Any Info On This Mystery Spanish-made Jambiya???

CharlesS · 5th June 2008, 02:14 AM

Just curious if anybody knows anything about this oddity??

I am guessing Spanish made for Morocco.....??? Note the scabbard rings for a baldric.

It's about 12 in. overall. The hilt and scabbard are iron extensively covered in gold work, but I do not think it is as much koftgari as it is "printed" on, but is real gold and you can feel it raised compared to the surface. Note the incredible intricacy of the gold work, and especially the script.....can anybody make out any of it???

The blade is very sharp, but of poor quality. It is pressed I believe. It is decorated with floral panels with the recessed areas being blued.

Its a lovely thing to look at, but I am curious about why it was made. I am assuming it has much of the "looks and little substance" of a mid range koumaya, but would love any input.

Chris Evans · 5th June 2008, 03:47 AM

CharlesS,

This is just another example of the direction that what remained of Spain's cutlery industry took once urbanization and changing lifestyles rendered the use of knives obsolete.

Based on circumstantial evidence and whilst studying the history of the navaja, I formed the view that from the last quarter of the 19th century onwards, the Iberian cutlers increasingly catered to the purveyors of souvenirs and the nouveau riche that, emulating the establishment, wanted to decorate their mansions with weaponry that suggested a distinguished and ancient martial ancestry.

The sheer volume of highly decorated but cheaply made navajas, daggers, knives and swords that had no conceivable use produced support this view, as does the observation that other cutlery and armament centres in Europe engaged in a similar trade, albeit of much better quality.

On the plus side, yours is of far better quality that the stuff they were producing after the war and is a collectable.

Cheers
Chris

CharlesS · 5th June 2008, 05:04 AM

Interesting observation Chris...and thanks.

I was not aware of this trend coming from Spain, but do know there was an entire market in India geared to suit the British "collector" and what was called "the den market'....in other words good looking things of little fighting value or quality, but great decorators....same idea.

Chris Evans · 5th June 2008, 05:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CharlesS

Interesting observation Chris...and thanks.

I was not aware of this trend coming from Spain, but do know there was an entire market in India geared to suit the British "collector" and what was called "the den market'....in other words good looking things of little fighting value or quality, but great decorators....same idea.

Yes exactly. And some of the stuff produced in other parts of Europe was so good that it can easily fool someone who is not an expert. I have seen 19thc cntry made swords and armour, rapiers and LH daggers that looked absolutely authentic.

There is a very nice such Spanish dagger up for auction at the moment.

Cheers
Chris

Marc · 5th June 2008, 01:28 PM

At that time, the government-run cutlery factory in Toledo, which provided all the blades for the Spanish Army needs, plus some exports, had also a product line of high-quality "reproductions" of historical weapons. Some of them were, among other things, characterized by the abundant use of damascening and bluing in their decoration. The Toledo damascening was (and still is) of very good quality, and a well established industry by itself.
This is a perfect example of such production, and the date, 1903, is perfectly consistent with it. They are considered "art works", and although very probably the blades are made to the best of the abilities of the factory cutlers (which was quite high), they are not really supposed to be ever used. I've seen many of those "luxury items", although my experience is more abundant in "reproductions" (let's say "artistically interpreted") of Spanish 17th c. left hand daggers, as well as hunting knives and plug bayonets.
This one seems to be in quite a good state of conservation, also.

Chris Evans · 6th June 2008, 02:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

At that time, the government-run cutlery factory in Toledo, which provided all the blades for the Spanish Army needs, plus some exports, had also a product line of high-quality "reproductions" of historical weapons. Some of them were, among other things, characterized by the abundant use of damascening and bluing in their decoration. The Toledo damascening was (and still is) of very good quality, and a well established industry by itself.
This is a perfect example of such production, and the date, 1903, is perfectly consistent with it. They are considered "art works", and although very probably the blades are made to the best of the abilities of the factory cutlers (which was quite high), they are not really supposed to be ever used. I've seen many of those "luxury items", although my experience is more abundant in "reproductions" (let's say "artistically interpreted") of Spanish 17th c. left hand daggers, as well as hunting knives and plug bayonets.
This one seems to be in quite a good state of conservation, also. conservated, by the

Marc,

Wonderful information - Thank you.

Do you know if they made any suits of armour?

Cheers
Chris

CharlesS · 6th June 2008, 03:37 AM

Ditto...great info, and thanks!!

Marc · 6th June 2008, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Do you know if they made any suits of armour?

Weeeell... technically... kinda. I mean, I'm not aware of any armour suit from that period wearing the mark of the Factory, although they surely had the technical capability to make them. Also, in the period catalogues and price lists from the Factory that I've been able to take a look at, I don't remember seeing any armour suit announced. On the other hand, there ARE decorative armours from that time, some of them very probably produced by any of the many small workshops that worked for the factory as contracts. But their quality, as reproduction suits of armour go, was usually quite low.

Chris Evans · 6th June 2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

Weeeell... technically... kinda. I mean, I'm not aware of any armour suit from that period wearing the mark of the Factory, although they surely had the technical capability to make them. Also, in the period catalogues and price lists from the Factory that I've been able to take a look at, I don't remember seeing any armour suit announced. On the other hand, there ARE decorative armours from that time, some of them very probably produced by any of the many small workshops that worked for the factory as contracts. But their quality, as reproduction suits of armour go, was usually quite low.

Marc,

I imagine that many armament factories must have had the capacity to make armour because cuirases and elaborate helmets were still worn by cavary right to the end of the 19th cntry - Anyway, I asked because some years ago in Buenos Aires, I saw a magnificent repro full harness and the owner thought that it may have been made in Spain in the late 1800s, but wasn't sure.

If you still have access to those catalogues, any chance of scanning them in?

Cheers
Chris

Marc · 13th June 2008, 12:59 PM

Yes, but the reproduction of an antique set of armour needs more than just the functional capacity to make it, and a lot of artisan handwork is unavoidably involved in its production. A lot of the 19th -early 20th c. production of antique armour is made using essentially the same tools that were used in the 14-16th c. It's just the lack of familiarity with the details of the product what shows painfully to the trained eye, and still, some of the reproductions were nearly impossible to distinguish from originals. On this regard, the products of the Munich dealer Ernst Schmidt, an antique dealer and provider of reproduction antique weaponry is often quoted. The pieces coming off his workshop were very well able to stand by themselves for what they were, but with the more elaborated work, specially regarding armour, when compared with the originals the difference was pretty obvious.

On the other hand, some work was extremely close to the originals. Just take a look a the pair of gauntlets below (author unknown). The picture doesn't make them justice, they are exquisite. They were auctioned recently and I was able to examine them up close. Wouldn't they had been a copy of the pair of gauntlets belonging to the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I, held in the Royal Armoury in Madrid, I don't think anyone but the best of experts would had be able to tell them for reproductions based only in the quality of the workmanship.
In short, lousy armour was done everywhere, and kept being done until today, but excellent, quality work was also done in many places, although a lot less in numbers... also as today.

5th June 2008, 02:14 AM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Any Info On This Mystery Spanish-made Jambiya??? Just curious if anybody knows anything about this oddity?? I am guessing Spanish made for Morocco.....??? Note the scabbard rings for a baldric. It's about 12 in. overall. The hilt and scabbard are iron extensively covered in gold work, but I do not think it is as much koftgari as it is "printed" on, but is real gold and you can feel it raised compared to the surface. Note the incredible intricacy of the gold work, and especially the script.....can anybody make out any of it??? The blade is very sharp, but of poor quality. It is pressed I believe. It is decorated with floral panels with the recessed areas being blued. Its a lovely thing to look at, but I am curious about why it was made. I am assuming it has much of the "looks and little substance" of a mid range koumaya, but would love any input. Attached Images

5th June 2008, 03:47 AM	#2
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 682	CharlesS, This is just another example of the direction that what remained of Spain's cutlery industry took once urbanization and changing lifestyles rendered the use of knives obsolete. Based on circumstantial evidence and whilst studying the history of the navaja, I formed the view that from the last quarter of the 19th century onwards, the Iberian cutlers increasingly catered to the purveyors of souvenirs and the nouveau riche that, emulating the establishment, wanted to decorate their mansions with weaponry that suggested a distinguished and ancient martial ancestry. The sheer volume of highly decorated but cheaply made navajas, daggers, knives and swords that had no conceivable use produced support this view, as does the observation that other cutlery and armament centres in Europe engaged in a similar trade, albeit of much better quality. On the plus side, yours is of far better quality that the stuff they were producing after the war and is a collectable. Cheers Chris Last edited by Chris Evans; 5th June 2008 at 04:13 AM.

5th June 2008, 01:28 PM	#5
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	At that time, the government-run cutlery factory in Toledo, which provided all the blades for the Spanish Army needs, plus some exports, had also a product line of high-quality "reproductions" of historical weapons. Some of them were, among other things, characterized by the abundant use of damascening and bluing in their decoration. The Toledo damascening was (and still is) of very good quality, and a well established industry by itself. This is a perfect example of such production, and the date, 1903, is perfectly consistent with it. They are considered "art works", and although very probably the blades are made to the best of the abilities of the factory cutlers (which was quite high), they are not really supposed to be ever used. I've seen many of those "luxury items", although my experience is more abundant in "reproductions" (let's say "artistically interpreted") of Spanish 17th c. left hand daggers, as well as hunting knives and plug bayonets. This one seems to be in quite a good state of conservation, also. Last edited by Marc; 6th June 2008 at 09:55 AM.

13th June 2008, 12:59 PM	#10
Marc Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Madrid / Barcelona Posts: 256	Yes, but the reproduction of an antique set of armour needs more than just the functional capacity to make it, and a lot of artisan handwork is unavoidably involved in its production. A lot of the 19th -early 20th c. production of antique armour is made using essentially the same tools that were used in the 14-16th c. It's just the lack of familiarity with the details of the product what shows painfully to the trained eye, and still, some of the reproductions were nearly impossible to distinguish from originals. On this regard, the products of the Munich dealer Ernst Schmidt, an antique dealer and provider of reproduction antique weaponry is often quoted. The pieces coming off his workshop were very well able to stand by themselves for what they were, but with the more elaborated work, specially regarding armour, when compared with the originals the difference was pretty obvious. On the other hand, some work was extremely close to the originals. Just take a look a the pair of gauntlets below (author unknown). The picture doesn't make them justice, they are exquisite. They were auctioned recently and I was able to examine them up close. Wouldn't they had been a copy of the pair of gauntlets belonging to the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I, held in the Royal Armoury in Madrid, I don't think anyone but the best of experts would had be able to tell them for reproductions based only in the quality of the workmanship. In short, lousy armour was done everywhere, and kept being done until today, but excellent, quality work was also done in many places, although a lot less in numbers... also as today. Attached Images

5th June 2008, 05:04 AM	#3
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Interesting observation Chris...and thanks. I was not aware of this trend coming from Spain, but do know there was an entire market in India geared to suit the British "collector" and what was called "the den market'....in other words good looking things of little fighting value or quality, but great decorators....same idea.

6th June 2008, 03:37 AM	#7
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,857	Ditto...great info, and thanks!!