Salaams all. Note to Forum. Is the blade seen held by the man at photo 1 at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15241 the same sort of blade on the project sword style here? :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Sorry I just don't see what this has to do with the type of sword we are discussing. It is a completely different hilt style...... :mad:

It would appear from the links to Michael Blalock's pics, that the long "Yemeni/Saudi" hilt in fact is a genuine article, and not some "backyard invention". Particularly, the pic of the display in the Museum seems to confirm this. It's a pity we don't know what the descriptive caption says.....
It now remains to try and establish some time line for these, and if possible their place of origin.
I have taken the liberty of reproducing Michael's pics here for reference.
Regards Stu

Hi Stu!

Sorry for a tiny bit of OT, but in which museum was the above photo taken? The middle saber with the brass hilt appears to be a Bornean/Sumatran Piso Podang - what a strange company he here finds himself in. :D


Cheers, - Thor

Hi Thor,
I am no expert in these but also thought that Piso somewhat out of place.....I understand that the pic was taken at a Military Museum In Yemen. Michael may respond to this and clarify for us.
Regards Stu

Perhaps not out of place at all....Sea trade and Arabian influences are seen in the region.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~Not the hilt ... the blade. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~ Yes, I thought that's what we were doing?...trying to ascertain whether or not ? Try prefixing the concept with the tried and tested formula- where, what, why, when, how and who? It often works.

Further more~ and checking back through the forum library there is nothing set in "stone" here (scuse pun) and quite often a fresh look uncovers unforseen detail. For example what if the Mamluke style of sword blade on post #31 of this thread is related and is there any link to the Omani Battle Sword hilt? Not least in the questionaire is when did it appear, who used it (and for what?) and where? What I do know is this is from the Red Sea region and is absolutely not Omani...

#1 I believe holds the key...since it becomes clearly obvious that the hilt which has some age to it was made to fit this specific style of weapon therefor it was all made at the same time hilt, blade and scabbard...perhaps focus on that.

After that, the field is wide open for a "forum" solution. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams SwedeGreen ~ As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword. Therefor the search is on to discover its provenance exactly. It appears in two places Yemen and Saudia. I have loosly termed it a Red Sea variant but Im sure a more accurate description will follow.

Although there are dozens of these in the Muscat Souk there are no scabbards thus the initial thought was of a possible mixed or switched hilt scenario. On revisiting your #1 that now appears not to be true moreover I suggest that this may be a breed all of its own, though, insofar as a date of appearance I urge caution and research. ( I reckon looking at the blade it could be early/mid 19th C) On the other hand the blade is apparently similar or related to others in the Red Sea armoury so I should just say that the debate remains wide open for discussion.

My initial response at #8, however, that this was not Omani but Saudia / Yemeni still stands.

Meanwhile could you please check to see if there are any blade marks on the swords?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams freebooter. Absolutely correct. A lot of estates and plantations in the Far East were owned by Yemeni landlords. In addition see Wikepedia;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaush

Quote "Since the early 19th century, large-scale Hadhramaut migration has established sizable Hadhrami minorities all around the Indian Ocean, in South Asia, Southeast Asia and East Africa including Hyderabad, Bhatkal, Gangolli, Malabar, Sylhet, Java, Sumatra, Malacca and Singapore.

In Hyderabad, the community is known as Chaush and resides mostly in the neighborhood of Barkas.

Several Indonesian ministers, including former Foreign Minister Ali Alatas and former Finance Minister Mari'e Muhammad are of Hadhrami descent, as is the former Prime Minister of East Timor, Mari Al-Kathiri.

Hadhramis have also settled in large numbers along the East African coast, and two former ministers in Kenya, Shariff Nasser and Najib Balala, are of Hadhrami descent". Unquote.

For the linguists Chaush is a Turkish word which probably gave the Arabic version Jeysh (military) and the region in Hyderabad ...Barkas ...comes from the English word Barracks. Typing into search CHAUSH will unveil a part of Indo Arabian history that most people have never heard of but is fascinating reading for those that do..

The movement of Yemenis to Hyderabad was substantial thus what is important is the swordmaking potential link between Hadramaut Yemen and Hyderabad India and to what extent this migration of Arabian people to Hyderabad actually contributed to that art.

Regarding the Piso question it is entirely natural through trade and cross migration that such a weapon co-exists in the Red Sea armoury. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

.......yes but the purpose of this thread being reopened was to try and establish what the covering might have been on the long hilt. Subsequently this has been expanded to try and establish a time line and origin of this particular type. I have my doubts that the fitted blades would establish that, as you well know tha the range of blades (and ages of them) fitted to Middle Eastern swords varies considerably in origin and age.
Lets try not to drown the original subject with likely non related side journeys. :)

Blinkers off !!
 

Salaams. This thread will go in the direction of research and knowledge discussion and debate and thus occasionally something surprising may unfold...

We are not tied to one simple view but are open minded and able to consider freely the oblique angles... thats what the forum is about no? There is more than one approach here so why dont you broaden yours (or not) and look at the far bigger picture... and the solution to your basic question of whether of not the hilt was wrapped in leather, cloth or something else will inevitably evolve... but more importantly the relative place that this weapon has in the family of Red Sea weapons .. will out.

I just wrote to Swedegreen the thread originator and said "As you can see the your thread is current again. What I believe is key to the discussion is your excellent picture of swords and scabbards at # 1 in particular the lower sword with what I would call a simple securing mechanism between the scabbard and the hilt which as part of the scabbard slides inside the long cuff. I think this is indicative of the whole lot being made at once as a deliberate all in one sword".

The original post is key... That's where we need to look...and to research.

You never know it could be important !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thanks Stu! Would be cool if anybody ever visiting the museum could have a look at their info on the piece. Maybe the data will have a riveting tale to tell, along the lines that Gavin suggests! I guess I shouldn't hold my breath for the museum to go online with their collection.. :D

Then maybe you guys could also get a useful pointer as to time-span for this new sword type of yours. :)


All the best, - Thor

IRON; Evil Spirits. Why the hilt would be covered.
 

Salaams ~ Note to Forum. The technique of covering the hilt in leather is multi faceted ..
1. It provides a much sturdier hilt.
2. The anti slip, good grip qualities of leather make it an excellent material.
3. Leather was in plentiful supply from goat, cow, camel and occasionally other tallismanic materials like wolf, hyena and fox.
4. Lastly the habit of covering iron with leather was used to negate the devil/evil link of Iron coming into direct contact with the skin. Iron was seen as attracting evil.

#1 shows how the scabbard was completed in worked leather and it would be easy to imagine that a hilt would be more susceptible to destructive wear thus all that's left is the metalic hilt... in most cases Iron though some with partial other metals in places perhaps the result of a running repair.

The museum plaque probably holds little factual evidence (as usual) Pro active information and detail on Museum exhibits is laughable at best and I would imagine it says something like "Arabian Red Sea swords," however, that is not to write off an aproach on potential information...Anything goes on that quest !

More to the point is the construction of the hilt showing that the style is in line with the technique of the Omani Battle Sword Hilt with Pommel not attached to tang though the two parts of the hilt appear welded unlike the Omani Hilt which is riveted over a wooden insert core. The pommel unlike the Omani Hilt is very crude as are the what look like remnants of quillons which are in fact incorporated into the cuff. Occasionally the cuff has the weird long window like addition which could be to enable a stuck sword to be freed or used in the role of quillons to twist an opponents blade out of his grip. The whole hilt appears as a monumental religious based iconic shape..with a number of potential provenances including African. It could even be a mass produced militia sword.

The full implications need to be examined as it may be a separate as yet unidentified type. Its provenance needs a full airing and any links to other regional variants should be carefully considered.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams All, Note to Forum; I discovered this interesting shot by Michael Blalock in another lead at http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...ons-and-armour at post #3 bringing the question to that of the Wallace collection again. See #14 on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=wallace These swords appear to be of Yemeni pedegree though there appear to be two qualities...viz;

1.The quite basic variety that we have been dealing with which could perhaps be Yemeni Askri(Palace Guard/Militia) weapons and
2.The very highly ornate Wallace collection/ ornate version seen in para 1 above quality.

:shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Note ...To complete my overall view on this style and in reviewing similar blades to the basic project blades at #1 and similar are there relationships also connected to the blade style seen at http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...arabian+swords in the souk.

Naturally there are various solutions, though, it may be some time before a complete analysis presents itself. Until then I would advise the usual open mind and thorough research with the hope that conclusive evidence is presented. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

So we don't have to continually link to other threads, here are the pics of the Wallace Collection sword, with descriptive text.

Salaams All.

Comparing the project sword style at #1 what we appear to be looking at is the same design as shown on

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 See # 11 picture number 12..Scroll down 12 pictures(final picture) and see 3rd from right sword.

This Museum exhibit is in Istanbul so is likely to be "Mamluke" linked which places rather a more important hand on this style. Definitely more research needed on this !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

........this one.....and rotated to show the right way up........the subject sword is now third from left.

The point being that this sword now unfolds as present in at least two museums Istanbul Military and a Yemeni Military exhibit though the more basic forms at Project #1 etc appear as later forms of the same/ similar design. Late 18th -Mid 19th C ? The clear links however with a much earlier style indicate Ottoman, Mamluke and Abassiid roots, potential links to Omani forms both battle and dancing swords and a rethink on the Old Omani Battle Sword in the light of the weapon at Istanbul Military Museum ..and the Forum discussion so far... It is certainly a twisting and turning development. :D

If you look at the form of the sword style of the previous photo number 10 of #11 at the Istanbul Museum http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 you will see how close the blade is to the Mamluke style and where the sword begins to shape up in the relationship to what we are now looking at ... and with an eye on the Wallace type assessed as appearing in the late 1700s as a highly ornate badge of office for an important Persian dignatory and said to be of Cairo manufacture utilizing an Arabized German blade. In unearthing the truth behind the project sword we may also be poised to take on the Wallace supposition of provenance on their exhibit which is very interesting indeed.

In the thread "Kattara for comments" you will also discover that I made a comparison with the Mamluke and the old Omani Battle Sword, however, it may be that the sword I should have also compared was the project sword... as well... In this case a redraw may be required in which an even bigger and more obvious comparison is required between the two clearly similar hilt formations... The Long Metalic Red Sea Sword and The Omani Battle Sword. Both originating in pre Mamluke (Abassiid) and permeating the Ottoman Style and cunningly until now flying under the radar but now on the workbench as a very interesting discussion ... as a Yemeni Variant possibly from the Habaabi region that before about 1920 was Yemen and is now in Saudi Arabia.

As a sideline but equally related is the obvious similarity in long broadsword type between the Omani dancing sword and this Project weapon (weapon as opposed to dancing sword since its a stiff blade) Could it be that the Omani dancing sword evolved from this ... It has a long hilt that could concievably have morphed into what we recognise as the Long Omani Hilt... on both the straight Omani Sayf and curved Kattara.

It poses these broader questions which will now unravel. Bring it on !! :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Note to Library; see post 27, http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=314 for developments in Red Sea swords and the design flow between Abbasiid, Mamluke, Ottoman, Yemeni and Omani variants. :shrug:
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Wrapped Hilt Covering
 

Just came across this pic in my archives while looking for something else. It shows an Omani Battle Sword with what definitely appears to be a wrapped hilt covering rather than a "fitted" one. Unfortunately I can not remember the source of this pic, which was archived in April 2010, but it clearly puts a different (or at least alternative) light on how things were finished in terms of metal hilts.

Salaams kahnjar1 ~There are several ways to wrap a hilt. It can be simply wrapped round and round like the one in your photo or as one piece or woven rather in a zig zag better described as platted wrap. I note that the haphazzard way in which the sword wrapping is presented could mean that this is a random repair thus not an original form of wrap..

Interestingly on the Omani Battle Sword there are 3 holes (2 for rivvets) the top hole near the pommel is for a wrist strap. The strap anchor hole on this sword seems to be covered.

What is also important in your picture is the silver inlay script on the pommel... not on all swords... but it is thought on some perhaps to glorify a particular event/battle, a religious incantation, or to add/display the power and rank of the owner.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Wrist Strap Hole ???????????
 

You say that the "wrist strap hole" of this particular hilt is covered. I note that all three of the refinished hilts you show in your pics, and no doubt done in your workshop, also have the wrist strap hole covered, if indeed there was one there in the first place. The bare hilts you show in various pics you have posted, do not indicate holes either..........
Clarification please.

Clarification ~ No not quite.
If you can see http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 all of the pictures of my Omani Battle Swords have wrist strap holes. The covered hilts that are fully covered havent had a hole bored in the leather as yet...except the centre one which in fact has a cotter pin in the top hole...which was in the original but may have been added by the previous owner. Invariably this top hole is about quarter of an inch from the pommel. Interestingly there is also a cotter pin in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16482 at #9 which is a Mamluke variant similar to the style that I compared the Omani Battle Sword to in http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10455

The hilts are not done in my workshops but are in pretty well natural as found condition with the rust removed...and with the core of wood replaced since the existing ones were rotted out. We used the original rivvets where possible.

The only additions are the leather work. Of course, we take pride in getting the detail right which is why we observe the museum items carefully first, thus, we would never recommend this to amateurs.

We also have a number of swords actually in museums. :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Stupid question time.

There is far too much repitition within this thread and those referred to for me to stay focused.

The long hilted Omani sword, of the type pictured is only a dance sword?

Regards

Gavin

Salaams good point I have just tried to right that but as you can see these paths cross and are at times entwined nevertheless Ive tried to clarify the issue on the other thread...The Omani Battle Sword deals with that sword and Kattara for comment with Omani Sayf and Kattara... Im sure it will all balance out... just keep an eye on everything !! :) ha!

On your question yes its only a dancing sword. An Omani Sayf. Now that one is dealt with in much detail on Kattara for comments.

You will note that this thread is neither but deals partly with the long hilt and the possible influence of what looks like at #1 a Yemeni / Ottoman / Mamluke / Abassiid variant on your Omani swords long hilt. Yours being the Straight Omani Sayf; The Dancing Sword. (See what I mean? slightly confusing) :shrug:

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Thank you Ibrahiim, this is as I thought you indicated. However, I do not agree that these are only dance swords. Yes, they were used in dance and in today’s circles are known as dance swords but this is not as a be all and end all to the sword.

This original untouched example I have presented has a very fine stout and non flexible fighting blade in it, certainly not a dance sword.

I would suggest your post in original TVV Kattara thread in post #6 is a correct way of viewing this sword, fighting, with a shield. I think the W. H. INGRAMS notation in post #18 of the same thread is not it's sole purpose but just a cultural observation of the time, one that has continued today as a matter of ceremony.

I know the chicken and the egg theory was discussed in the same thread about its presence in Africa where I suspect it too was used only for fighting as a trade legacy from the east.

The wonderful photos of Tipu with the same sword type, in my opinion supports these swords where a cultural fighting sword and proudly displayed as such.

The gaps in time from the period of early types with quillons you present through to the early 20th century is too great not to consider these as fighting swords even the flexible ones of old.


Regards

Gavin

Salaams Gavin Last point first ~ The old ones werent flexible... what is notable about the massive gap in time is how a simple technology like a battle Sword stood the vast time test. I suggest that the flexible sword only arrived in about 1744 (the beginning of the al busaiid dynasty) and as a pageantry sword only. I don't altogether disagree with your assessment with some of the dodgey 19th century reports dotted about from authors like Burton etc but Ingrams was firmly planted... He spent years in Zanzibar and new his turf like the back of his hand and later went on to the Hadramaut and did sterling work. Of all the scholarly observers I believe he is one of the finest. He spent decades studying the situation not as a visitor but as a fixture and fitting..
I hope the new layout of each sword having its own thread works better..

Please look again at the Tipu Tip sword... Its a massive curved Kattara.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

Not holding any author current or past at fault as they often have more time and want than most but Ingrams make one small single passge in passing with no other great attention to any detail about the swords he saw or any other reference to the swords from the regions applications in fighting. Because he did not write of fighting which he may not have ben exposed to or didn't want to write about should not be grounds for absolute reasoning that these swords were in the day just dance swords.

By his own admission it reached chaotic frantic levels and it is distinctly possible there were also curved swords being used in the dance fray, possiblely just most mentioned because the straight sword was so common and worn by many that a curved one were and there was overlooked.

Please see my views in your new threads on curved vs straight.

Regards

Gavin