Shamshir for comment

Congoblades · 4th December 2014, 04:49 PM

After a google search I presume it is a shamshir and turkish

The cross-guard is different than most I see on the web.
96 cm long.
I would appreciate your comments about the origin and age.
The cross-guard is loose, is there a way to fix it?

Oliver Pinchot · 4th December 2014, 05:37 PM

It's hard to say where this sword is actually from because it's a combination of parts. The blade is good Caucasian work, probably made in Tbilisi c. 1850. The guard is Persian, and considerably earlier; this type with recurved quillons is rare. The grips are more or less recent. It was probably assembled for use in the early 20th century.

Kubur · 4th December 2014, 06:40 PM

Dear Oliver,
Are you sure that the blade is Caucasian?
I have a Persian Qadara with the same stamps...
The blade looks Persian for me.
Regards
Kubur

Congoblades · 4th December 2014, 07:58 PM

Found this picture on the net, similar guard.

shamshir-nader-shah-afsharid-dr-khorasani

kronckew · 4th December 2014, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Congoblades

The cross-guard is loose, is there a way to fix it?

might be due to shrinkage of the wood grip scales. you could try soaking the hilt in linseed oil to swell it a bit, as long as the scales are not also attached with an oil soluble glue; that might however let you disassemble the hilt easier & tighten it back on cleaning and re-assembling it. injecting a modern filler like epoxy steel into the gap is likely to be frowned on & reduce it's value. a big blob of goop like the last photo would also not be a good idea. some middle eastern swords have that area wound with wire, which might be something to try first. it at least will not be a permanent repair that might lessen the item's value.

adding a pin thru the guard like that thru gold koftgari is also not a good career move. i do note in my photo above there was some sort of glue, possibly cutler's cement under the wire which came thru a bit. might even be silver solder. not my weapon.

this one shows the outline of the guard grip languet under the wire a bit better.

i recall someone posted instructions on reconstructing a turkish hilt here somewhere that might help.

Congoblades · 4th December 2014, 09:30 PM

Thanks. The wire is probably the safest thing to do. Simple and it will keep the guard at his place. Nice.

Oliver Pinchot · 5th December 2014, 07:31 PM

Kubur, why not post a pic of your blade so we can compare them.
Congoblades, the original treatment, and also the most conscientious form of restoration, would be to fill the aperture between the guard and blade with a water-soluble paste or putty.

Kubur · 5th December 2014, 07:42 PM

Voila
Very similar...
Best,

ariel · 6th December 2014, 03:42 AM

South Caucasian Qaddara, they migrated to Iran to be used in the Ashura ceremony.

estcrh · 6th December 2014, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

South Caucasian Qaddara, they migrated to Iran to be used in the Ashura ceremony.

I have seen this particular type being described as a Persian infantry sword, seems to nice for Ashura.

Kubur · 6th December 2014, 01:10 PM

I agree with Escrtch...
Too nice and too heavy also
or you do ashura one time only...
I'm fine with Persian infantry sword like the French briquet
May be the blades were produced in South Caucasus, I have no idea about that...

Kubur · 6th December 2014, 01:14 PM

Plus the coins on the rivets of the grip are Qajar
The scabbard is Qajar...what else...
We need an expert for the stamps on the blade...

Congoblades · 6th December 2014, 02:21 PM

Have also this one, similar fullers as the sword. Will probably be of the same region. The decoration on the tip of the sheath is a bit strange.

Looks more like german or austrian??

Kubur · 6th December 2014, 04:10 PM

The lion with the sword or the gazelle on your scabbard are pure Persian motives.

For me, your sword is Persian from A to Z.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th December 2014, 01:07 AM

Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly.

Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work.

Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop.

ariel · 7th December 2014, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Kubur, why not post a pic of your blade so we can compare them.
Congoblades, the original treatment, and also the most conscientious form of restoration, would be to fill the aperture between the guard and blade with a water-soluble paste or putty.

Oliver,
Can you recommend a particular brand?

estcrh · 7th December 2014, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oliver Pinchot

Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly.

Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work.

Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop.

Great information Oliver. here is a link to a PDf copy which I think is to the book you referenced, unfortunately it is not in English.

EG Astvatsaturyan. "Weapons of peoples of the Caucasus"
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...80642063,d.aWw

Kubur · 7th December 2014, 03:31 PM

Thank you very much Oliver
Now another point, could you explain the fact that some qaddara with the blades that you described are covered with golden inscriptions, farsi as well.
Do you think that they did the inscriptions and the decoration on the blades later??? Some are published in the book of Khorasani, others are visible on line.

Oliver Pinchot · 7th December 2014, 07:17 PM

Yes of course, chiseled panels, inscriptions and koftgari could be, and often were, done at virtually any time after the blade was finished. Note that these techniques are typically found on areas of the blade which are subject to less hardening in the heat-treating process.

Ariel, what was used in Persia in period was a combination of borax and other constituents, applied in a paste and allowed to harden. I know a couple of restorers have mentioned that patching plaster, the sort you mix with water, is effective. I imagine it's available at any hardware store. Bear in mind that while this pretty well duplicates the color and texture of the original when dry, it's only intended to stabilize the guard, not to make the sword combat-ready... ;0)

4th December 2014, 04:49 PM	#1
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Shamshir for comment After a google search I presume it is a shamshir and turkish The cross-guard is different than most I see on the web. 96 cm long. I would appreciate your comments about the origin and age. The cross-guard is loose, is there a way to fix it? Attached Images

4th December 2014, 05:37 PM	#2
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	It's hard to say where this sword is actually from because it's a combination of parts. The blade is good Caucasian work, probably made in Tbilisi c. 1850. The guard is Persian, and considerably earlier; this type with recurved quillons is rare. The grips are more or less recent. It was probably assembled for use in the early 20th century. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 4th December 2014 at 06:02 PM.

4th December 2014, 07:58 PM	#4
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Found this picture on the net, similar guard. shamshir-nader-shah-afsharid-dr-khorasani Attached Images

5th December 2014, 07:31 PM	#7
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Kubur, why not post a pic of your blade so we can compare them. Congoblades, the original treatment, and also the most conscientious form of restoration, would be to fill the aperture between the guard and blade with a water-soluble paste or putty. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 6th December 2014 at 12:35 AM.

5th December 2014, 07:42 PM	#8
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Voila Very similar... Best, Attached Images

4th December 2014, 06:40 PM	#3
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Dear Oliver, Are you sure that the blade is Caucasian? I have a Persian Qadara with the same stamps... The blade looks Persian for me. Regards Kubur

4th December 2014, 09:30 PM	#6
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Thanks. The wire is probably the safest thing to do. Simple and it will keep the guard at his place. Nice.

6th December 2014, 03:42 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	South Caucasian Qaddara, they migrated to Iran to be used in the Ashura ceremony.

6th December 2014, 01:10 PM	#11
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	I agree with Escrtch... Too nice and too heavy also or you do ashura one time only... I'm fine with Persian infantry sword like the French briquet May be the blades were produced in South Caucasus, I have no idea about that...

6th December 2014, 01:14 PM	#12
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Plus the coins on the rivets of the grip are Qajar The scabbard is Qajar...what else... We need an expert for the stamps on the blade...

6th December 2014, 02:21 PM	#13
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Have also this one, similar fullers as the sword. Will probably be of the same region. The decoration on the tip of the sheath is a bit strange. Looks more like german or austrian?? Attached Images

6th December 2014, 04:10 PM	#14
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	The lion with the sword or the gazelle on your scabbard are pure Persian motives. For me, your sword is Persian from A to Z.

7th December 2014, 01:07 AM	#15
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Kubur, for a sound attribution for this type of blade, see Astvatsaturian, Oruzhiye Narodov Kavkaza (Atlant, 2004-- this is the most recent, expanded edition) p. 334. Dr. Astvatsaturian discusses the type but also shows examples signed with stamps, with Arabic as well as Armenian signatures, interestingly. Let's assume for a moment, that there was no established documentation. When you look at a weapon such as this, which is generally mounted with Persian coins on the grips, and which shows Persian motifs on the scabbard mounts (provided it has them) it is reasonable to assume the blade is likewise Persian. First, however, consider the overall form of the weapon-- it is Caucasian, not Persian. Then, look at commonalities-- even if you have never before seen a Georgian saber with a blade of this type, have you seen a similar blade which would bear out a Persian attribution? I.e., straight, broad, single-edged, acutely-pointed, struck with a stamp, and forged with complex, asymmetrical fullering? The form, wherever it may have been made, does not fit into the set of characteristics which identify Persian work. Without doubt, there are weapons of general "kindjal" form which were made entirely in Northern Persia; the blades of those weapons, however, are either distinct from these, or are copies with notable differences. The blades under discussion here were exported in large numbers from the Caucasus, together with saber blades of many forms, to Persia, the Arabian Peninsula, and Africa. See Elgood, The Arms and Armour of Arabia (Scolar, 1994) p. 22-25 for a discussion of hussar-style blades and images of a blade which any of us would be inclined to attribute to a Persian workshop. Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 7th December 2014 at 01:49 AM.

7th December 2014, 03:31 PM	#18
Kubur Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 2,145	Thank you very much Oliver Now another point, could you explain the fact that some qaddara with the blades that you described are covered with golden inscriptions, farsi as well. Do you think that they did the inscriptions and the decoration on the blades later??? Some are published in the book of Khorasani, others are visible on line.

7th December 2014, 07:17 PM	#19
Oliver Pinchot Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Posts: 457	Yes of course, chiseled panels, inscriptions and koftgari could be, and often were, done at virtually any time after the blade was finished. Note that these techniques are typically found on areas of the blade which are subject to less hardening in the heat-treating process. Ariel, what was used in Persia in period was a combination of borax and other constituents, applied in a paste and allowed to harden. I know a couple of restorers have mentioned that patching plaster, the sort you mix with water, is effective. I imagine it's available at any hardware store. Bear in mind that while this pretty well duplicates the color and texture of the original when dry, it's only intended to stabilize the guard, not to make the sword combat-ready... ;0) Last edited by Oliver Pinchot; 7th December 2014 at 07:28 PM.