Ethical restoration or not?

ariel · 10th June 2012, 08:26 PM

I have a turkish sword with a hopelessly detached crossguard. Originally, it was secured with some kind of native adhesive, similar to what is used on tulwars ( at least looking like it).

I am debating whether I should go into researching the exact original formula, use similar but modern concoctions ( sealing wax with brick powder, for example) or just go for the tried and true epoxy ( my preference due to the availability of material, excellent structural outcome and ease of use).

I remember Artzi's lesson on kilij restoration, where he used epoxy.

How legitimate and ethical would it be to use epoxy?

I am not showing the sword now since I pose an almost hypothetical questions, but will post it when the job is done.

Battara · 10th June 2012, 10:41 PM

I'm with Artzi - no problem with epoxy.

asomotif · 11th June 2012, 12:37 AM

I vote for a natural solution/adhesive.
Some kind of Resin-mix (damar)

Argumentation. It is more original and reversable because when heated it wil loosen again.

In case you need it in real warfare to defend your live, epoxy will be the better choice

Best regards,
Willem

ariel · 11th June 2012, 01:40 AM

Two answers, two opposite opinions. As expected:-)
Imagine I want to sell it ( I am emphatically NOT!!!!!!). Will epoxy diminish the value, and will damar ( or something similar) preserve it?
That applies to any other restoration of any other sword, so it affects all of us.

Gavin Nugent · 11th June 2012, 04:21 AM

An interesting puzzle.

Epoxy would certainly sit well and work well with the securing of the guard if it was say only attached at the points it touched the grip slabs but I personally feel the void within the guard would be better filled with a natural more original material.

Gav

ariel · 11th June 2012, 04:48 AM

Hi Gav,
What would be "original" from your perspective?

Gavin Nugent · 11th June 2012, 06:25 AM

Original for me is a plant based resin/gum.

I would go in to researching the subject if I was opting for choices in that direction.

There have been a number of good discussions on the subject of resins.

One member I do not think has published his formula but by the sounds of it, it would work very well.

I'll see if he has time to chime in.

Gav

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th June 2012, 05:01 PM

The dreaded restoration question.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 11th June 2012, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I have a turkish sword with a hopelessly detached crossguard. Originally, it was secured with some kind of native adhesive, similar to what is used on tulwars ( at least looking like it).

I am debating whether I should go into researching the exact original formula, use similar but modern concoctions ( sealing wax with brick powder, for example) or just go for the tried and true epoxy ( my preference due to the availability of material, excellent structural outcome and ease of use).

I remember Artzi's lesson on kilij restoration, where he used epoxy.

How legitimate and ethical would it be to use epoxy?

I am not showing the sword now since I pose an almost hypothetical questions, but will post it when the job is done.

Salaams ariel; We run into the ethics of restoration and/or conservation~ If it can be undone ~ do it. If it can't ~ don't.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

capt.smash · 12th June 2012, 07:30 PM

May i suggest cuttlers resin it is probably what was used originaly and has been used for hundreds of years by many cultures. It is simple to make and though the ingredients change slightly depending on geographical location it is always basicaly the same thing.
2 parts pine resin
1 part bees wax
1 part brick dust/wood dust /clay dust.
The trick is not to heat to hot to quickly and not to burn yourself.
I make and use this myself and works perfectly,also it can be removed simply by re-heating.

ariel · 13th June 2012, 02:51 AM

What pine resin do you use? Also, how do you achieve a proper tint ( dark-brown with reddish hue)?

capt.smash · 13th June 2012, 08:58 AM

Hi Ariel i use plain old european pine resin, it is easy to source.As for the colour i use very fine brick dust witch makes a dark brown product or you could add powdered charcoal to darken or ochre or other coloured dryed and powdered clays/soils to get the colour you desire.I get very fine brick dust from a model railway supplier this works very well.
You can also ajust the recipy to make a softer or harder cooled product.

ariel · 13th June 2012, 12:05 PM

Many thanks. Sounds simple and I shall try. Keep fingers crossed!

mross · 13th June 2012, 02:51 PM

I think this thread with the recipe should be a sticky

ariel · 13th June 2012, 10:58 PM

Agree.
This question pops up very often and will be needed by many in the future.
Good suppliers of wax and pine resin can be added later, as well as any refinements.

Gavin Nugent · 14th June 2012, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mross

I think this thread with the recipe should be a sticky

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13510

Agreed, put it all in one place though.

Gav

10th June 2012, 08:26 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ethical restoration or not? I have a turkish sword with a hopelessly detached crossguard. Originally, it was secured with some kind of native adhesive, similar to what is used on tulwars ( at least looking like it). I am debating whether I should go into researching the exact original formula, use similar but modern concoctions ( sealing wax with brick powder, for example) or just go for the tried and true epoxy ( my preference due to the availability of material, excellent structural outcome and ease of use). I remember Artzi's lesson on kilij restoration, where he used epoxy. How legitimate and ethical would it be to use epoxy? I am not showing the sword now since I pose an almost hypothetical questions, but will post it when the job is done.

11th June 2012, 04:21 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	puzzle An interesting puzzle. Epoxy would certainly sit well and work well with the securing of the guard if it was say only attached at the points it touched the grip slabs but I personally feel the void within the guard would be better filled with a natural more original material. Gav

10th June 2012, 10:41 PM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	I'm with Artzi - no problem with epoxy.

11th June 2012, 12:37 AM	#3
asomotif Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 2,225	I vote for a natural solution/adhesive. Some kind of Resin-mix (damar) Argumentation. It is more original and reversable because when heated it wil loosen again. In case you need it in real warfare to defend your live, epoxy will be the better choice Best regards, Willem

11th June 2012, 01:40 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Two answers, two opposite opinions. As expected:-) Imagine I want to sell it ( I am emphatically NOT!!!!!!). Will epoxy diminish the value, and will damar ( or something similar) preserve it? That applies to any other restoration of any other sword, so it affects all of us.

11th June 2012, 04:48 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Hi Gav, What would be "original" from your perspective?

11th June 2012, 06:25 AM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Original for me is a plant based resin/gum. I would go in to researching the subject if I was opting for choices in that direction. There have been a number of good discussions on the subject of resins. One member I do not think has published his formula but by the sounds of it, it would work very well. I'll see if he has time to chime in. Gav

11th June 2012, 05:01 PM	#8
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	The dreaded restoration question.

12th June 2012, 07:30 PM	#10
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	May i suggest cuttlers resin it is probably what was used originaly and has been used for hundreds of years by many cultures. It is simple to make and though the ingredients change slightly depending on geographical location it is always basicaly the same thing. 2 parts pine resin 1 part bees wax 1 part brick dust/wood dust /clay dust. The trick is not to heat to hot to quickly and not to burn yourself. I make and use this myself and works perfectly,also it can be removed simply by re-heating.

13th June 2012, 02:51 AM	#11
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	What pine resin do you use? Also, how do you achieve a proper tint ( dark-brown with reddish hue)?

13th June 2012, 08:58 AM	#12
capt.smash Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Devon ,England Posts: 80	Hi Ariel i use plain old european pine resin, it is easy to source.As for the colour i use very fine brick dust witch makes a dark brown product or you could add powdered charcoal to darken or ochre or other coloured dryed and powdered clays/soils to get the colour you desire.I get very fine brick dust from a model railway supplier this works very well. You can also ajust the recipy to make a softer or harder cooled product.

13th June 2012, 12:05 PM	#13
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Many thanks. Sounds simple and I shall try. Keep fingers crossed!

13th June 2012, 02:51 PM	#14
mross Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 478	I think this thread with the recipe should be a sticky

13th June 2012, 10:58 PM	#15
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Agree. This question pops up very often and will be needed by many in the future. Good suppliers of wax and pine resin can be added later, as well as any refinements.