African Powder Horn For Comment

Lew · 5th September 2006, 12:30 AM

Hi All

Just picked up an interesting powder horn up. The leather work resembles Manding work but it could be from Dafur? What do you think?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-AFRICAN-...QQcmdZViewItem

Lew

Tim Simmons · 5th September 2006, 06:34 AM

That looks great, super condition and excellent buy. lately I have been thinking that "Manding" is becoming one of those collector words that sums up a general style of work. I suppose it is just convenience. I am going to say Sahel in future as this hints at many Sultanates in this vast area of Africa untill more accurate information is available. I am getting crabby these days. I just dislike the way some here say collector views and terms turn into a kind of gospel.

Jim McDougall · 8th September 2006, 02:24 AM

Interesting perspective Tim. Actually 'collectors terms' are typically used by 'collectors' as a means of referring to a specific form or style of item within the items being discussed. While typically very frustrating to scholars or academic purists as these terms are often wrought with misnomers, they become almost a necessity semantically for convenience in conversation or discussion. I dont think these terms become any sort of 'gospel' as far as any serious research on weapon research goes, as serious students of such studies are well aware of the inadequacies often in the terms themselves.

I think that the term 'Manding', as referencing the appearance of this powder horn, would be toward the similarity to the flared tips of the Saharan sabres popularly termed 'Manding' (see "African Arms & Armour", Spring, p.40) as well as the leatherwork associated with these swords. It should be noted that the term 'Manding' is actually inclusive of various tribal groups that are primarily linguistically connected in regions of Gambia, Guinea, Ivory Coast, Senegal, and likely even more diffused. The language itself is called Mandingo, and actuality, these sabres seem most often associated with Mali.
Some time ago in speaking with a good friend from Guinea, who was of the Fulani, he immediately recognized the 'Manding' sabres as of a form often appearing in his homeland.

While the term 'Manding' seems admittedly broad in trying to describe a style or form in material culture, it seems to work much better than a description using the term Sahel, which is an incredibly broad geographic term. The 'sahel' is actually a boundary between the Saharan regions that belt laterally across the entire African continent, and the also lateral belt of more fertile regions to the south, which is actually termed the sudan. This is of course not to be confused with the country named Sudan, which also includes Darfur.
Interestingly, the observation suggesting possible Manding associations regarding the elongated, bulbous tip on this horn, similar to the flared tip on Manding scabbards, also notes Darfur where the Sudanese kaskaras have flared tip scabbards.

Speaking of kaskaras, collectors terms and being 'crabby'. The term 'kaskara' is yet another collectors term, which is only used as far as I know in western references to these swords. Apparantly this word is unknown in the Sudan and there these swords are simply called sa'if. In discussing this with individuals from various parts of Sudan including Darfur as well as from as far as Eritrea, where the swords are also known, this is the case. The word or term 'kaskara' is completely unknown. This also includes checking with the University of Khartoum, where no association has been found. In many discussions on these forums, absolutely no evidence for etymology or use of this word for a sword in native regions has ever come forth. Yet, we all know how firmly implanted is that term in referring to these distinct swords, and when we say 'kaskara', there is no doubt which sword we refer to, even though the Sudanese would have no idea what we were talking about !

All best regards,
Jim

Lew · 16th September 2006, 05:19 PM

Hi All

The powder horn arrived today and it's in real nice shape here is a couple of pics. It blends in real well with the rest of my pieces from that region

Lew

Tim Simmons · 16th September 2006, 05:49 PM

Just love that scepter.

Flavio · 16th September 2006, 05:52 PM

I love the arm daggers!! Lew, how many of it you have now???

Lew · 16th September 2006, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flavio

I love the arm daggers!! Lew, how many of it you have now???

Flavio

I have 15 or so right now But who's counting

These are but a few.

Lew

Flavio · 16th September 2006, 06:04 PM

CONGRATS, BEAUTIFUL!!!!!

5th September 2006, 12:30 AM	#1
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	African Powder Horn For Comment Hi All Just picked up an interesting powder horn up. The leather work resembles Manding work but it could be from Dafur? What do you think? http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-AFRICAN-...QQcmdZViewItem Lew

16th September 2006, 05:19 PM	#4
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi All The powder horn arrived today and it's in real nice shape here is a couple of pics. It blends in real well with the rest of my pieces from that region Lew Attached Images

5th September 2006, 06:34 AM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,774	That looks great, super condition and excellent buy. lately I have been thinking that "Manding" is becoming one of those collector words that sums up a general style of work. I suppose it is just convenience. I am going to say Sahel in future as this hints at many Sultanates in this vast area of Africa untill more accurate information is available. I am getting crabby these days. I just dislike the way some here say collector views and terms turn into a kind of gospel.

8th September 2006, 02:24 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,886	Interesting perspective Tim. Actually 'collectors terms' are typically used by 'collectors' as a means of referring to a specific form or style of item within the items being discussed. While typically very frustrating to scholars or academic purists as these terms are often wrought with misnomers, they become almost a necessity semantically for convenience in conversation or discussion. I dont think these terms become any sort of 'gospel' as far as any serious research on weapon research goes, as serious students of such studies are well aware of the inadequacies often in the terms themselves. I think that the term 'Manding', as referencing the appearance of this powder horn, would be toward the similarity to the flared tips of the Saharan sabres popularly termed 'Manding' (see "African Arms & Armour", Spring, p.40) as well as the leatherwork associated with these swords. It should be noted that the term 'Manding' is actually inclusive of various tribal groups that are primarily linguistically connected in regions of Gambia, Guinea, Ivory Coast, Senegal, and likely even more diffused. The language itself is called Mandingo, and actuality, these sabres seem most often associated with Mali. Some time ago in speaking with a good friend from Guinea, who was of the Fulani, he immediately recognized the 'Manding' sabres as of a form often appearing in his homeland. While the term 'Manding' seems admittedly broad in trying to describe a style or form in material culture, it seems to work much better than a description using the term Sahel, which is an incredibly broad geographic term. The 'sahel' is actually a boundary between the Saharan regions that belt laterally across the entire African continent, and the also lateral belt of more fertile regions to the south, which is actually termed the sudan. This is of course not to be confused with the country named Sudan, which also includes Darfur. Interestingly, the observation suggesting possible Manding associations regarding the elongated, bulbous tip on this horn, similar to the flared tip on Manding scabbards, also notes Darfur where the Sudanese kaskaras have flared tip scabbards. Speaking of kaskaras, collectors terms and being 'crabby'. The term 'kaskara' is yet another collectors term, which is only used as far as I know in western references to these swords. Apparantly this word is unknown in the Sudan and there these swords are simply called sa'if. In discussing this with individuals from various parts of Sudan including Darfur as well as from as far as Eritrea, where the swords are also known, this is the case. The word or term 'kaskara' is completely unknown. This also includes checking with the University of Khartoum, where no association has been found. In many discussions on these forums, absolutely no evidence for etymology or use of this word for a sword in native regions has ever come forth. Yet, we all know how firmly implanted is that term in referring to these distinct swords, and when we say 'kaskara', there is no doubt which sword we refer to, even though the Sudanese would have no idea what we were talking about ! All best regards, Jim

16th September 2006, 05:49 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,774	Just love that scepter.

16th September 2006, 05:52 PM	#6
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	I love the arm daggers!! Lew, how many of it you have now???

16th September 2006, 06:04 PM	#8
Flavio Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Italia Posts: 1,243	CONGRATS, BEAUTIFUL!!!!!