Black Sea Yataghan on ebay

Pitt1999 · 7th October 2022, 06:42 PM

Did anyone here get this piece? I was going for it but I fell asleep right before the auction ended.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/16562041942...mis&media=COPY

Bob A · 8th October 2022, 12:54 AM

So you slept for seven weeks? I'm lucky if I can get seven hours!

werecow · 8th October 2022, 04:13 AM

I check ebay almost every day and I missed it entirely, so I guess I was asleep for quite a while.

Pitt1999 · 8th October 2022, 05:25 AM

Yeah, the auction ended right before my short period of hibernation

. In all seriousness I just forgot about this auction completely and just remembered it today. I figured I would see if any of the forumites nabbed up this sword.

Interested Party · 10th October 2022, 06:00 PM

My question big question is. Is this an "over-cleaned" piece or a more modern production? In particular the stippled decoration of five petaled flowers (a wild rose, or other hawthorn?) and bees seems dubious. For clarification is this a historically appropriate subject and method for the Laz or the artisan who may have made this piece for them? The decoration on the back of the spine is nice and, in my opinion, does not look like the hand that stippled the blade.

I have attached some pictures, so this does not become one of those dead threads that one runs across when searching the archives for an obscure subject only to find that there is no context for the conversation 10 years later.

Jim McDougall · 10th October 2022, 08:57 PM

Thank you for adding the pictures!
This 'form' we now term the Laz Bicagi, and known as the Black Sea yataghan in the research, discussion and often controversial debate over many years here appears to have been one of a broader group of similar weapons mostly from Transcaucasian, Trebizon, Erzerum regions but these were known in the Caucusus as well as I have been told by contacts in Tblisi.
These seem to have pretty esoteric as they were little known in collecting circles in the 90s but became better known in following years.

As far as I have known there have not been more modern versions of these. References I recall seeing in research and discussions say that these do not seem to not have been forms around before late 1700s at earliest, probably more mid 19th c. . It is said (Jacobsen & Triikman, 1941) that by later in the century these were often found in out buildings and largely not in use.

It seems many, perhaps most of these in this recurved form with these features (needle point, forked pommel) have the work in the blade spine, which likely varied per the artisan making the blade. As often the case, varied artisans often completed different work on the blades.

Jacobsen and later Seifert (1962) termed these Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, which illustrates the rather broad distribution of these through transcaucasian regions.

I always thought these most intriguing and unusual and it was pretty exciting when I first got one back in the 90s when they were not well known. After that more began appearing and value dropped, so reproduction unlikely.

werecow · 10th October 2022, 10:06 PM

Assuming it's not literally the same sword, this one (pic 1) looks quite similar. Description on tumblr: "A rare Laz Bichaq, Black Sea area, ca. 1877, from Oriental Arms."

EDIT: And added what seems to be another one (pics 2-6) from that site:

Quote:

This unusual and rare sword is coming out of our private collection. Its origin was a point of debates to many collectors and researchers of bladed weapons. It was considered Caucasian, Kurdish, North African, Turkish, Malayan as well as other origins. It is however most probably coming from North / East Turkey and was found in Caucasian areas as well. It is best known as Black Sea Yatagan . It is charectarized by the deeply re-curving blade and bifurcated pommel. This one has a heavy 25 inches blade, almost ½ inch thick at its base, and forged from laminated steel. The blade is decorated with a typical punched circles and dots design. The grips are horn and the grip strap is brass. Total length 32 inches. Good condition, with only minor pitted spots on the blade. No scabbard. A very unusual find.

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2022, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by werecow

Assuming it's not literally the same sword, this one (pic 1) looks quite similar. Description on tumblr: "A rare Laz Bichaq, Black Sea area, ca. 1877, from Oriental Arms."

EDIT: And added what seems to be another one (pics 2-6) from that site:

There is of course remarkable similarity in a number of these, these are not 'one off'. Artzi's descriptions have always been remarkably accurate and insightful, so very reliable. When Gerhard Seifert described these in 1962 ("Schwert Degen Sabel") he drew a certain comparison to the Kabyle flyssa from Algeria due to the deep bellied blade and needle point but only at applying degree of similarity.

It is odd that the flyssa had similar span of presence, seeming to have begun appearance in Kabylia around early 1800s (first record noted c. 1827) and also seems to have waned after 1870s as far as the form most familiar. Basically while not really connected, both have similarities and both are 19th century forms.

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2022, 02:52 AM

Here are pics of the example I have with purple velveteen scabbard.
The pages from Seifert (1962)
The plate from "A Magyar Faji Vandor", J. Vichy. Budapest, 1897
As noted in "Origins of the Shashka" (Jacobsen & Triikman, 1941)
One of these variations with closer cleft pommel rather than 'horned', and pics of one with the distinct style scabbard.

7th October 2022, 06:42 PM	#1
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 107	Black Sea Yataghan on ebay Did anyone here get this piece? I was going for it but I fell asleep right before the auction ended. https://www.ebay.com/itm/16562041942...mis&media=COPY

10th October 2022, 06:00 PM	#5
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 476	My question big question is. Is this an "over-cleaned" piece or a more modern production? In particular the stippled decoration of five petaled flowers (a wild rose, or other hawthorn?) and bees seems dubious. For clarification is this a historically appropriate subject and method for the Laz or the artisan who may have made this piece for them? The decoration on the back of the spine is nice and, in my opinion, does not look like the hand that stippled the blade. I have attached some pictures, so this does not become one of those dead threads that one runs across when searching the archives for an obscure subject only to find that there is no context for the conversation 10 years later. Attached Images

10th October 2022, 08:57 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Thank you for adding the pictures! This 'form' we now term the Laz Bicagi, and known as the Black Sea yataghan in the research, discussion and often controversial debate over many years here appears to have been one of a broader group of similar weapons mostly from Transcaucasian, Trebizon, Erzerum regions but these were known in the Caucusus as well as I have been told by contacts in Tblisi. These seem to have pretty esoteric as they were little known in collecting circles in the 90s but became better known in following years. As far as I have known there have not been more modern versions of these. References I recall seeing in research and discussions say that these do not seem to not have been forms around before late 1700s at earliest, probably more mid 19th c. . It is said (Jacobsen & Triikman, 1941) that by later in the century these were often found in out buildings and largely not in use. It seems many, perhaps most of these in this recurved form with these features (needle point, forked pommel) have the work in the blade spine, which likely varied per the artisan making the blade. As often the case, varied artisans often completed different work on the blades. Jacobsen and later Seifert (1962) termed these Kurdish-Armenian yataghans, which illustrates the rather broad distribution of these through transcaucasian regions. I always thought these most intriguing and unusual and it was pretty exciting when I first got one back in the 90s when they were not well known. After that more began appearing and value dropped, so reproduction unlikely. Last edited by Jim McDougall; 11th October 2022 at 02:54 AM.

11th October 2022, 02:52 AM	#9
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,951	Here are pics of the example I have with purple velveteen scabbard. The pages from Seifert (1962) The plate from "A Magyar Faji Vandor", J. Vichy. Budapest, 1897 As noted in "Origins of the Shashka" (Jacobsen & Triikman, 1941) One of these variations with closer cleft pommel rather than 'horned', and pics of one with the distinct style scabbard. Attached Images

8th October 2022, 12:54 AM	#2
Bob A Member Join Date: Feb 2014 Posts: 427	So you slept for seven weeks? I'm lucky if I can get seven hours!

8th October 2022, 04:13 AM	#3
werecow Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Location: Leiden, NL Posts: 499	I check ebay almost every day and I missed it entirely, so I guess I was asleep for quite a while.

8th October 2022, 05:25 AM	#4
Pitt1999 Member Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 107	Yeah, the auction ended right before my short period of hibernation . In all seriousness I just forgot about this auction completely and just remembered it today. I figured I would see if any of the forumites nabbed up this sword.