Hand & Half Italian Sword Age?

Cathey · 11th December 2011, 02:37 AM

Hi Guys

I am looking at buying an early, probably c1500 Hand & a Half Italian Plain cruciform guard pitted blade. Sadly I am unable to get better pictures although I have had the sword in my hand and believe it to be authentic. The sword is a Hand and a Half probably out of the Missaglia workshop in Milan. The mark is the same as that used by of Tommaso’s father Petrola Da Missaglia, however the blade appears more 15th century than 14th, perhaps someone kept using Petrolas mark much latter. Petrolas was around 1390 and this blade bares the shoulders that appear more in 16th century examples to my knowledge.

Ref 356 GARDNER, Colonel Robert E. SMALL ARMS MAKERS p356 illustration 1.1433
Ref GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS pp67.

I would be interested in anyone else’s thoughts as to the age of this sword and why it would carry an earlier mark if it is indeed 15th-16th century. The sword does not appear to have been rehilted at any time it looks complete and feels original.

Cheers Cathey

cornelistromp · 11th December 2011, 12:26 PM

Hi Cathey,

The sword is Oakeshott of Type XVa, but can also be placed in XVIIIa.
The mark of the workshop Missaglia, a m below a splitted cross is used upto 1452.
it has most similarties with the personal mark of Petrajolo Da Missaglia (late 14th century), but despite some references in the literature, there are no (authentic) swords of the workshop Missaglia known!

The pommel of type T3 is of similar type as the pommel of the famous sword of Estorre Visconti. (lord of Milan from 1412 to 1413) (cf. Boccia and Coelho no 85, Oakeshott XV.13 ROMs)
A blade with ricasso on a type XVa or VXIIIa would be very rare however possible at the beginning of the 15th century.

If the sword is authentic, it is made in the first half of the 15th century.

I personally would seriously consider that it is is a later reproduction, probably from the 19th century.

hope it helps.

best,

Matchlock · 11th December 2011, 06:06 PM

Hi Cathey,

I'm completely with Jasper, especially as neither the quillons nor the ricasso are of correct 15th c. shape.

Best,
Michael

Rick · 11th December 2011, 07:33 PM

Cathey, do you have the Seller's permission to discuss this sword here ?

If you do not the thread must be deleted; items currently for sale are not to be discussed without the seller's permission .

Apologies, it is forum policy .

Cathey · 11th December 2011, 08:09 PM

Hi we do have permission the seller is a good friend of ours and this sword and several others have been offered to only us.The comments made here are the same ones we had we had doubts
Cheers Cathey

11th December 2011, 02:37 AM	#1
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Hand & Half Italian Sword Age? Hi Guys I am looking at buying an early, probably c1500 Hand & a Half Italian Plain cruciform guard pitted blade. Sadly I am unable to get better pictures although I have had the sword in my hand and believe it to be authentic. The sword is a Hand and a Half probably out of the Missaglia workshop in Milan. The mark is the same as that used by of Tommaso’s father Petrola Da Missaglia, however the blade appears more 15th century than 14th, perhaps someone kept using Petrolas mark much latter. Petrolas was around 1390 and this blade bares the shoulders that appear more in 16th century examples to my knowledge. Ref 356 GARDNER, Colonel Robert E. SMALL ARMS MAKERS p356 illustration 1.1433 Ref GYNGELL, Dudley S. Hawtrey ARMOURERS MARKS pp67. I would be interested in anyone else’s thoughts as to the age of this sword and why it would carry an earlier mark if it is indeed 15th-16th century. The sword does not appear to have been rehilted at any time it looks complete and feels original. Cheers Cathey Attached Images Last edited by Cathey; 11th December 2011 at 06:26 AM.

11th December 2011, 12:26 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,058	Hi Cathey, The sword is Oakeshott of Type XVa, but can also be placed in XVIIIa. The mark of the workshop Missaglia, a m below a splitted cross is used upto 1452. it has most similarties with the personal mark of Petrajolo Da Missaglia (late 14th century), but despite some references in the literature, there are no (authentic) swords of the workshop Missaglia known! The pommel of type T3 is of similar type as the pommel of the famous sword of Estorre Visconti. (lord of Milan from 1412 to 1413) (cf. Boccia and Coelho no 85, Oakeshott XV.13 ROMs) A blade with ricasso on a type XVa or VXIIIa would be very rare however possible at the beginning of the 15th century. If the sword is authentic, it is made in the first half of the 15th century. I personally would seriously consider that it is is a later reproduction, probably from the 19th century. hope it helps. best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 11th December 2011 at 12:37 PM.

11th December 2011, 06:06 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Cathey, I'm completely with Jasper, especially as neither the quillons nor the ricasso are of correct 15th c. shape. Best, Michael

11th December 2011, 07:33 PM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,291	Cathey, do you have the Seller's permission to discuss this sword here ? If you do not the thread must be deleted; items currently for sale are not to be discussed without the seller's permission . Apologies, it is forum policy .

11th December 2011, 08:09 PM	#5
Cathey Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: adelaide south australia Posts: 282	Hi we do have permission the seller is a good friend of ours and this sword and several others have been offered to only us.The comments made here are the same ones we had we had doubts Cheers Cathey