HI TIM WHAT WAS THE DATE OF THE EXPIDITION AND IS THERE ANY INFO ON WHERE THE ITEMS WERE COLLECTED?

LOOKING OVER THE THREAD IT SEEMS ABOUT COMPLETE UNLESS WE CAN RUN ACROSS SOME NEW REFRENCES.
I COULD ONLY THINK OF ONE THING TO ADD THE WEAPONS OR RICTUAL ITEMS MADE BY THE TRIBES WERE MADE FOR USE, THOSE MADE BY SAILORS WERE MOSTLY MADE FOR SOUVINEERS OR GIFTS NOT USE. THE SAILOR WOULD BRING HIS HOME AND IT WOULD END UP ON A WALL OR STORED SOMEWHERE.
THE NATIVE ITEMS MIGHT BE DESTROYED IN BATTLE OR WORN OUT AND DISCARDED WHEN MORE EFFECIENT WEAPONS BECAME AVAILABLE FOR INSTANCE METAL AX,SWORD OR GUNS. IF THEY HAD RELIGIOUS OR CEREMONIAL VALUE THEY WOULD PROBABLY HAVE BEEN RICTUALY BURIED OR OTHERWISE DISPOSED OF. SO I WOULD GUESS A LARGER PROPORTION OF SAILOR MADE ITEMS SURVIVED OF COURSE THE NATIVE MADE ONES TRADED FOR BY SAILORS WOULD ALSO HAVE HAD A BETTER CHANCE OF SURVIVAL.

Hi Vandoo. 1912. There is some of the material collected in the Natural History museum London. I have found that this is a collection of skulls, I thought that sort of thing had stopped by then. I would imagine that some of the insects may be there also. There may be some material at the FitzWilliam Cambridge where Wollaston was a tutor, only to be shot by a pupil who then took thier own life.
http://www.papua-insects.nl/history/...expedition.htm

Hi All,

Just saw a new article on sawfishes. Couple of things in it that are relevant here.

1) I didn't realize when I posted above, but the CITES ban on sawfish trade reportedly goes into effect September 1, 2007. This will ban all international sales of sawfish, dead or alive, whole or in parts.

In addition to international trade, in the US, domestic trade in sawfish will also be banned, since the US follows CITES rules in this regard. Other countries have other rules. I don't know if sawfish bills are like ivory, in that older items are grandfathered in if they have a documented provenance and age. Please check your local laws if you want to sell or buy a sawbill.

2) the reason for the ban is that sawfish have been hammered by coastal development and overfishing (accidental or intentional, see below). Since they grow slowly and reproduce slowly (basically at human rate), every species of sawfish is endangered. Some species are down in the 3,000 animals range.

3) What do people do with sawfish parts, other than carving weapons? According to the article, sawbills are believed to be the most effective tool for repelling demons, disease spirits, and ghosts across Asia (comments?).

So Tim, you can now go into the exorcism business. Have fun!

Bottom line: if you own one of these bills and want to sell it, do it now. Otherwise, it will become an heirloom. Considering how weird and neat these critters are, if you're so inclined, you may want to support conservation and preservation efforts for these species, so that future generations will get to see sawfish bills outside of museums and dusty collections. Realize also that in the old days, they used to get 10 meters long, and now they rarely top three meters, so the longer everyone waits, the bigger they get.

Fearn

I think I will keep mine. I could make a few bob as a local sham phoowy man. :cool:

sorry to disturb the dead.
 

I do not really want to wake the dead but just have to post this link.

http://www.britishmuseum.org/researc...<br /> arch_o

Perhaps this link will work?

http://www.britishmuseum.org/join_in...s.aspx?asset_i

SEEING AS HOW IT LIVES AGAIN I WILL ADD SOME PICTURES. :D
1. SAWFISH SCULPTURE MADE WITH REAL SAWFISH BILL BY YOUNG DR. SUESS HIMSELF IN THE 1930'S
2. BROADBILL SWORDFISH SWORD AND TWO FIDS MADE FROM MARLIN BILLS (MARLIN SPIKE) ECT.
3. AFRICAN MADE EXAMPLE 1946, CUT OUT HANDLE.
4. SAWFISH SWORD WITH INTERESTING HANDLE
5. SAWFISH SWORD
6. CLOSE UP OF VERY OLD BROADBILL SWORDFISH SHOWING PATINA.
I HAVE A NICE EXAMPLE FROM NEW GUINEA BUT THE CAMERAS ARE DOWN SO I CAN'T ADD PIC'S NOW.

LAST YEAR I WAS LOOKING AT A LARGE COLLECTION OF INDIAN ARTEFACTS AND FOSSILS FROM OKLAHOMA. THE FELLOW HAD SOMETHING HE SAID WAS ONE HALF OF A BOW FOUND NEAR OKLAHOMA CITY. IT WAS A BROADBILL SWORDFISH BILL AND A VERY OLD ONE CERTIANLY PRECOLUMBIAN. SO NATIVE AMERICANS BROUGHT ONE FROM THE OCEAN TO OKLAHOMA IN PREHISTORIC TIMES. WEAPON OR CEREMONIAL OBJECT WE WILL NEVER KNOW.

Found this photo of a drunk man wielding what appears to be a sawfish sword... :shrug:
might be during a festival with self-hurting rituals and stuff... "don't try this at home" :D

http://www.taiwanese-secrets.com/ima...ctures.025.jpg

How can we say whether his intoxication is chemical and not spiritual ?

If that's how one repels demons with a sawfish bill, all I can say is that I hope it was worth it for him.

F

I think this is worth showing here as well as the European section. German renaissance parade sword.

Salaams Tim Simmons ~ I found an obscure reference book but it is in German "ASMAT MYTHOS UND KUNST" (Berlin Museum) ISBN 3-88609-381-6. This appears to be a masterworks of all things ethnographic in the region Asmat (PNG) I will endeavor to add pictures to your various excellent threads on the areas weapons and quoting this fine reference. It is full of shields bows and spears... etc etc with superb photographs.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi. :shrug:

Note; Picture of swordfish and extracts in German.

Ibrahiim, thank you for the images of the sawfish blade in the German reference....impressive research as always!! This establishes of course the presence of these items of ethnographic exotica from the Oceanic regions in Europen context, and now it will be interesting to discover just how far back these were brought into the European countries.

Naturally the possibility of these returning from the East Indies areas via Portuguese, Spanish and Dutch merchant ships who certainly must have been through areas which had indirect contact with some of the habitat regions with sawfish.

It is most helpful to have images posted like this one from the German book on a singular basis as you have done. It is by far best to post images of this kind separately so that observations and associated text can be directed to that specific image and example. In this way these important examples become essential to the discussion.

What is most curious, as we have noted, is this sawfish blade in mounts of medieval style, and shown as a German parade sword. The use of sawfish blades is of course well established in Oceanic regions, but seems most odd in this European context. What was the significance of this, and are there other instances of these kinds of features on other European swords.
We have this sword running concurrently on the European forum so it will be interesting to see what develops.

All best regards,
Jim

About that German parade sawbill: The thing to remember is that there are multiple species of sawfish. The large toothed sawfish historically was found north almost to the straits of Gibraltar (http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/pdfs/ran...othsawfish.pdf). Thus, there's no logistical problem with a sawbill ending up in Europe during Renaissance time or before. Note that I can't identify sawfish bills to species from pictures, and if that sawbill came from an Indo-Pacific species, the connection would be more interesting.

Best,

F

IT IS NOT UNUSUAL TO FIND THE SAWFISH OR ITS BILL FEATURED IN THE OLD DRAWINGS AND PRINTS OF THE "CABINETS OF CURIOSITYS" THAT WAS THE PRECURSOR FOR TODAYS MUSEUMS. THESE EARLY COLLECTIONS MADE BY ROYALTY OR THE RICH WERE VERY POPULAR AMONG THOSE CLASSES THEY WERE ALSO THE ONES WHO COLLECTED ARMS AND ARMOR.
THOSE WHO MADE THEIR FORTUNES IN TRADE ESPECIALLY SHIPPING OFTEN SOUGHT OUT OR HAD PEOPLE IN THEIR EMPLOYMENT SEEK THE EXOTIC AND UNUSUAL IN FORIGN COUNTRIES.
I WILL LOOK AND SEE IF I CAN FIND A PICTURE OF A CABINENT OF CURIOSITYS. CROCODILES, LARGE SNAKES,SKULLS, SHELLS ODD BIRDS AND SEA CREATURES ,ECT. A UNICORN HORN, COCO DE MER, DRAGON TOOTH, SEA MONSTER AND OTHER MYTHOLOGICAL BEASTS OR MONSTERS WERE SOUGHT AFTER FOR SUCH COLLECTIONS. BELOW IS A LINK TO WIKIPEDIA.
TWO PICTURES CAN YOU FIND THE SAWFISH BILLS. ENJOY :)

COLLEhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_curiositiesCTIONS.

Wow Vandoo, the cabinet of curiosities (Wunderkammer) in the top engraving is that of the great Danish physician and natural historian Ole Worm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ole_Worm) He was one of those old school great men of the world: Part multi(!)disciplinary scientist, part freakshow host - a true rock n' roller while keeping it real and a great inspiration to myself as a biologist!

As an albeit offtopic, (but so very cool) side-note I can mention that, when I, in connection to my work, recently went to meet the curator of the mammal collection at the current Zoological Museum of Copenhagen, I actually held the very same narwhal tusk from the engraving above! -you can see it lying on the middle shelf on the back wall.

Even though it was lying on a huge rack with many other prime specimens of narwhal, this one stuck out above all: Twisted and weird like a corkscrew it is, with a patina that'd make any ivory aficionado drool! Holding it in hand and feeling the brush from the wings of 400 years of history made the hairs on my arms stand up. :D


Cheers, - Thor

Salaams all ~ Then I remembered I have one somewhere in my store... :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Updated information on sawfishes. It looks like their conservation status is even worse than I thought.

At this point, I'd strongly suggest taking a pass on any sawfish bills you see, especially if you have to take it through customs (they're all now protected by CITES). It's too bad, but they are coast and river creatures, and there isn't a lot of space left for them anywhere. Hopefully they can be properly protected and given enough time to recover, so that our grandkids can see sawfish and those bills in something other than a museum.

F

End of.

I just wanted to post the image in the thread "Period Photos of People with Ethnographic Arms", but noticed that there are only photos. So I decided to put some more pictures and information.
From "Seventy two specimens of castes in India":

Some more images. And as I know in Italian journal in English will be published the articles of D.Miloserdov ("mahratt" on the forum) about the weapons from rostrum of sawfish in Indo-Persian region.

I guess there are three distinct groups of such "swords":

1. Genuine native examples . Those need to be treated with respect: their owners were true warriors who used the only materials available to them with imagination and dignity.

2. Scrimshaw examples made often (if not mostly) by bored sailors or beachcombers to pass time or just to enjoy the ability to fashion something pretty. Those are good examples of folk arts and crafts, with no connection to any military purpose or tradition. In the same category as trench art.

3. Pretentious mixes of true military parts ( handles mostly) and plain sawfish rostra, despite easy availability of true fighting blades. Those I would view as shameless pretenders, exotics for its own sake and ,- most likely,- touristy items. They have neither fighting purpose, nor artistic flair. Discussing them seriously is akin to pondering upon military significance of General Tso's chicken.

Why guess? You have read the article in Russian. May I post your public review here? Your opinion will be very important for colleagues:

From Palace Museum of Forbidden City. Qing Dinasty:

Great contribution ! If you were to be slashed by a sawfish sword weapon you would be in a very poor state. I think it has been established that pre industrial communities used these natural resources as weapons. That is all I wanted to show in the beginning.

HERE IS AN EXAMPLE OF A NATIVE MADE SAWFISH SWORD AND ONE MADE INTO A SOUVENIR FROM COSTA RICA. NO DOUBT THESE SAWFISH BILLS HAVE BEEN OF INTEREST TO MAN FROM PREHISTORIC TIMES EITHER AS A WEAPON OR CURIOSITY OR TROPHY. UNFORTUNATELY THE SAWFISH IS EASILY FOULED IN NETS AND IS FOUND IN SHALLOW WATERS SO IS OFTEN CAUGHT AND KILLED BY ACCIDENT BY THOSE FISHING FOR OTHER KINDS OF FISH. I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF A COMMERCIAL FISHERY FOR THEM SO THEY MUST NOT BE TASTY. THEY ARE THE LAST THING A FISHERMAN WOULD WANT IN HIS NET, CAN YOU IMAGINE A 600 POUND SAWFISH TANGLED IN YOUR NET GETTING IT OUT AND THE DAMAGE DONE TO THE NET WOULD RUIN A DAYS FISHING. AND IT SURE WOULD NOT DO THE SAWFISH ANY GOOD. THOUGH I DON'T LIKE SEEING A PAINTED SAWFISH BILL SOUVENIR I SUPPOSE ITS BETTER THAN JUST THROWING SUCH COOL OBJECTS IN THE TRASH HEAP. :shrug:
#1. & #2. SAWFISH SWORD FROM PAPUA NEW GUINEA NATIVE MADE.
31.75 IN LONG
#3. COSTA RICAN SOUVENIR CIRCA 1960 22 IN. LONG
#4. 12 FOOT LONG ,CAUGHT 1920'S FLORIDA I WOULD ESTIMATE THE BILL TO BE AROUND 30 IN. LONG
#5 & #6 ARE FROM HEDGES OLD BOOK GIANT FISH, I CAN'T VOUCH FOR THE INFORMATION GIVEN, BUT IF TRUE THEY TRULY ARE HUGE.
#7. A VERY LARGE SAWFISH

A BOY CAUGHT A 900 POUND SAWFISH AT GALVESTON TEXAS IN THE 1970'S THERE WERE PICTURES AND AN ARTICLE IN THE PAPER BUT I DON'T REMEMBER THE LENGTH. I HAVE SEEN A LARGE SAWFISH ROSTRUM IN A MUSEUM SOMEWHERE THAT WOULD HAVE MADE A GOOD LADDER TO CLIMB INTO A BUNK BED.

Good examples, Vandoo.
Weapons outlive their purpose and with it their meaning.

Islanders used sawfish swords as true weapons, just like Native Americans used flint knives. They did it for as long as there were no replacements.
When (and if) iron became available, newly-made examples ceased to exist as historical weapons and became art objects, ceremonial/parade contraptions, tourist fodder etc.

I would find it impossible to believe that despite wide availability of iron implements, sawfish swords retained even a minimal role as weapons per se. The Chinese, German and Indian examples shown here are just arts and crafts. Nobody in his right mind would actually pit them against even the crudest steel sword.

As a matter of fact, even steel swords share the same fate: millions of them shed blood in the 17-18 centuries, but now, with tanks, missiles, planes and machine guns, swords are just parade toys.

And in another vein: would any of us collect modern China- or India-made swords made out of even the most beautiful damascus?

Dear Ariel
Very soon all seriously interested in the matter will be able to draw conclusions on how to, when and who used rostrum sawfish in the Indo-Persia, as a weapon.
I will let you know in this topic name of the journal in which the English language will my article: Using the sawfish rostrums (Pristis pectinatus) as a weapon in the Indo-Iranian region inthe XVth – XIXth centuries.

Best Regards :)

MAHRATT I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOUR ARTICLE KEEP US POSTED. HERE IS A PICTURE OF TWO VARIETIES OF SAWFISH FOR COMPARISON. THE SMALL TOOTHED MORE NARROW ONE BEING THE TYPE COMMON IN THE RED SEA AND INDIAN OCEAN. THE BROAD LARGE TOOTHED ONE IS WHAT IS FOUND IN THE GULF OF MEXICO AND LIKELY THRU-OUT THE CARIBBEAN. I DON'T KNOW THE FULL RANGE OF THESE SPECIES. I INCLUDE TWO PICTURES OF A FOSSIL SAWFISH ROSTRUM AND SOME TEETH. THE LARGE SECTION IS 10 INCHES LONG THEY ARE FROM MOROCCO, CRETACEOUS PERIOD. ONCOPRISTUS NUMIDUS SAWFISH.

Vandoo, I will inform you as soon as the magazine will appear in print.

Photos:

Dear participants of the Forum,
I represent to your attention the article:

IS THE ARTICLE IN ENGLISH ? I LOOKED UP HE SITE BUT DID NOT FIND THE RECENT PUBLICATION LISTED OR A WAY TO ORDER IT. THERE ONLY SEEMS TO BE THE ABSTRACT OF THE ARTICLE ON THE FORUM POST IS THERE A WAY TO LINK WITH IT AND READ IT ON THE POST. I LOOK FORWARD TO READING YOUR ARTICLE. THANKS :)

Yes, dear Vandoo.

Article in English. It is published in the journal: Armi Antiche. I think in the near future article will be available. I myself have not yet received the author's copy of the journal Armi Antiche with my article :)

Vandoo,
I read it in Russian.

As usual, Mahratt presented very impressive factual description of specimens and Internet pictures.

However, the final conclusion is flawed: during 15-19 centuries rostra might have been used as fighting implements by some primitive island societies, but were not true weapons in the Indo-Persian areal or in Europe. They might have served there as processional, decorative, votive or parade curiosities, but the above areas left not only the Stone but even the Bronze Age well behind them.
As I mentioned in an earlier post here, discussing their fighting role is as productive as deliberating about military history of General Tso's Chicken.

I cannot tell you whether in the "Italian" version of the article this obvious error was stemming from a faulty judgement or from poor translation. Hopefully, the latter.

Vandoo,
dear Ariel, has recently "short memory" (do not know what it is connected) :(

In 2014 (when the article was published in Russian, and I placed it on a Russian forum) Ariel wrote: "Very good article: Unfolded, sober and indisputable examples." This can be confirmed by those participants in the forum who also speak Russian (as Ariel). And they are here in the forum :)

post 284: http://forum.guns.ru/forummessage/79/1077965-12.html

So I propose to await the release of the magazine (it will appear in September). Then the one who reads my article, be able to make on the article his personal opinion;)

Well, I can only repeat my earlier assessment: factual descriptions of the examples are very good. Mahratt did an excellent job and should be rightfully proud of it.
It is the conclusions that make no sense.

Hopefully, translation was the real culprit.

Of course, of course :)

I wonder why it was not mentioned in Russian forum? There were only praise from a reputable Ariel)))) Perhaps, dear Ariel - a very tactful man;) And he was afraid to hurt me? Or maybe the whole thing in the personal animosity that arose over the past two years? ;) Of course not! I think Ariel little forgotten the Russian language, and therefore did not understand my article.

But, I repeat. It is not necessary to impose their views to others. Soon everyone interested will be able to read the article and draw up a personal opinion.

Mahratt,
As a rule I do not wish to enter into direct argument with you.


Let me explain: the minute you put your thoughts on paper and publish them, they become a part of the public domain and are opened to discussion and criticism.

I originally gave you high marks only for your descriptive abilities and still maintain this position. Please pay attention: nowhere and never did I praise your discussions of your material or the quality of your conclusions. I discussed it with you both personally and publicly on some Russian Fora about a host of your papers. You preferred not to take my comments into consideration. This was your unquestionablle right, just as it was your choice to advertise your publications here. But then it is my choice and my right to reflect on their quality.

There is no animosity on my part; just an objective peer review. There is nothing personal, it is only business, and it applies to you just the same way it applies to anybody else .

This is how the game of academic publishing is played. Learn the rules and welcome to the arena.

You know, I would not like being executed by such a weapon.
It would be a very ugly way to die.
So maybe no one carried one into combat.
Instead it's a sword for execution? :shrug:

I haven't read the article yet tbh; this is just an observation. :o

Ariel has observed correctly that the academic world sometimes can be a tough arena in which to express oneself, and that objective criticism of an academic paper can be blunt at times.

There are some folks here who adopt a strict academic approach in discussing ethnographic edged weapons, and wish to see all opinions justified logically and supported by facts. Other members do not participate in discussions at that level, but rather they prefer to speculate in a less formal manner about how things might be. Personally, I think there is a place for both approaches. Informal, free wheeling discussions freed from the constraints of rigorous proof or supporting data are fun to engage in and sometimes produce some interesting ideas (hypotheses) that can then be looked at more critically.

The different views between those who are looking for an "informal chat" and those who want to engage in a more "rigorous discussion" sometimes has led to problems in our discussions. I would venture to say that most members who contribute to these forums are not from an academic background and do not necessarily wish to engage in "rigorous discussions," but would prefer to engage in a more informal manner. Others who want a more rigorous approach will take exception to a lack of evidence in such ideas. Strong disagreements and tensions may develop. That's one of the reasons why these forums have moderators--to intercede when interpersonal exchanges get overly heated.

When an article is published in a reputable journal (as is the case here) it is an academic paper that has hopefully passed through peer review and is open to rigorous analysis by those who read it. By bringing such a paper to our attention, the author invites Forum members to view it as a serious academic contribution to the field and to subject it to careful scrutiny.

Serious academic contributions, such as the paper mahratt has brought before us, are important information to our field and deserve our careful consideration. Respectful "rigorous discussion" by critics is actually the ultimate compliment to be paid to the author of such an article, and that is what Ariel has offered. Of course, distinguished academic researchers in unrelated fields can be wrong in their opinions about ethnographic weapons, but Ariel is engaging the author in an objective manner that asks for objective responses.

The present discussion of a peer reviewed paper illustrates when a more rigorous discussion is not only appropriate but seems the correct way to approach the information it contains.

Ian.