Another cup hilt rapier for id

[Cerjak]

A second cup hilt .
Marks not decipherable
O.L. 111 cm ; blade L. 92 cm; blade width at hilt 3.8 cm
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak

[mariusgmioc]

I am not very knowledgeable on this subject but to me it looks like you have a 17th century Spanish rapier, military grade (since the blade is wider and stronger). The blade was probably a shortened a little.

Beautiful piece.

Can you post better pictures of the inscription on the blade?

[fernando]

Some sources pretend that military versions have their knuckle guards secured to the pommel, but ...



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[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I am not very knowledgeable on this subject but to me it looks like you have a 17th century Spanish rapier, military grade (since the blade is wider and stronger). The blade was probably a shortened a little.

Beautiful piece.

Can you post better pictures of the inscription on the blade?

I will post extra pictures later ASAP .
"The blade was probably a shortened a little." I don't think and also there is no sign who could confirm this possibility .
What make you think that it could be the case ?
best
CERJAK

[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by Cerjak

I will post extra pictures later ASAP .
"The blade was probably a shortened a little." I don't think and also there is no sign who could confirm this possibility .
What make you think that it could be the case ?
best
CERJAK

I think the average blade length of this type of rapiers normally exceeded 100 cm (sometimes by as much as 30 cm, but probably most of them were in range of 105-115 cm). So 92 cm is rather short for a Rapier.

But as I said before, I am definitely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

[Jim McDougall]

Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords.

It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times.

Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms.

I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths.

The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc
I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by mariusgmioc

I think the average blade length of this type of rapiers normally exceeded 100 cm (sometimes by as much as 30 cm, but probably most of them were in range of 105-115 cm). So 92 cm is rather short for a Rapier.
But as I said before, I am definitely not very knowledgeable on the subject.

I would give it as a fact that one should hesitate in determining the blade length of these swords... that not necessarily rapiers; at least in practical terms, once those beat whatever written in books.
The six examples in my little collection vary from 69 to 98 cm.(69-80-82-83-86-98).
... And the twelve units of a collection catalogued by someone from whom i have acquired a couple of mine, vary from 81 to 134 cm. (81-83-88-89-89-93-98-100-103-104-124-132). To be taken into account that the two largest ones are not to be considered as 'normal'; the so called 'off the mark', prohibited by the period authorities ... and very rare to find out there.
We may assume that, when comes to practice, rather than following a standard length, blades often followed owners conveniences, when they didn't have an average stature: short for a rather short owner, large for a rather tall one. Whether those for the shorties are commissioned to their size or shortened after acquisition, is another issue.
And then, i would guess, come the ones that are shortened for different reasons, like having been broken by accident.
I hope not to be taken too seriously, as i am no expert either .

PS

And i would like to further point out that, the one i have with the widest blade, is the shortest one.


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[mariusgmioc]

Originally Posted by fernando

I would give it as a fact that one should hesitate in determining the blade length of these swords... that not necessarily rapiers; at least in practical terms, once those beat whatever written in books.
The six examples in my little collection vary from 69 to 98 cm.(69-80-82-83-86-98).
... And the twelve units of a collection catalogued by someone from whom i have acquired a couple of mine, vary from 81 to 134 cm. (81-83-88-89-89-93-98-100-103-104-124-132). To be taken into account that the two largest ones are not to be considered as 'normal'; the so called 'off the mark', prohibited by the period authorities ... and very rare to find out there.
We may assume that, when comes to practice, rather than following a standard length, blades often followed owners conveniences, when they didn't have an average stature: short for a rather short owner, large for a rather tall one. Whether those for the shorties are commissioned to their size or shortened after acquisition, is another issue.
And then, i would guess, come the ones that are shortened for different reasons, like having been broken by accident.
I hope not to be taken too seriously, as i am no expert either .

PS

And i would like to further point out that, the one i have with the widest blade, is the shortest one.


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Very interesting information! Thank you very much!

In the view of your information, I think I was wrong assuming it was shortened. And indeed, looking at its overall size and shape, it appears to be well proportioned with a beautifully shaped tip, probably original.

Also it seems logical that the broader the blade the shorter it should be as otherwise would become very difficult to handle because of its weight.

[Cerjak]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Away from references at the moment, but these wider blades (actually similar to schiavona blades with this central fuller) were military associated as 'arming' swords and of latter 17th c. It seems these followed traditional cuphilt fashion for a time, but as Fernando notes, the knuckleguard became screwed to the pommel later as in the 'bilbo' type swords.

It seems that the thumbguard or ring on this reflects that military feature which was often present on military swords of Continental Europe in these times.

Perhaps "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America" might have something on these forms.

I have often wondered if the German smiths who relocated to Spain might have added these continental features to these kinds of swords. It seems that several German makers were known there but there may have been others outside the parameters of recorded smiths.

The 'ship' marking seems familiar, need to check Bezdek, Kinman, etc
I know it is not Spanish, but I believe German.

Hi Jim

I have seen nothing on "Spanish Military Weapons in Colonial America"
also I have try to decipher the the blade marks and it seems that it could be soligen.
Best

Jean-Luc

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Jean Luc,
After looking in the Spanish military Weapons in Colonial America there is nothing there which shows or mentions such a ring in the guard of cup hilt rapiers. My suggestion of German influence as to that feature resembling a 'thumb ring' as on many German and European military sword hilts was a tenacious notion at best, and really does not seem to be the case.
It seems almost a rudimentary finger guard as in a pas d'ane of the developing small swords of latter 17th into 18th.

It is curious that even Norman, in "The Rapier and Small Sword" does not address this hilt form, and Fernando's note on their being termed 'margarida' is most valuable (and duly noted) as he has access to key resources with this specialized information.

Also well noted are his notes on the remarkable spectrum of blade lengths on rapier type swords, as they were typically privately commissioned and fashioned according to individual requirements. Officers often had hilts fitted with heavier combat suitable blades, but following the traditional hilt styles which Spain deeply cherished.

The blade seems of course Solingen, and more on the inscription would be helpful.

[fernando]

Hi Jean-Luc,
In order to better distinguish your two threads on cup hilted swords, i have renamed the later one to Another culpit rapier for id.
Salutations .

[fernando]

What if the thumb ring was a later addition ?

[Philip]

On the whole, the hilt appears to be a provincial version of the typical Hispano-Italian cup hilt that was at the height of popularity in the second half of the 17th cent. The cup itself can have either a circular or scalloped (as in the case of this specimen) rim. Common for this style is the bun-shaped pommel and the flaring, flattened terminus of the knucklebow which never actually joins the pommel. Numerous up-market examples of the genre can be seen in Boccia and Coelho, ARMI BIANCHE ITALIANE (1975). Ewart Oakeshott, EUROPEAN WEAPONS AND ARMOUR FROM THE RENAISSANCE TO THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION (1980 ed.) states that the shallower, hemispherical cups are Spanish and the deeper ones Italian, but this is not supported in other publications or in the identification of a considerable number of both types in the Wallace Collection. The thumb ring on the example in this post seems to be an anomaly, based on the specimens I've handled and have recently seen up close in a recent visit to the Wallace. The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts, even those with solid as opposed to openwork cups. One thing that comes to mind in looking at this piece is the unusually wide blade for the genre. It is not a true rapier blade profile, and I've not seen it on any published example or in my experience. This, and the presence of the thumb ring, leads me to suppose that this is a remounted piece, a composite or modification. Fernando may well be onto something here...

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

...The one thing that the posted specimen seems to lack is the "guarda-polvo" , a supplemental reinforcing plate at the bottom of the cup which is the norm on all cup hilts ...

Interesting perspective, Philip. In my limited experience, i realized that, the "guarda pó" as well as the "quebra pontas", appear to be one of the norms, but not the general norm.

[Jim McDougall]

I am glad to see that in this elucidation you agree that this may well be a colonial (provincial) specimen Philip, and that it is certainly an anomaly as far as the curious thumb guard. As noted, the absence of guardapolvo is pretty much consistent in the ' colonial' or 'Caribbean' examples of these cup hilts.

One thing with the colonial versions of cup hilt is that the heavier blades were due to the fact that these were 'arming' swords, rather than the fashionable civilian rapiers in most cases. Perhaps the shorter blade was for the reason that these were most often worn by foot troops' officers. In the colonies' northern frontiers including the American Southwest, the prevalent weapon was the lance, though the espada ancha, was used mostly as a machete as well as secondary weapon.

The notion of being remounted as well as refurbished with requested features such as this thumb ring could have been quite understandable with the innovative blacksmiths of these regions.

[Philip]

Jim, I would imagine that these bilbos outfitted for colonial service were also issued to garrisons in tropical areas where troops had to venture into rainforests, or sail up creeks in canoes and small boats. I can see the value of a more compact sword than a full-length rapier, not to mention one with a blade that has at least some cutting ability and enough mass to parry a native war club. The cup hilt itself presents issues as re convenient portability. Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee. Besides that, the scabbards are simply too fragile -- I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived, and imagine a stiff leather tube, tapering down to a skinny conical metal tip, that hugs the blade closely with no internal liner or stiffener (such as a wood or metal core) to reinforce it once the sword is out. No wonder that only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Philip

... Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee...

Absolutely. Daehnardt also pointed out in a conversation the uncomfortable volume of large cup bowls when worn at the belt, mentioning that infantry troops favoured smaller ones.
I also fully understand the convenience of compact blades in battle. My last acquisition in this area represents a good example of such marriage; certainly not a colonial specimen but still ... with a 11 cms. bowl and 18 cms. quillons; a blade 43 m/m. wide and a length of 69 cms.

Originally Posted by Philip

... I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived ...only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

Ah, what an amazing ahievement, Philip; please allow me to feel envious.


.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Philip

Jim, I would imagine that these bilbos outfitted for colonial service were also issued to garrisons in tropical areas where troops had to venture into rainforests, or sail up creeks in canoes and small boats. I can see the value of a more compact sword than a full-length rapier, not to mention one with a blade that has at least some cutting ability and enough mass to parry a native war club. The cup hilt itself presents issues as re convenient portability. Oakeshott rightly points out that this hilt, though an extremely efficient hand protector, is bulky when worn at the belt, and that very long, thrust-only blades aren't practical in a battle melee. Besides that, the scabbards are simply too fragile -- I have a Milanese cuphilt whose period sheath has survived, and imagine a stiff leather tube, tapering down to a skinny conical metal tip, that hugs the blade closely with no internal liner or stiffener (such as a wood or metal core) to reinforce it once the sword is out. No wonder that only a miniscule number of rapiers on the market and in collections have intact sheaths.

Very well noted Philip, and indeed the case for shorter and more effectively proportioned swords seems as you say, well represented in the southern areas of America (Louisiana, Florida etc) and the 'Caribbean'hilt (as termed by Peterson) did have shorter, stout blades.

Just as some of my own observations which I add for comment more for general readership here, and are details which are of course well known by you, I would additionally suggest;

A true rapier blade, thin and typically long, would be effectively useless in combat situations where high impact, and wildly variable circumstances would probably break it almost immediately. These were suited only for one on one more controlled interaction in fencing and dueling.

The large cup hilt or any heavily constructed hilt would be most inconvenient worn at the waist through a sash and these kinds of annoyances would likely have been attended to with less obtrusive carry methods. It seems like the scabbard carry configuration with such rapiers typically had the hilt outward and forward toward more horizontal plane.

On another note regarding hilt size outside rapiers, the British heavy cavalry M1796 sword with the heavy full disc guard was eventually regarded as a nuisance as the disc reportedly chafed uniforms. The remedy was to cut down the inner side of the disc. This seems odd as these swords were usually worn with dramatically long straps in the flamboyant Napoleonic hussar convention of almost, if not actually , dragging the ground (hence the term 'drag' on the surround on the chape of the scabbard).

The scabbard you have is an outstanding anomaly, as rapier scabbards in any case seem to have been fragile affairs which seldom survived through time while their steel and iron occupants of course did.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

...The large cup hilt or any heavily constructed hilt would be most inconvenient worn at the waist through a sash and these kinds of annoyances would likely have been attended to with less obtrusive carry methods. It seems like the scabbard carry configuration with such rapiers typically had the hilt outward and forward toward more horizontal plane

.
So true Jim, so true. Such Tahlis (Portuguese talins) were a solution also used in other cultures in different periods and variable designs. But it seems as those alone, based to suspend the sword in a balanced manner, appaently did not solve the problem of the large guard 'harassment' ... be them bowl or disc shaped, as you well mention the M1796 problem; adding that, in most cases, the owner would have to lay his hand on the hilt to afford such (sort of) horizontal position.
Besides, being these suspension devices an extra expenditure, would have their used being extended to modest owners and basic soldiers ?
Attached a brief visit to these suspension variants, from A.V. B. Norman to portraits of Portuguese Kings, passing by blogs and movie stars, a digestive way to look at this issue.


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[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando! That's exactly what I was thinking of!
Is the scene shown from "Alatriste"? Fantastic movie!

[fernando]

Yes Jim. Great movie ... specially in the weapons area .