A Question About Gonjos

Rick · 6th October 2006, 04:34 PM

Often I see a feature on some keris which has puzzled me for some time now .

Why are certain gonjos lifted away from the wilah at the tail or greneng end ?
This feature must have some meaning or be of a certain style ; can anyone help with the how and why of this ?

Henk · 6th October 2006, 07:42 PM

Just a guess Rick, but could such a ganja be a replacement?
Pamor doesn't flow over from the blade to the ganja. Next to that the ganja doesn't fit properly on the blade like it is one matching piece.
I never realized it in that way, but mostly when the ganja fits properly on the blade the pamor also is one with the blade. The ganja is made from the same piece of forged metal and therefore the pamor should match the blade.

Interesting question, would like to hear the opinion of our experts.

Rick · 6th October 2006, 08:07 PM

Hi Henk ,
That's something to consider ; but also when you look at the ricikan (correct term?) of both kerises they are similar even though one is Javanese or Maduran and the other seems Sumatran (cross pollination?).

About the lack of pamor on the Jawa piece; it is a very old blade and if I recall correctly from a past discussion of this one possibly from the Sultan Agung period; also again if I recall correctly there was some mention of a prohibition during that time of pamored gonjos or of openly displaying the pamor of one's keris .

Could this be a feature of dapur; or does dapur not cover the area of the gonjo ?

David · 6th October 2006, 08:14 PM

Hi Rick. I believe dapur does cover the area of the gonjo as well, but perhaps others have a different take on that. On the issue of the gonjo having the same pamor as the blade, i don't think this is necessarily the case. There was, if i remember correctly, in certain areas, even a prohibition on pamor on the gonjo of non-court keris.
As to the original question at hand, could this not be just the effects of age and acid washing. That has always been my assumption. I have never seen a newly made keris with this "feature". I don't think it is intentional and i don't think it is necessarily a sign of a replacement gonjo either.

David · 6th October 2006, 08:16 PM

BTW, i love the swastika patern on that Javanese hilt.

Rick · 6th October 2006, 08:22 PM

Hi David , I believe it's a Maduran ukiran; sorry I didnt show it in its entirety.

I'm just not sure if this is the result of warangan; the Sumatran keris does not look heavily eroded enough for this to have ocurred .

simatua · 6th October 2006, 09:48 PM

Besides the fact that a replaced ganja not fits the blade,
imo one of the reasons can be the heat.
At first the ganja is made at fit size before "welded" to the blade.
During the welding of the ganja, compared with a lot of heat, the tension in the metal causes the lifted tail.
Also you see a lot of little round damages close to the peksi, because there is the center of the heat, and the place where the ganja is hammered to the blade.
Like i say just an opinion.

I got the idea of a friend who has a nice keris, afterwards gold was laid on the ganja, also compared with a lot of heat and tension in the material, wich caused
space between the blade and ganja

BluErf · 7th October 2006, 07:42 AM

I thought of another explanation - when a keris sheath is made for a keris, a well-made sheath's only point of contact with the keris shd be the ganja. Hence, the blade is 'suspended' in the sheath, supported only by the ganja. With time, and with all the wearing of the keris (worn upright), the weight of the blade causes the ganja to warp away from the main blade.

A similar case would be with katanas/wakizashis/tantos - the blade suspends in the sheath, supported by the habaki and the mouth of the scabbard,

Alam Shah · 8th October 2006, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

I thought of another explanation - when a keris sheath is made for a keris, a well-made sheath's only point of contact with the keris shd be the ganja. Hence, the blade is 'suspended' in the sheath, supported only by the ganja. With time, and with all the wearing of the keris (worn upright), the weight of the blade causes the ganja to warp away from the main blade.

Agreed with BluErf comment, adding another...
In Javanese terms, this phenomenon is known as "Nyangkem Kodok". This might be due to age wear from years of ritual cleansing or improper treatment of the blade. Uneven heat treatment to one part of the blade was also thought to contribute to this effect.

A. G. Maisey · 9th October 2006, 07:23 AM

There are perhaps as many answers to this question as there are keris which display this feature.

In the two keris that Rick has shown, I would suggest that perhaps we are looking at two different cases with different causes.
In the first there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we are looking at the effects of time.
Plain, simple erosion.

In the second, what I can see is a pretty substantial gonjo that does not display an unusual amount of erosion, moreover it is a fairly recent keris.

Possibly this gonjo was not very carefully fitted in the first place.

It does take a lot of time and effort to achieve a tight, neat fit of gonjo to blade, and if a keris being made to a price, the maker is not going to waste time on something that will not recompense him at an adequate rate for time spent.

This gonjo has probably been fitted by the gonjo around the pesi being punched . I feel that a key in keyway fitting would not have been used, and even if it were, I believe there would be evidence of the gonjo hole being tightened by punching. When the gonjo was punched down, any imperfect fitting would show up by the gonjo lifting away from the blade. Another possibility would be that the tip of the gonjo has been subjected to force.

If this second keris belonged to me, and this opening bothered me, I would apply gentle heat to the gonjo with a propane torch, and tap it down to fit.

Yes, heat could cause a gonjo to distort, but how and when would this heat be applied?
When a blade is heat treated, the gonjo is not subjected to any heat at all.Gonjos are not welded into place, they are mechanically fixed.

Long term deflection, caused by the weight of the blade being suspended by the gonjo?

Perhaps some of our engineers could supply the figures that would tell us what sort of deflection we could expect and over what time period, taking into account such factors as the time that the blade was actually freely suspended, temperature variation, relief of stress when the blade was not suspended , or was withdrawn from the scabbard.

I am not saying that long term deflection could not occur, but I rather suspect that requirements for any noticeable amount of deflection to occur might be so extreme as to completely remove this cause from consideration.

drdavid · 9th October 2006, 10:39 PM

Dear Mr Maisey
could you explain this further.

Quote:

This gonjo has probably been fitted by the gonjo around the pesi being punched . I feel that a key in keyway fitting would not have been used, and even if it were, I believe there would be evidence of the gonjo hole being tightened by punching.

It appears you are talking about different quality levels of manufacture but I don't understand the different techniques you are discussing.
cheers
Drd

A. G. Maisey · 10th October 2006, 12:44 AM

This is related more to the methods used in different geographic locations than to quality.

The traditional methods of fixing a gonjo to a keris, that I have encountered , involve one of two broad approaches:- either tightening the gonjo in its entirety to the pesi, or using a tiny pin that fits into a groove filed in the hole of the gonjo to tighten the gonjo to the pesi.

If the gonjo is tightened in its entirety, it can be tightened by punching down the gonjo around the pesi, or by leaving a shoulder on the pesi and punching down this shoulder to tighten it against the gonjo.

If a pin is used---the key and keyway--- a slot or groove is filed into the pesi hole on either the buntut urang side, or the sirah cecak side of the gonjo and a tiny pin driven home to tighten the gonjo against the pesi.Ideally, this pin will be cut by hand, and tapered. Sometimes two pins will be used, one at the buntut urang side, and one at the sirah cecak side of the pesi.

Ideally the gonjo hole should be a snug fit to the pesi before it is tightened by either method. This can be achieved by using a shrink fit, that is making the gonjo hole very, very slightly undersize, and heating it just sufficient to expand it and allow it to be tapped into place.This is not very often used, but in any case, the gonjo should be a very snug fit to the pesi.

In a quality keris the bottom of the gonjo should provide a perfect contact to the base of the keris blade. To achieve this perfect contact is very, very, very difficult, and you should not expect to find it in any other than an absolutely top quality keris. It simply takes too much time, and raises cost too much, for it to be found in any ordinary keris---except by luck.

If a perfect, tight fit is achieved, this tight mechanical fit will to a great degree exclude dirt and moisture from the gap between the blade base and the gonjo.By excluding dirt and moisture the erosion process is slowed. Since Araldite and other epoxys have come onto the market, people in Jawa will use these between the gonjo and the blade base to provide additional protection against erosion.

In a keris of ordinary, or low quality, the gap between blade base and blade will be sufficient to allow dirt and moisture to penetrate. This has always been so.The process of fitting the gonjo will often exaggerate the gap at either the buntut urang, or at the sirah cecak. Once dirt gets in, it retains the moisture and sets up the process of erosion. In an old keris the gap between the blade base and the gonjo is more often than not closed with solid rust. Remove this rust and you have a gap--often a very wide gap--- between the blade base and the gonjo.

In Rick's older keris, the blade and gonjo are very thin at the wadidang, and there is insufficient metal left there to support this rust, so it has fallen out, revealing the gap.The other place where the gonjo erodes more quickly is at the sides of the pesi; the gonjo is often very thin here, and the erosion reveals itself by showing a slight dip at this point in the straight line of the bottom of the gonjo. Sometimes the erosion at this point in an old keris will become so bad that the gonjo just loses its grip and does not have sufficient strength left to allow it to be refitted by any conventional means.

Anyway, coming back to geographic locations.
A Surakarta blade will nearly always have the gonjo fixed with a pin---key and keyway--- a Bugis or Peninsula keris will most often have the gonjo fixed by tightening the gonjo to the pesi by punching. Both methods can be found in all keris from various locations, but the pin is more prevalent in Jawa and Bali, the punch down gonjo method more prevalent in other places.

David R · 15th December 2023, 08:54 PM

Thank you for this very informative post, answers a question and points me towards a solution to a problem I have.

A. G. Maisey · 15th December 2023, 09:06 PM

What is the problem David?

I cannot see any real problem in the photo.

Yes, there is a gap between the blade body & the gonjo, this is not at all unusual in older keris, and even in recent keris which have not been carefully made.

By dismounting the gonjo & refitting it this gap can very probably be reduced, but this is not a job that should be undertaken by somebody who does not possess the necessary skills.

In Indonesia, the modern approach is simply to fill the gap with two part epoxy + black artists powder + iron filings. This is not an approach that I approve of or recommend.

David R · 15th December 2023, 11:47 PM

The gonjo has actually become loose, separated even. I will not rush into dealing with it, but concentrate on getting the blade dressed for now.

A. G. Maisey · 16th December 2023, 03:14 AM

David, the gonjo needs to be fixed in place before you try to get dress for the keris.

You're not looking at a big job just to fix it into place, ten, fifteen minutes tops.

To demount and refit in order to eliminate the gap, you are looking at serious time & committment.

But that gonjo must be tightened up before you think about dress, finding suitable dress could take quite a while, depending on where you are.

6th October 2006, 04:34 PM	#1
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	A Question About Gonjos Often I see a feature on some keris which has puzzled me for some time now . Why are certain gonjos lifted away from the wilah at the tail or greneng end ? This feature must have some meaning or be of a certain style ; can anyone help with the how and why of this ? Attached Images

6th October 2006, 08:22 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Hi David , I believe it's a Maduran ukiran; sorry I didnt show it in its entirety. I'm just not sure if this is the result of warangan; the Sumatran keris does not look heavily eroded enough for this to have ocurred . Attached Images

6th October 2006, 09:48 PM	#7
simatua Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 69	lifted tail cause of the heat Besides the fact that a replaced ganja not fits the blade, imo one of the reasons can be the heat. At first the ganja is made at fit size before "welded" to the blade. During the welding of the ganja, compared with a lot of heat, the tension in the metal causes the lifted tail. Also you see a lot of little round damages close to the peksi, because there is the center of the heat, and the place where the ganja is hammered to the blade. Like i say just an opinion. I got the idea of a friend who has a nice keris, afterwards gold was laid on the ganja, also compared with a lot of heat and tension in the material, wich caused space between the blade and ganja

15th December 2023, 08:54 PM	#13
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Thank you for this very informative post, answers a question and points me towards a solution to a problem I have. Attached Images

6th October 2006, 07:42 PM	#2
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Just a guess Rick, but could such a ganja be a replacement? Pamor doesn't flow over from the blade to the ganja. Next to that the ganja doesn't fit properly on the blade like it is one matching piece. I never realized it in that way, but mostly when the ganja fits properly on the blade the pamor also is one with the blade. The ganja is made from the same piece of forged metal and therefore the pamor should match the blade. Interesting question, would like to hear the opinion of our experts.

6th October 2006, 08:07 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,294	Hi Henk , That's something to consider ; but also when you look at the ricikan (correct term?) of both kerises they are similar even though one is Javanese or Maduran and the other seems Sumatran (cross pollination?). About the lack of pamor on the Jawa piece; it is a very old blade and if I recall correctly from a past discussion of this one possibly from the Sultan Agung period; also again if I recall correctly there was some mention of a prohibition during that time of pamored gonjos or of openly displaying the pamor of one's keris . Could this be a feature of dapur; or does dapur not cover the area of the gonjo ?

6th October 2006, 08:14 PM	#4
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	Hi Rick. I believe dapur does cover the area of the gonjo as well, but perhaps others have a different take on that. On the issue of the gonjo having the same pamor as the blade, i don't think this is necessarily the case. There was, if i remember correctly, in certain areas, even a prohibition on pamor on the gonjo of non-court keris. As to the original question at hand, could this not be just the effects of age and acid washing. That has always been my assumption. I have never seen a newly made keris with this "feature". I don't think it is intentional and i don't think it is necessarily a sign of a replacement gonjo either.

6th October 2006, 08:16 PM	#5
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,130	BTW, i love the swastika patern on that Javanese hilt.

7th October 2006, 07:42 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I thought of another explanation - when a keris sheath is made for a keris, a well-made sheath's only point of contact with the keris shd be the ganja. Hence, the blade is 'suspended' in the sheath, supported only by the ganja. With time, and with all the wearing of the keris (worn upright), the weight of the blade causes the ganja to warp away from the main blade. A similar case would be with katanas/wakizashis/tantos - the blade suspends in the sheath, supported by the habaki and the mouth of the scabbard,

9th October 2006, 07:23 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	There are perhaps as many answers to this question as there are keris which display this feature. In the two keris that Rick has shown, I would suggest that perhaps we are looking at two different cases with different causes. In the first there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever in my mind that we are looking at the effects of time. Plain, simple erosion. In the second, what I can see is a pretty substantial gonjo that does not display an unusual amount of erosion, moreover it is a fairly recent keris. Possibly this gonjo was not very carefully fitted in the first place. It does take a lot of time and effort to achieve a tight, neat fit of gonjo to blade, and if a keris being made to a price, the maker is not going to waste time on something that will not recompense him at an adequate rate for time spent. This gonjo has probably been fitted by the gonjo around the pesi being punched . I feel that a key in keyway fitting would not have been used, and even if it were, I believe there would be evidence of the gonjo hole being tightened by punching. When the gonjo was punched down, any imperfect fitting would show up by the gonjo lifting away from the blade. Another possibility would be that the tip of the gonjo has been subjected to force. If this second keris belonged to me, and this opening bothered me, I would apply gentle heat to the gonjo with a propane torch, and tap it down to fit. Yes, heat could cause a gonjo to distort, but how and when would this heat be applied? When a blade is heat treated, the gonjo is not subjected to any heat at all.Gonjos are not welded into place, they are mechanically fixed. Long term deflection, caused by the weight of the blade being suspended by the gonjo? Perhaps some of our engineers could supply the figures that would tell us what sort of deflection we could expect and over what time period, taking into account such factors as the time that the blade was actually freely suspended, temperature variation, relief of stress when the blade was not suspended , or was withdrawn from the scabbard. I am not saying that long term deflection could not occur, but I rather suspect that requirements for any noticeable amount of deflection to occur might be so extreme as to completely remove this cause from consideration.

10th October 2006, 12:44 AM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	This is related more to the methods used in different geographic locations than to quality. The traditional methods of fixing a gonjo to a keris, that I have encountered , involve one of two broad approaches:- either tightening the gonjo in its entirety to the pesi, or using a tiny pin that fits into a groove filed in the hole of the gonjo to tighten the gonjo to the pesi. If the gonjo is tightened in its entirety, it can be tightened by punching down the gonjo around the pesi, or by leaving a shoulder on the pesi and punching down this shoulder to tighten it against the gonjo. If a pin is used---the key and keyway--- a slot or groove is filed into the pesi hole on either the buntut urang side, or the sirah cecak side of the gonjo and a tiny pin driven home to tighten the gonjo against the pesi.Ideally, this pin will be cut by hand, and tapered. Sometimes two pins will be used, one at the buntut urang side, and one at the sirah cecak side of the pesi. Ideally the gonjo hole should be a snug fit to the pesi before it is tightened by either method. This can be achieved by using a shrink fit, that is making the gonjo hole very, very slightly undersize, and heating it just sufficient to expand it and allow it to be tapped into place.This is not very often used, but in any case, the gonjo should be a very snug fit to the pesi. In a quality keris the bottom of the gonjo should provide a perfect contact to the base of the keris blade. To achieve this perfect contact is very, very, very difficult, and you should not expect to find it in any other than an absolutely top quality keris. It simply takes too much time, and raises cost too much, for it to be found in any ordinary keris---except by luck. If a perfect, tight fit is achieved, this tight mechanical fit will to a great degree exclude dirt and moisture from the gap between the blade base and the gonjo.By excluding dirt and moisture the erosion process is slowed. Since Araldite and other epoxys have come onto the market, people in Jawa will use these between the gonjo and the blade base to provide additional protection against erosion. In a keris of ordinary, or low quality, the gap between blade base and blade will be sufficient to allow dirt and moisture to penetrate. This has always been so.The process of fitting the gonjo will often exaggerate the gap at either the buntut urang, or at the sirah cecak. Once dirt gets in, it retains the moisture and sets up the process of erosion. In an old keris the gap between the blade base and the gonjo is more often than not closed with solid rust. Remove this rust and you have a gap--often a very wide gap--- between the blade base and the gonjo. In Rick's older keris, the blade and gonjo are very thin at the wadidang, and there is insufficient metal left there to support this rust, so it has fallen out, revealing the gap.The other place where the gonjo erodes more quickly is at the sides of the pesi; the gonjo is often very thin here, and the erosion reveals itself by showing a slight dip at this point in the straight line of the bottom of the gonjo. Sometimes the erosion at this point in an old keris will become so bad that the gonjo just loses its grip and does not have sufficient strength left to allow it to be refitted by any conventional means. Anyway, coming back to geographic locations. A Surakarta blade will nearly always have the gonjo fixed with a pin---key and keyway--- a Bugis or Peninsula keris will most often have the gonjo fixed by tightening the gonjo to the pesi by punching. Both methods can be found in all keris from various locations, but the pin is more prevalent in Jawa and Bali, the punch down gonjo method more prevalent in other places.

15th December 2023, 09:06 PM	#14
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	What is the problem David? I cannot see any real problem in the photo. Yes, there is a gap between the blade body & the gonjo, this is not at all unusual in older keris, and even in recent keris which have not been carefully made. By dismounting the gonjo & refitting it this gap can very probably be reduced, but this is not a job that should be undertaken by somebody who does not possess the necessary skills. In Indonesia, the modern approach is simply to fill the gap with two part epoxy + black artists powder + iron filings. This is not an approach that I approve of or recommend.

15th December 2023, 11:47 PM	#15
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	The gonjo has actually become loose, separated even. I will not rush into dealing with it, but concentrate on getting the blade dressed for now.

16th December 2023, 03:14 AM	#16
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,898	David, the gonjo needs to be fixed in place before you try to get dress for the keris. You're not looking at a big job just to fix it into place, ten, fifteen minutes tops. To demount and refit in order to eliminate the gap, you are looking at serious time & committment. But that gonjo must be tightened up before you think about dress, finding suitable dress could take quite a while, depending on where you are.