clunker saif?

[Pukka Bundook]

Got an old battered sword at the local gun-sale,
No pictures yet, (Will have to read up on how to post them)
Somewhat crude hilt, with nuckle guard, and very rough horn 'pistol grip' handle
top quillon bent acutely forward, over the upper of two hooks, ...(like rings to protect a finger when over the cross )
These two 'hooks' have an extension, that stand out at right-angles to the blade.( to the right of blade)
Blade curved, central fuller, sharp false edge for maybe 6 inches, Round tip, but possibly broken off.
Blade very spring, But quite bent!!.....26 1/2 inches long.
Blade marked "Genoa".........but the 'N' is backwards!!.........so a faked mark.
also has 'eyelashes' all the way down to false edge on both sides.

Over-all condition is a bit crude and pitted, but rust must have been removed with an electric wire brush just for the sale!!
Is it worth posting a picture or two?
or has anyone seen this sort of thing before?

Thanks, Richard.

[Pukka Bundook]

Here are the pictures that go with my last post.
I would appreciate any light you may be able to shed on what we have here!!
Many thanks,
Richard.

[FenrisWolf]

Any time you want to get rid of that 'clunker', I'm sure you'll find someone to take it off your hands. That particular style of hilt belongs to a 'Nimcha'; a Berber sword, almost always seen with a European blade. It's also not uncommon to see tribal markings added to the blade at the time the hilt was attached, so you probably still have one on your sword, it's just been dressed up a bit. The odd quillions and the pseudo-pistol grip hilt are typical, though most I've seen are flat, without the projections rising perpendicular to the blade.

Even in rough shape like this it's nice to have as an example of type in your collection. Ones in decent shape tend to be quite pricey.

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you Sir, for the reply.
After posting the pictures, I did see a similar example in an old 1978 Arms and armour review.
Felt somewhat embarrased not knowing the correct name!
I have the odd question;
1,
Can you tell me what the projections perpendicular to the blade are for?
2,
Is it possible to give an approximate age to this sword?
3,
Does anyone know of a source of information about Nimchas?
(I don't like to be ignorant!!)
4,
Would it be possible for someone to PM me with a Very approximat value?

( Purchasing it at auction, in a lot with cleaning rods and a walking stick has me wondering if I robbed myself or not!)
Thank you for your time,
Richard.

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Thank you Sir, for the reply.
After posting the pictures, I did see a similar example in an old 1978 Arms and armour review.
Felt somewhat embarrased not knowing the correct name!
I have the odd question;
1,
Can you tell me what the projections perpendicular to the blade are for?
2,
Is it possible to give an approximate age to this sword?
3,
Does anyone know of a source of information about Nimchas?
(I don't like to be ignorant!!)
4,
Would it be possible for someone to PM me with a Very approximat value?

( Purchasing it at auction, in a lot with cleaning rods and a walking stick has me wondering if I robbed myself or not!)
Thank you for your time,
Richard.

I will tell you what little I know, and hopefully Jim or one of the other board members who is more knowledgable (and has access to references I do not!) can fill in any blanks (and correct any mistakes!)

1. The projections are, I believe, an additional knuckleguard. I have seen one of these where they arced across and formed a complete ring, but most are flat.

2. Most of these that I've seen date to the mid-1800s. There were a couple of weapons forms that seemed to evolve and disappear very quickly.

3. This is one where the people with reference books will have to help you out. What little I know I've gleaned here and there, but I don't have any good sources.

One thing you can do is go do Google Image Search and look up 'nimcha'. Click on any pictures that resemble your sword and if the page is still up you may find some information that way.

4. I'll PM you on this one.

[Rick]

5. Enter nimcha into this forum's search engine for previous threads on these swords .

[Pukka Bundook]

Thank you for the answers Fenris, and Rick.
Will delve into archives and see what I can unearth.

If anyone else has anything they can add, I would be most grateful.

I can think of lots of questions, but must discipline myself!.........and see if the answers are alredy here somewhere on this forum!!

Richard.

[Rick]

The only thing I can add is that in my very limited exposure to these swords and comparing this one to my example of this type of sayf/nimcha ; I have never seen those projecting lugs on the quillons before .

[Pukka Bundook]

Thanks for reply, Rick.
I think I saw some when doing a search, that had a half-circle set-up, but not just projections.
I found the pic of yours, V. interesting!
Very similar hilt, Very different blade!
Did you find any more information re. the blade?

On mine may I ask "now what?"

is it OK to re-align the horn in the centre of the handle,?.......it looks like the original horn used was hollow, (as to be expected) and had a piece inserted, that has moved somehow.
What about the cracked/chipped end of handle, should I fix or leave alone?

And the wire-brush marks? dull it down? ?

Clean blade at all?.........w.o. removing pits of course!!

I know this is not an expensive sword, but still don't want to do the wrong thing.
Thanks,
Richard.

[Rick]

Hi Richard, no I haven't found any more information than that it's an old backsword blade; possibly English and possibly as old as the turn of the 18th century . That was about all I could discover about it .. so far . No one has been able to identify the mark on the blade .

As for doing any work on yours; were I you I'd just live with it for a while .

[RhysMichael]

Correct me if I am wrong but I do not think is is incorrect to call this a saif. The term Saif is arabian for sword and usually used with curved blade swords.( A post from Artzi pointed out that this term may have come from Aramaic as it is also used in Hebrew for a straight rapier like sword ) While these Saif or Nimcha are usually attributed to Morroco they are also appearantly found in Zanzibar ( The Zanzibar saif that are a pretty much a type of 'nimcha' have the same basic grip but have a ring on theguard.). Of Interest I have seen one example of a sword with a Nimcha handle and a blade like a toukuba. In a thread with Jim about these he once wrote "It must be remembered that the commonly used term 'nimcha'* for the multi-quilloned Moroccan sabre is actually misapplied, and as in most cases in the Dar-al-Islam is locally considered a sa'if. These Moroccan swords with complex guards were known from at least the earlier 17th century in the Maghreb (which included the Moroccan littoral as far as Algeria)and the hilts are believed to have developed from early Italian sabres via Arab trade."

While we call these Nimcha Robert Elgood in his book "Arms & Armour of Arabia" noted that the literal Arabic term Nimcha ( Nimsha) denotes a 'short sword', which really does not fit these longer swords

A zanzibar sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...00351/ph-0.jpg

A morrocan sword
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/...01835/ph-0.jpg

Please feel free to correct me if my impressions on this are wrong

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Richard,
Sorry to come in on this so late, apparantly I missed it

As has been noted, this is a Moroccan sa'if , more commonly termed by collectors a 'nimcha' (thanks very much Rhys Michael for the reference.

Actually this is a most interesting example, and as I always implore, please leave it alone unless there is active rust. These weapons were often refurbished numerous times during thier working lives, and sometimes the work of the armorers is amateurish, making it difficult to discern these from the contrived workings of devious collector/dealers. I always feel better presuming the former, and analyzing the example with the state it is in.

The blade on this, clearly heavily worked over, appears to be a 19th century military sabre blade, with these markings added by an armorer attempting to duplicate other trade blade markings. Most fascinating is that the half circle (sickle marks) aligned along the blade as motif in linear fashion is seen only on Caucasian blades of the second half 19th c. and typically attributed to Chechen manufacture. The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa', the blades which were associated with the origins on the familiar sickle marks which of course are well known seen back to back in a single pair, not used as motif as seen here.

This may well be a tribal piece from the Maghreb, the rounded tip on the blade may suggest further into the Sahara where of course, these are seen on takoubas. It seems most likely to be a late incarnation, probably into the early 20th c. While the 'nimcha' is typically considered more of a coastal weapon, in these later times, trade routes and heightened tribal and colonial activity certainly increased the diffusion of weapons.

All the best,
Jim

[ariel]

Jim,
I am confused: where does the info about linear arrangement of the "eyelash " sign being in any way characteristic of Caucasian blades come from?
All similar markings on Caucasian swords I've ever seen are either single or arranged as an opposing pair. Often, they were flanked by 3 dots on each side, locally called " little bees".
This mark is called Gurda ( or Gorda), the origin of which is uncertain and takes about 10 pages in the Askhabov's book " Chechen Weapons". They range from "Gora Da", ie "the possessor of might" in memory of a legendary nameless master from Ayttkhalloi, name of an aul (village) Gordali, name of a master from Gordaloi named Gorda, a word "gura da", ie " owner of a trap" ( teeth marks) or a shout " gurda" ( " I'll show you!") with which one master once allegedly cut his opponent in half.
Likely, the influence of a similar Genoese mark was involved. Genoese colonies on the Black Sea imported blades to Circassians.
I have yet to encounter a Caucasian blade with a linear orientation of multiple Gurda marks.
I would really appreciate a reference.

[Jim McDougall]

Hi Ariel,
The Ashkabov book is an excellent reference, and this is exactly where I saw illustrations of these blades, which I had actually seen on a Khevsur sword.
Interesting on the term 'gurda', which I have been under the impression simply is a term used to denote high quality or valued blade, and as you note the etymology is unclear.

The 'Kaldam' sword, apparantly referring generally to certain swords used by Chechens and Khevsurs, and noting the 'gurda' blades, is described in Ashkabov (p.75) and the illustration of the blade has the linear 'sickle' type half circles the length of the blade along the back. The same blade form, a straight, single edged blade with the same linear motif of these markings, is shown on p.114, as a blade from Ataghi (the example on extreme right).

While the use of these markings as motif is not addressed in the text, it does seem apparant that it did exist on this particular blade form. The Genoan marking, as you note, certainly was copied in many cases, and this did derive from those Genoan colonies. It is interesting how widely these blades were diffused by such trade.

Although it is difficult to see clearly in the illustrations, that these half circles are actually imitations of the toothed half circles, close examination as in the example I have seen did reveal that they indeed were.

Sorry for not specifying the reference. I have seen the same use of this half circle motif on at least one example of an unusual sword blade from India, and I will try to locate that reference. I think it was an auction catalog.

All the best,
Jim

[Pukka Bundook]

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

[FenrisWolf]

Originally Posted by Pukka Bundook

Well, Much of this is a bit over my head, not having reference books on the subject.
I had been led to believe that Morrocan sa'ifs did not have ring-guards, whilst Zanzibar saifs did, so my logic figured as this had perpendicular projections (Like a chopped off ring guard) this must be a kind of Zanzibar sword.

Also, the Berber saifs/nimchas on the forum here are much different to this one, (no guard at all) Yet both appear to have been used by the Berber people?,
Could anyone enlighten me, and please, excuse my ignorance!

While my own knowledge is limited, keep in mind that when one speaks of 'Berber' and 'Moroccan', one is speaking of a number of different tribes, each with their own identity and preferences as to weapons. One might as well say 'Native American' and expect the Iroquois to be carrying the same weapons as the Apache.

Even within the same tribe there can be a huge variation of weapons. There have been a number of discussions of the flyssa on this board, yet it is a weapon that only appeared briefly in its most recognized form, from the early 1800s through the early 1900s, and that was just the Kayble. How many other variations were carried by the different tribes probably no one will ever know for certain.

[katana]

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

[Emanuel]

Nicely spotted, David!

The Acehnese rencong has a bism'allah carved at the base of the blade, so this certainly has precedent. Your observation could be correct, but keep in mind that the form is also derived from one that had nothing to do with "allah". Could be an armourer's aethetic sense at work, adapting existing shapes to new meanings.

Emanuel

[ariel]

I think we are seeing things that are not there: kind of "Lady Mondegreen" reading.
Algerean Nimchas had only 2 langets ( or are they bent quillons?) , and Zanzibarean swords had in effect 2 langets and a ring. Both would absolutely preclude "reading" the configuration of the handguard as "Allah".
If we follow the same reasoning, European D-guards would stand for " Dominus" or " Deus", and Albanian Khandjars, with their diagonally incised handles would hint at " Virgo Maria"
For those not familiar with Lady Mondegreen, here is the link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondegreen

[Jim McDougall]

These are some really interesting observations!! and I think such constructive ideas are often very important in studying ethnographic weapons. One of my favorite quotes:
"...discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen,
and thinking what nobody has thought".
-Albert von Szent-Gyorgy

Actually the very interesting hilt structure of these sa'if/ nimchas has been studied and discussed numerous times over the years. It would seem that many of the features, especially the distinctive quillon, guard arrangement evolved from early Italian swords, and these influences were carried by mostly trade interaction from about the late 15th c. onward. Study on this development was discussed by Anthony North in 1975 ( "A Late 15th c. Italian Sword", in 'The Connoisseur' Dec.1975).

Prior to this, the catalog of the collections of Charles Buttin (Rumilly, France, 1933) shows numerous examples of these sa'if, those with the distinct ring on the crossguard noted as 'Arab' without any reference to 'Zanzibar' attribution. I believe the Zanzibar association developed with its prominence as a trade center, and prevalence of furbishers and outfitters there who produced examples of earlier Arab swords with both trade and native blades there in the 19th c. It does seem that the ring guard has been established as typically found on these sa'if known to have come from Zanzibar, but they do not seem to have been necessarily indiginous prior to examples produced later in the 19th c. there.In the Buttin reference, examples of these sa'if without the ring guard and with the multiple downward quillons were invariably labelled Moroccan. Interestingly, I believe the ring guards are reflections also of early Italian swords, which often had these as the more complex guards developed.

While this material on the development of these hilts presents the results of existing and much earlier researches, I find the suggestions made most interesting and never discount the possibilities of the many ways key influences may have been selected.

All best regards,
Jim

[FenrisWolf]

It also never hurts to try and get inside the heads of those who made and used such weapons. There is little practical reason for such an ornate hilt that would not be equally served by a simpler design. so what was the aesthetic that attracted the weaponsmith? Perhaps an early artisan noticed the similarity between the basic design and the calligraphy for 'Allah'; perhaps it was away of avoiding producing weapons whose hilts were also the 'sign of the cross'. At this late date no one is likely to know for sure, but it never hurts to speculate so long as one remembers to keep an open mind and not become over-attached to any one theory, at least until such time as there is sufficient evidence to choose one in preference over others.

[Pukka Bundook]

Well I'm still with you chaps, and find it all very fascinating!

Katana's observation appears to me very possible.

I do not know how many known examples of sa'ifs have a guard like this one.
The ones I have seen either have a 'D' ring, or 'quillons' that taper out and down, away from the blade, not curling in in the manner of a ring guard.

One observation I can make, is this sword is very handy, fast and very comfortable to hold, with the finger over the cross.
Held in this manner it really comes to life, Yet, the very few other examples of sa'ifs I have seen pictures of appear to pre-clude holding in this manner. (no-where for finger to go!)
The sword does appear to hav been held in this manner, as the sharp corner of the cross is worn down much smoother in the finger area.
I know these obsevations are pointless from an historical point of view, but it may help us understand this specific ring shaping.

I must thank all for sharing in this discussion!!

Best,
Richard.

[ariel]

If Jim's info about the Italian predecessors of these guards is correct ( and I tend always to believe him!), then the "Allah" theory becomes even less probable.

[Pukka Bundook]

I agree that Italian and Allah don't really go together!

But as can be plainly seen, this is not an Italian style hilt. This in my mind does not mean that there are no Italian influences here.
The way I see it, An Italian hilt has certain merits, and these merits could have been incorporated into a locally manufactured hilt.

The Italian hilt has the advantage of being able to wrap the index finger over the cross, and still be protected by the ring.
If this was seen as an advantage and incorpoated in the hilt in question, then it is merely an incorporation of the Idea, and not incorporation of actual design.
The local design/style could have just been worked around the sound principles of the italian style..........Therefore the tight little knuckle-guard and "Allah" could be incorporated as well as anything else!

But then again What do I know?!!!

[BSMStar]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

The name stamped in the blade attempts to say 'Genoa'...

Jim... You may want to consider "Seiol" (сеиол is Cyrillic isn't it).

It would seem they would have stamped "геноа" if they wanted Genoa. Just a gut feeling...

[Jim McDougall]

Thanks very much Ariel ! Much appreciated.

You are right Richard, this is not an Italian style hilt. It is a locally produced hilt with stylized influence believed to derive from early Italian hilts. As I had noted, the ring guards and developing complex quillon arrangements on many Italian hilts may be seen in rudimentary form in many of these sa'if hilts. The influence of these Italian hilts were diffused widely, typically via Venetian trade routes.

BSMStar,
I am not a linquist so I can only presume you are right that this word is not Cyrillic. However, in transcribing words or inscriptions on trade blades or native blades, spelling and letter form are typically anything but correct.
This can often be seen for example on even Solingen blades which sought to duplicate mottos or makers names from other countries. The spellings, letter forms etc. are often incorrect, and as native makers copied from the trade blades, the digression became even more acute.
My suggestion was that this interpretation on this blade simply attempted to mimic the 'Genoa' often seen on certain blades.

All best regards,
Jim

[ariel]

I fully agree. No Cyrillic here!!!
It is just a not very literate attempt to imitate foreign letters.
They also imitated Polish, German and Hungarian inscriptions with rather comic results, forged Solingen and Hungarian markings with very local flavor etc.
On the other hand, Europeans exported gazillions of sword blades inscribed "Fringia", a place that, to my knowledge, never existed ( correct me, please!). This was a corruption of Feringhi ( foreighner, European) just to convince the "locals" that they were buying a real import stuff! Come to think of it, not much difference between the two approaches

[BSMStar]

I am not trying to assert what is right or wrong… just a consideration (although, the letters are legitimate Cyrillic letters).

Do an internet search for Seiol… it is a real word and a name.

Best regards,

Wayne

[Mark]

Originally Posted by katana

I may be 'digging up' old ground but the 'guard' shape suggests 'Allah'.
Fist pic is 'Allah' , second is the symbol on its side to match hilt of the third picture.

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

[katana]

Originally Posted by Mark

I see the resemblance, but for that matter it also resembles the sacred syllable "Om" (aum):

One side Allah.....the otherside the sacred 'Om' Perhaps the maker of this hilt wanted to 'double the divine protection' for the owner

Well noted, Mark