographic pamor is depicted in "Den Indonesiske kris" by Karsten Sejr Jensen, on page 181 (and on page 201 a sundang in sandang walikat sheath with horn buntut and sheath mouth).

(I think it is for certain now, blades with topographic pamor are occuring not only in Madura.)

1)--- blade is very recent Madura

2)--- hilt is recent Madura production

This appears to be a recent, high class and deliberate attempt to decieve.[/QUOTE]

Hi Alan, can you please advise how did you define the blade is recent Madura ? is that way to say the blade is newly made or it was made in Madura (place)? cause I know some mpu also made kerisses in Jogjakarta and others..

Yes, so do I.

This blade is not Central Javanese work.

I don't think I want to comment further in this matter.

I have stated my opinion.

It is of no moment to me if my opinion is accepted or not, and I am unable to alter my opinion in the physical absence of the keris itself.

I've already given a lot of my time to this thread, and the thread as it has developed has diverged into matters that really do not interest me in even the slightest degree.

Yup... this one is certainly northern peninsula, but your earlier example was recent though no body can really be sure its so called maduran's origin....

Oncemore; if the blade is in good state of preservation, it is hardly possible to see the age, and this is the case regarding some keris from older collections in Europe and USA.

I think, everybody here is able to have and write down he's opinion. This is a discussion forum. Very probably the most experienced person in case of keris from Peninsula, who has give an opinion here, is DAHenkel. His oppinion was, the kris is from 40 or 50-ties, a Peninsula blade (post #7).

Well, the keris finally arrived. Both hilt and buntut have a fine patina, which stays absolutely hidden if you try to pfotograph it. The wood of the sheath is old, has a beautiful grain, old is also the horn collar. In my oppinion, when I see this keris in my hand, there are no new or recent parts in this ensemble.

The photographs from the seller are very good indeed, so only the missing view - the mouth of the sheath.

Thank you all very much.

See I correct that the horn collar is set in up of the sheat and enfolded the wood? So the blade sitting in the wood?

Yes, it's wright.

In my post #6 I said this:-

As always when looking at pics, I could be wrong --- but overall I don't think I am.


These most recent images posted by Gustav provide an entirely different perspective.

What I have said in previous posts is incorrect.

I was wrong.

I think this underlines what I have frequently said, that it is very difficult to appraise a keris from photographs, especially photographs on a computer screen.

It also underlines just how important it is to see the top of the ganja.

I no longer believe that this keris was made in Madura, but there are most definitely elements of Madura craftsmanship inherrent in this blade. How they got there is anybody's guess.