I believe the Empu Gandring and Ken Arok legend was picked from "Serat Pararaton" (= Para Ratu, Cronicle of the Kings), which was written nearly 400 years after the actual incident happened ( Ken Arok / Singasari reign). It is, certainly, hard to verify, even at the time when the book was written. Some experts even interpret this "Empu Gandring" story as a symbolic languages (or gurindam, as Mr. Purwacarita define) depicting the "magnificent" struggle for power in Singasari between the families. But IF only this legend was TRUE, those who knew the legend would understood that the keris had not been finished by Mpu Gandring, which then caused Ken Arok, who've been waiting for a long time, to became very angry, grabbed the keris, and killed the empu himself. It was, actually, the blessing ceremony which had not been done. Mpu Gandring himself had warn Arok that the keris was fiery and full of anger when he came to took the keris. The curse which was spelled by Gandring while he was dying, would be the "blessing ceremony" then.
Making keris is an art, technically and spiritually, and can not being done in rush and anxious circumstance. The fact that Ken Arok was a well-known leader of robbers, would also influenced the "spiritual circumstance" of Mpu Gandring. Imagine this : How would you fell if Osama bin Laden commisioned a keris to you, if you an empu ? Your feeling or "spiritual circumstance" then would changed considerably and being easily absorbed to the keris you make, and nothing you can do about it. You have at least two options then : Stop working, which would only make the keris-making process delayed while the feeling still "haunt" you. Not to mention Mr "O" who may get angry for waiting too long. Or refuse the commision, which may cause Mr "O" send you a suicide bomber :eek: Same situation might also apply to Gandring, and thus, it is easily understood then, why his keris so fiery and full of anger, even before Gandring cursed it.

I do agree with Mr. Purwacarita, it is almost impossible for empu, especially Master Empu, to "cast" bad intention in his keris. It was a "mishap" that made a bad keris. This might be technically or spiritually when the empu lost his concentration. Any disturbances which make the master empu angry, in doubt, anxious, annoyed, sad or any "bad feeling" would easily seep into the keris. Just like a composer when he compose a song. While a composer use a song as a media to express his idea, feeling, or wishes and a painter use the brush's strokes and colors, an empu choose the iron, pamor and others on a keris to serve this purpose. You may choose a song as "your song", or a painting which "describe" your feeling. You may also choose a keris to reflect your wishes, 'ideal character/personality' you wish to achive, your ideal 'way of life' or ambitions you wish to achieve(= 'Da Flag'). Then, the keris may serves as a 'remembrance', as every time you see your keris, you will remember of your wishes and gives you a "power/motivation" to achive it.(=Da Nationalism). Selling this kind of keris then would be felt very humiliating to the owners. Sometimes, on a very good pusaka, "the power" is so intense, that any "keris-illiterate" who see it would also overwhelmed by this kind of "unseen/spoken power". Just like any listener would be overwhelmed by a good song likes, said, Bohemian Rhapsody. This explanation, however, only explain the esoteric things from exoteric point of view. (perhaps an "exo-esoteric" explanation :D ) The real esoteric would also involve the empu's prayer/blessing.

Then, it is very easy to understand that the keris for a soldier would not match the wishes of a farmer. A merchant should not wear a keris intended for a king. Why ? Because his costumers want to be king also. Two king in one shop would only ended up in a war :D Mahar-ed or bought, it will not make a lot of differences in this kind of "esoteric". It may also easily understood that "the old fashioned" Javanese would very reluctant to show his pusaka keris to a stranger, which may also show his ambitions, which is considered as unpolite in Javanese culture. It is also speculated that many good pusaka's ganja was changed on purpose with "ganja wulung" (=black ganja, that is, without pamor) to hide the ambition of the wearer/owner. (Yes, it is very possible to do an "educated guessing" on keris' pamor and dapur, only by looking the ganja on a sheathed keris. An expert may reach 80-90% accuracy. With ganja wulung, only dapur could be predicted, certainly).

Making keris technically, also took a lot of care and concentration. So, if you had a technically perfect keris, it would be almost always guarantee you a good concentration of the maker, which may also connected to "good spiritual circumstances". It may also always guarantee you profits, if you bought it on a fair price :D

"Yoni" jargon to describe the unseen "esoteric" things, IMHO, would be a "recent" invention. "Serat Centhini" which was written in 19 cent. did not use this terminology (it describe the meaning of ricikan and dapur though). It was said that Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, a Surakarta's court prince and also a respected keris expert, who introduced this terminology. (Unfortunately, Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat had passed away) He did not, as I recall (remember please, I have a short memories), explain the Lingga. IMHO, the "yoni" term would resembles the "Yin" side in Taoism( or Daoism, a more approriate spelling), while Lingga is the "Yang" side, the "seen" quality, and thus, the blade itself or exoteric things. Today in Java, Yoni terminology usually use on every "unseen" or "spiritual/spirit" qualities which reside on something, not limited to the female genital symbol where it was originated.
I do aware that some spirit/energy things may reside on kerises. I also aware that some of them reside on my collections. While I'm aware of their presence, once again, it is not my main concern/consideration on selecting kerises. Until today, we live happily and peacefully ;) Serat Centhini warned "be careful on selecting keris. The pamor/iron may bring you a good luck or a bad luck." It did not warn about the spirit or even wrote about it, as I recall.
One of the elders warn me :"Just like other traditional arts like wayang (shadow puppet) or Gamelan, the keris standards, as a classic Javanese art, had been set. Anyone who seeks other standards would only get lost." Perhaps, it is only a Javanese "chauvinistic" point of view :)

Yes, Tim. It is sad to say that almost all about money. It is a fact of live :( Money may not buy everything, it only able to buy 99% things in this world :p

Boedhi Adhitya, thank you once again for shedding light and answering questions that others seem unable to answer. I have found your input on both this thread and the forum in general to be invaluable. :)
Purwacarita, i am not sure where you have gotten you ideas about marriage "under capitalism", but i can assure you that at least here in the USA the average couple still marries for love of one another, not money or possessions. What ever gave you the impression that "it's quite different in capitalistic situation where marriage concerns financial achievement of the groom." Gee, if that were the case i would never have been able to find my beautiful, loving wife. :D Yes, there are certainly cultural differences between here and Indonesia, but i am concerned that you seem determined to push forth the differences you perceive rather than the similarities. Like many North Americans my wife and i began our marriage with love and commitment to walk the path of life together...and very little else. I think perhaps you have watched too many episodes of "Desperate Housewives" or some such TV show. :D Fortunately, even so called reality television does not reflect the actual lives of real people. :)

Well, its hardly unheard of to marry for money, particularly in a capitalist society .... :rolleyes:

Oh! I thought it came from heaven...:D. Some of mine came from the Customs Office. ;)

Well Mark, of course, you are right, it certainly is done, both here and abroad. But the romantic in me will continue to believe that true love is still alive, even here in in the greed-driven morass that is capitalistic America. :rolleyes:
:D
Unfortunately there are greedy people everywhere, regardless of the economic or political system of the country in which they live. Even in Indonesia as is evident from the sad story with which Purwacarita started this post. However, that does not make it the endemic nature of an entire people. :)

I'm sorry Alam Shah; I'd rather not mention sources in the forum .
Not meaning to be disrespectful , just discreet . ;) :)

Boedhi, as always it has been such pleasure to read your posts. I like your wisdom and humour as well as the wealth of information you've took the time to share.

Purwacarita, what is important is the willingness to share and put things on the table and whilst views may be varied or relative, it's good to see what you've to say. No expert knows everything. Your mention on mahar does strike some cord and I've witnessed it practised a couple of times in my vicinity...

Rick, I guess your keris flew from down under? :D

John , the postman may have delivered it to me but in my eyes it came from heaven as Alam Shah has said .

We all know heaven is from above . ;) :D

Very well applied Rick, from down under to from up above.

lol. :D

Hi Boedhi. Gurindam is not stories of symbolic language, it is an unspoken unwritten message contained gift. Because of unspoken and unwritten, the message is delivered using symbols in the gift. But I'd love to read how gurindam could be a form of 2 couplets poem in old malayan letter.

Is it like ...
- no keris, no hantus
- no keris, no commitment
- no money, no keris
- ...or no woman, no cry. :)
???

Well, Boedhi. It is not about who is correct or incorrect but about diversity in the horizon, it does not mean we have to go to the same school to get it right, because we don't. :)

I have told differently that ganja wulung is not to hide the ambition of the bearer, but to hide the identity of the bearer, because the identity of the bearer is symbolized in the ganja.
The blade itself is a balanced of 3 symbols at sor-soran, it can be balance between heaven, family, communities, etc. and the blade length symbolized 3 stages of human life, childhood, pubescense, maturity. There is another blade that symbolize the 4th stage, oldness, when people start their retirement and some of them opt to choose to withdraw themselves to woods to live as hermits. The tang position closer to gandik symbolizes the bearer to always closer to what the gandik symbolize(CE:certain god). The pamor is read as symbol of commitment, non-pamor is read as peace. The peksi is read altogether with the bowing blade as control of the bearer to stay straight though life is not as wanted. The luk represents orientation to meru, the straight blade represents steady fire. Ganja is the identity of the bearer uplifts sor-soran, symbolizes bearer must uplift and balance between 3 things that symbolized at sor-soran. Sounds like another sun. :rolleyes:

I don't think yoni describes esoteric, the recent invention shall be esoteric which decribes yoni. I hope you agree that keris is originally Hindhu weapon (of SEAsia?), and so it is nice to hear what Mr. BPH Sumodiningrat, but with all do respects, I think that he would not deepen his knowledge to the original source of Hindhu. Besides, Lingga Yoni, I think, does not concern with unseen and seen things, they are symbols of junction of 2 different energies.

Hi nechesh. The idea, for certain reasons can't be generalized in all actual lives of real people, unless those desperate people honestly admit and say, alright honey, I marry you for your money. :)

In addition, Lingga Yoni is a part of philosophy ruabhineda, which says there are always 2 different kind in all things where Lingga Yoni implies only to 2 different kinds which complement each other. In context of keris, I think Lingga Yoni describes the complemental 2 energies within. Some says that the union of Lingga Yoni creates life, perhaps that's why this symbol also used in genital/sex.

Purwacarita, you seem to have a somewhat reversed way of looking at this, but in the end, perhaps we both have a similar understanding. :)
The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself. The symbol is not used in "sex/genitals" as you suggest.
That is to say that the "map" should not be confused for the "territory". Yoni has had a particular meaning for a very long time. To suddenly change that meaning can be very confusing for proper understanding. Yoni is a symbol, and therefore the "map", or at least a character on the map. You seem to be using the word to embody the thing itself. For me it does not work. :)

Hi Purwacarita,
I apologize for 'misinterpreting' the gurindam terminology. I heard about gurindam a long time ago somewhere in my elementary/junior high school. http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sastra_Melayu confirm me that it is a form of old malay poet, the famous one is 'Gurindam Dua Belas' by Raja Ali Haji from Riau, Sumatera (1865). A good reading.
I believe, having the same understanding / interpretation on the words being used in communication (oral or written) would be very important. Thus, I accept the definiton of Gurindam as 'an unspoken unwritten message contained gift' exclusively when I'm reading your post. My Javanese neighbours seems confused when I asked them about gurindam :D Perhaps I'm asking the wrong men. Balinese would be more approriate, perhaps ?
Yoni or esoteric or tuah, wheter it is genital or not, fertility or birth, doesn't matter for such an ignorant people like me, as long as it has (in my humble opinion only) 'almost' the same meaning, that is, in this contex, 'the unseen/symbolic/energy' or what ever, but not something we can touch physically with our bare hand, like the blade itself.

I agree with you, that it is not about correct or incorrect, right or wrong. Keris cultures are fulfilled with many different customs/believe from many ethnic groups, islands and nation. Some kerises that are considered 'bad' and unprefered in certain group might be the most sought-after by others. Arbitrating this two different point-of-view would be the best 'cultural tips' for any keris dealers :D And certainly, we shouldn't go to the same school. We might choose Harvard, MIT, or Leiden University. But for now, I choose Mix Martial Art school :D

In the end, keris is a very subjective matters. Every keris lovers would have their own motivation on collecting kerises and have their own 'interpretation' about his keris(-es), and surely nothing wrong with it. But please remember, this should be kept as 'private domain'. Insisting our own interpretation to the 'public domain' would only result in disastrous discussion. On this subject, I quote Serat Centhini for "Javanese taste" cultural tips : "Poma Wekasingsun, lamun ana ingkang nyulayani, atuten kemawon, gerejegan tan ana perlune, becik ngalah ing basa sethitik, malah oleh bathi, tur nora kemruwuk.." (Serat Centhini, Vol. 2) which might mean "Remember my words, if someone argue on you (about keris), just follow his opinions, uneeded arguing better be avoided. It is much better to just comply with his words, then you may get advantages, and not clamorous.."

Last but not least, thank you for your another suns. It really makes my day brighter ;)

best regards,

boedhi adhitya

Pak Boedi, your remarks on the difficulty you were having with Purwacarita`s use of the word "gurindam" make me very relieved. I have been thinking that perhaps I was the only one who could not reconcile the word as used by Purwacarita, with the meaning of the word as I understand it.

The reason your Javanese friends are looking blank when you ask them about the word is that it is not, to the best of my knowledge, a Javanese word . I think it may have a literary usage somewhere, but it is certain that it is never going to be heard in a conversational context in either Indonesian or Javanese.

My understanding of the word was as a you put it, but when I looked in a dictionary I found that it also means:- "an aphorism in two lines". "Aphorism" I understand to mean a short, very expressive observation.

I think I agree with you, that Purwacarita has given the word "gurindam" a particular meaning that does not appear to agree with the generally understood meaning of the word, so when he uses it we had best bear in mind the meaning he is attempting to convey with this word.

As for the use of the word "yoni", not very long ago I seem to recall explaining the use of this word. I accept that the use of language can change and words can at different times convey different meanings, but this continual fixation on "yoni" in a sexual context seems to me to be just a little extreme.

Pak Purwacarita, could you oblige an ignorant old man by telling us a little about the philosophy of "ruabhineda"?

I am unfamiliar with this word, and it seems, from what you have already said, that I really show know something about it. Perhaps senile decay is setting in a little earlier than I would wish.

I must admit, I am finding your unique views on keris related matters to be fascinating reading.

Hi Boedhi. You don't need to apologize, :) I'm open to accept definition/understanding of others. I hope you don't think of me as arguing your post because it only speaks of my understanding of a little piece of Bali view, which you imply your view to nechesh as mine. Thanx for the link, I guess my gurindam is not what Malayan said afterall.

...And with respect to Serat Centini and so, ...bla bla bla, I won't follow wrong opinions, I won't argue it either, ...but I'll post what I think is right (though possibly it is wrong). Right or wrong, it is still my country, but when it's wrong, I won't be ignorant not to tell what I think is right albeit the decision is not mine. I'll decide only for me. :)

Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. :D In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time.

Hi Rick. The maker is mpu Jeno, isn't it?

~Ing ngarso sing tuladha, ing madya mbangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. :)

Hi Marto. I was told that gurindam is used since Singasari and Sriwijaya. I have posted the story. I'm quite surprised that it sounds strange to you all. :)

I'll add later, I got to go right now. :)

~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani :)

Hi Purwacarita. I am trying very hard to understand you, but our ideas seem to be missing each other somehow. :o I understand that communicating in English must be very difficult for you though your English is certainly better than my Indonesian :) , but still, i am having continued problems with not only your use of what i thought as commonly understood words (i.e.Yoni/Lingga) but also what i thought were Indonesian words, many of which i am unable to find in any Indonesian/English dictionary. So i will be the second one (the first being one of your own countrymen) to ask you for the definition of "ruabhineda". Also, since the large majority of us do not speak your language, i would kindly request that if you use it that you please translate it. Understand that i have emense respect for your culture and sincerely welcome your imput and that of other Indonesians in these dicussions on keris. Your imput is vital to our understanding of both keris in context of Indonesia today and your culture in general. But twice you have written "~Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani :) "
Can you (or anyone) please translate so that we might better understand each other. If it is a statement that is only made for the benefit of your fellow countrymen, then i respectfully request that you make it to them directly in private messages, not on this open forum.
I wrote in my previous post: "The Yoni IS a repesentation of the genitalia (sex organ) which obviously symbolized energies that are greater than the organ itself."
You responded to me by writing: "Hi nechesh. It's fine with me if that'll be your view. I can live with that. In my understanding, it is obvious that lingga yoni reserves greater meaning that genital and it has its place in the ruabhineda for quite a long time."
Frankly i am confused and cannot tell whether you are agreeing or disagreeing with me. How is my understanding different than yours? :confused:
I would NEVER argue your right to post the things you believe are right, but while i understand and have great respect for those who can silently hold true to the things they believe and not challenge those who they think are mistaken or misguided, i am not so sure such a philosophy would be a good idea in the context of a place of learning such as this forum. If i, or anyone, were to let remarks they feel are questionable go unchallenged it would only encourge forumites who didn't know any better to accept them as truths and misinformation would spread. This has happened far too often in the keris world. Even books by well respected scholars in the field have given birth to much erroneous information which many collectors hold to to this day. Just because it is in a book doesn't make it true. ;) I admittedly do not know enough about all you say to tell you you are wrong. But i do know enough to question the things you say. :) You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. Who should i believe as a seeker of truth about keris (and a few other things ;) ). When i question them the answers come more easily and make more sense (and jive with what little i already know). When i question you i get misunderstanding, sarcasm and what i sense as a general distain for my culture (please tell me i am wrong?). Please help me understand this. :confused:

Pak Purwacarita, I regret that I have been misunderstood.

Your story is not at all strange. I think I have heard this story in one form or another previously, and I understand the ideas perfectly. Similarly, I understand the idea and practice of a gesture or action carrying an unspoken message. You and I both know that this is a part of Javanese culture and society, and anybody who lives in Javanese society needs to know how to read the message, and how to use the action to carry the message.

My only problem was with your use of the word "gurindam". However, after lengthy thought on this matter, I think I can see how it would be possible use the word as you have used it.

I do not in any way question your right to use language as you see fit. I regret that I was insufficiently astute to immediately understand your meaning. The fault was in my lack of sensitivity, not in your usage of language.

Thanks Marto for coming foward to clear up this misunderstanding. It certainly is good to know that there is some understanding between countrymen here and it lessens the confusion for me at least to know that the two of you are in agreement on at least this single word "gurindam".
But i am afraid my issues here go further than this single word and i hope we can all come to a clearer understanding of each other soon. This doesn't mean we all need to agree, just understand. ;) :)

Nechesh, you worte You asked a while back where your fellow countrymen were in these discussions, but when they speak up and disagree with you you seem to treat them with disrespect. I'm sorry that my post was read that way I guess I'm not good enough to use English language or maybe I often used English words which read politely by coutrymen (like me), but read disrespect by Englishmen. If you can quote specifically which part I sound like that, please do so so I can fix that. I won't edit my post, but will post the clarification. I hope it works for you and for the countrymen.

Your understanding of Yoni is diffenrent from mine. I understand it NOT as a representation of sex organ and I have posted on ruabhineda but you seem to skip it.

The words Ing karsa sing tuladha, ing madya mangku karsa, tut wuri handayani in my modest understanding will read the ideal philosophy of life, where if we are in front of things or if we feel superior of more powerful than others, we should give constructive examples through our daily deeds. If we are among others or in community, we shall share our constructive spirit (not soul). If we are behind the scene we shall be the driving force to motivate others to contructiveness. I hope I'm not wrong.

About gurindam, thanx to Boedhi I have another understanding. My last understanding is as I posted that it is a gift with symbols of an unspeakable message, while the message is usually unspeakable, it is usually sarcastic in order to echo the message in bearer's mind. But having gurindam said in poem like the Malayan's, I think that I could be wrong in putting the name gurindam to call the gift. Perhaps the correct one is that gurindam is the sarcastic method of message delivery where keris, poem, gift etc are only the media. Thus I think in Malayan gurindam version in poem, the poem itself is not gurindam, but by reading it, ones will remember something like his duty or commitment, and so the poem serves the purpose as gurindam. A mild sarcastic message to us in order to remember our duty/commitment. There, I think it's better.

~Hing ngarsa sung tuladha, hing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani. :) It's now a gurindam. :)

Pak Purwa, Sigit will please to ask Pak Purwa to tell what means it:-

Ing ngarso sing tuladha ing madya mbangun karsa tut wuri handayani.

Sigit very ashame and embaras because to ask this because Sigit Jawa pribumi and from Jember and parent from Matesih but Sigit no can Krama Inggil and already to ask to other people much and they not can understand also.

Please Pak Purwa can to write this with ngoko or with Bahasa Indonesia.

Please Pak Purwa no to write the filsafat however to write the word with ngoko or Bahasa Indonesia.

Please to forgive Sigit for stupid and for no good education because Sigit to cause Pak Purwa very much problem and difficult.


Sigit say one thousand time thank you to Pak Purwa for Pak Purwa understand and help.

My respect

Sigit.

I am usually trying to stay away from the Kris issues: it is far too complicated and specialized area of weaponry and I know far too little about it to utter anything intelligent.
But what we are talking about here is not tangible aspects of an intricately and beautifully shaped piece of metal (blade)and some organic material on top (handle), but some mystical and supernatural things.

Yes, I know, we are supposed to be sensitive to other peoples' beliefs but the last time I looked outside, it still was 21st century. We can and should learn cultural aspects of the weapons we collect including the local lore, but out of curiosity: does anybody around here seriously and rationally believe in "esoteric properties' and "mystical powers" of this lovely weapon?
If the answer is in the positive, I'll be requesting an application form for the Flat Earth Society.

Whoa, a lot of good discussion has transpired since I last looked at this post in early September. :) It was a really informative look into the concept of 'Mahar' and more in the Javanese context. I'll just be 'sponging' off this thread. :) Thank you.

The keris blade doesn't quite look like Empu Jeno's style, and also, I thought Empu Jeno would dress his kerises in Yogyakarta sheath and handle?

First of all Ariel, there is a great deal of misunderstanding as to what magickal and mystical properties actually are. It's really hard to have a discussion about these things when we don't have a common definition of what we are talking about. If you choose to believe that the unseen world is non-existent i for one don't have any problem with that. Perhaps electricity, magnetism, gravity and even air itself also don't really exist because we can not see them. ;) Try reading a bit of modern physics if your interested in some deep mystic thought. :)
This doesn't really seem to be the proper forum to get into a debate as to whether or not such things exist. But to answer you question i suggest you pick up your application for your local branch of the Flat Earth Society. :D

Gurindam, Yoni, and Ki Hadjar Dewantara
 

Happy Ramadhan to you who are fasting,
and salaams to all,

Sorry to interupt the discussion but as we wait for Pak Purwa I think that I might be able to support the respected members of this discussion who hold the opinion that a gurindam is a form of Malay literature and a type of pantun. In traditional Jawa the term gurindam is not used. Traditional Malay poetry follows a strict form and the umbrella term pantun is used to describe the verses. Often the first two lines are merely opening rhymes for the last two lines:

Berburu ke padang datar
Mendapat rusa belang kaki
Berguru kepalang ajar
Bagai bunga kembang tak jadi

Hunt in the flat grass-land
Get a stag with speckled feet
Study unwhole-heartedly
Like a flower failing to bloom.

Yoni in keris terms was indeed introduced by the Solo Prince. I believe it is a confusing term and was accepted because it seemed right and was introduced by a Prince. If you must use the term yoni it should refer to th ganja, the lingga the wilah. However after walisanga Islamized keris these terms were no longer used in Jawa. Yoni was introduced by the Solo Prince to refer to the esoteric properties of the keris in a seminar in the 1980's and it is documented in EK Harsrinuksmo.

Ing ngarso sun (not sing) tulada, ing madya mangun karsa, tut wuri handayani...

Is also a modern Jawa motto. It was thought up by Ki Hadjar Dewantara as the motto for teachers in Taman Siswa schools. Ki Hadjar himself was educated in Europe in around WWI and worked as a teacher in a Montessori school and was familiar with Steiner too. He came back to Indonesia to become the father of modern Indonesian education. A pity many of his principles are no longer followed. The motto means: In front I lead, in the midst I motivate, from behind I energise.

I also disagree that most Indonesians buy keris for their esoteric properties. I collect keris for their individual merit, the beauty and the workmanship, and the story the individual keris inherently brings with it as an artefact and this is what I learned from my father and his friends so has been going on for generations.

Warmest salaams to all,

KC

To have my computer work, I need to connect it to the electrical outlet and if it falls off the desk it ends on the floor but not on the ceiling. Composition of air, its pressure and movement are easily measurable and you may try to hold your breath for a while or dive in your own bathtub to get a final proof of the air's existence. Where is the evidence that magic is real? I have recently read that 25% of Americans believe that the Sun rotates around the Earth .. Seems to me that Galileo died in vain...
As to the propriety of discussing such things on this Forum, I disagree. I have no problem with anybody maintaining his personal religious and occult beliefs. The minute these beliefs are expressed in connection with weapons (the topic of this Forum), they become a fair game for questioning. You would not hesitate to call me on the carpet if I posted here my personal belief that Shamshirs originally came from Nicaragua.

You mean they didn't !?! :D :D

Seriously Ariel , swords and mysticism are historically and inextricably entwined throughout most Eastern and many Western cultures ; the cruciform shape of the European sword of the 12th and 13 century crusaders for example representing the sword as an implement of God's will ; Thulfiqar and the religious significance of the bifurcated blade to Muslims .

Nowhere is this mysticism more evident than in the keris .
I can see no problem with letting keris enthusiasts hash this subject out in the forum providing they do so in a polite and civilised manner .
I would however very much like to see this discourse continue in English because it is the 'lingua franca' of this forum .

I agree with you that we are getting somewhat mired in this thread and I think it is due mostly to language differences and interpretation .

The EEW forum is a buffet of sorts ; when passing through the line if you find a particular dish unappealing then don't put it on your plate . :)

My point Ariel is that you are "calling to the carpet" beliefs which are a matter of faith, not science. The measurement of the scientific phenomenon which you mention is all fine and good, but you must also remember that scientist have a way of developing methods of measurement that fit into the answers they are seeking. Probably why the answers keep changing as science continually develops "better" methods of measurement.(i just found out yesterday that Mt. Everest is actually 14 ft. shorter than previously thought :eek: ). So tell me, does sub-atomic material take the form of a particle or a wave? All depends on how you look at it. :)
Where is the evidence that magic is real? I don't need any. That's part of what faith is all about. My personal experiences are my own. I know what i know and don't need to qualify it by the scientfic methods of others. But i have had my own experiences with the unseen world which equal your experience with your computer's electric problems and picking it up off the floor after a fall.(i.e. they are very real to me) :) I have no great need, however, to prove them to you or anyone else for that matter. While i would have little problem calling ones science to the carpet, i would personally think twice before calling ones faith there.

Talking about magic and weapons. That Wavooka chap who came up with the ghost dance and ghost shirts, there is a good illustration of magic found wanting in the face of science, or does or did his magic not count. Just a thought . Tim

BTW, thanks Kiai for adding a bit more depth and understanding to this discussion in a clear and forthright manner. I greatly appreciate your citing of the sources of certain phrases and beliefs as well, allowing us to put these things into time frames and better understand their meanings and significance.

Pak Kiyai

I'm afraid you just gave an excellent example of a pantun. A gurindam is a two-line rhyme. Pls see here: http://www.kampungnet.com.sg/modules...page&pageid=22

Greetings,

I have been reading this thread with great interest, as (for me) it answers numerous questions about the keris, specifically about the shape. What makes them all so different, what causes their uniqueness, what defines them? Mostly what is their purpose?

So far, it is my understanding that the dapur and pamor are representative of many qualities inherant to the keris bearer. History, identity, personality, dreams, desires, passions, all of these are forged within the fabric of the keris? To me, the words of all the members here knowledgeable of the Indonesian/Javanese/Malay culture indicate that keris can be read much as Japanese/Chinese calligraphy is read. That the very act or writing -in this case crafting the keris- can tell everything about the maker, the bearer, and perhaps even the reader. I gather that all these properties are also extended to the ukiran, warangka, and the pendok.
To Sirs. Purwacarita, Marto, Nechesh, Boedhi and Sigit, is the keris so wholly symbolic of your culture(s), that it sums up its phylosophies and beliefs, its poetry and history? Was (is) the keris meant to represent all of one man's past, present and future, and is that why it was(is) such a private-intimate affair?

Is my understanding the least bit correct?
Regards,
Manolo

Hi, Ariel. Welcome aboard on 'keris forum' :)

Mysticism vs science is a very tought matter, and will never end in one final conclusion. Just like discussing the God's existence. It is philosophers' "play ground". I do respect your doubtful and skeptic opinion on mystcism. Today's world is fulfilled with materialism and positivism point of view which eventually gave advance to the science and human civilization. (some, will argue that it is nature destruction and certainly not an advancement).

Good philosopher would aware of limitation of science. It rely heavily on observation of phenomenon. An 'observation' would heavily rely on '5 senses'. Thus, blind men would observe the world quite different and make their own understanding on it. Red or blue, dark or light, have no meaning for them. And none of playboy's playmates is beauty/sexy. In fact, they may have their own understanding on 'sexy' :) Thus, modern science would see all unobserved phenomenon as unexist, while it is not necessarily true. Radiation, will never exist in science until Marie Curie, accidentally, observed the phenomenon. Thank's to her, today, it is "exist", with the help of radiation detector/geiger counter. Without this "help", radiation will be "unexist" until someone get sick, and in the old days, people would gave offering. Other limitation to science is "the phenomenon should be repeatable". Unrepeatable phenomenon would be seen as "random/accidential".

Quoting Tanpoaran on "Sangkan Paraning Dumadi" (which unfortunately, I believe, only Javanese could read it :( ), "Belief needs no evidence. Once the evidence is observable, it should no longer called belief. It's a fact. If it is a fact, it does exist whether you believe it or not". For many of us, mysticism would only be a belief / faith. But for some, it could be a fact of life. I know someone who has control the fire using his heirloom spear while his neighbour's house on fire. Other is immersing his 'Kebo lajer' keris on a pail of water and bath his cows with it to cure it. It's all work, and no science could explain. For them, it is a fact, no matter what science said. IMHO, those who believe in God would easily accept a "miracle". For them, life itself is a miracle. Those who didn't, would see miracle as "random / accidential happens". For me personally, nothing so 'weird' about it, just like a 'miracleous' pimple just pop-up in the morning :D Miracles happens every days. I would not "exagerrated" the keris' mysticism, and Ariel, someone, do believe it seriously (and try to rationalized it) ;)

Dear Mr. Manolo, I believe you have a quite good understanding ;). But please remember, this understanding only apply if the owner/bearer "match" it on purpose. Thus, while you may read the keris' purpose as it intended by the maker, you shouldn't 'expand/attributed' this understanding to the collector who own the keris just for the sake of beauty. But traditionally, match or not, you should treat the keris with respect 'as if' it is a match to the owner. To determine which one really 'match' the owner, you should pay close attention on how the owner treat his kerises, eg. which one he really prized of, proud of or love. Even so, this methods not always correct, especially today :D

Western approach would be to "control, dominate or overcome", while Eastern approach would always "seek in harmonies / balance". Understanding and giving some respect on this different approachs would "ease" our cultural understanding. Just my personal thought :)

Last but not least, happy ramadhan too Pak Kiai Carita and all of you who are fasting.

best regards.

Assalaamu'alaikum'

Rahman thank you for the correction ... still the point is that gurindam is a Malay form and not a Jawa form. As for the hidden meanings in words mentioned by Purwacarita as gurindam, in Jawa are not called gurindam. Maybe Purwa means sanepan (sanepa) ....

Also while we are at it, am I mistaken to think that all forms of Malay poetry are forms of pantun?

Warm salaams to all.
KC