Quick question _ sudanese kaskara

Drabant1701 · 4th May 2017, 08:12 PM

I have purchased my first kaskara. I must admit that my knowlage about these swords is very limited. I am also a little suprised how much sword I actually got for my money. It really quite large (106cm) and heavy.

So I would like to know if anyone could point me towards the age of the sword.
I know these swords kan be anything from 19th century to late 20th century.
Any other information you can share about the sword would also be appreciated. Sorry about the fuzzy picture.

colin henshaw · 5th May 2017, 08:56 AM

There are others on the forum who know more about these than me, but it looks a good old sword... congratulations. I would say its mid to late 19th century.

Hopefully someone will be able to translate the inscription, and give you more information.

Iain · 5th May 2017, 01:11 PM

Good example, its 19th century. The blade is from the Solingen maker Peter Kull and a pattern from the mid 19th century.

Can't help on the inscription but usually these are verses from the Koran.

This a nice example of a typical Solingen export blade, simple but well made that were sent in the thousands to Africa.

Drabant1701 · 5th May 2017, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iain

Good example, its 19th century. The blade is from the Solingen maker Peter Kull and a pattern from the mid 19th century.

Can't help on the inscription but usually these are verses from the Koran.

This a nice example of a typical Solingen export blade, simple but well made that were sent in the thousands to Africa.

Thank you very much Ian! That is more information than I could have hoped for. I am curious as to how you know that it is a blade from Peter Kull.

Iain · 6th May 2017, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drabant1701

Thank you very much Ian! That is more information than I could have hoped for. I am curious as to how you know that it is a blade from Peter Kull.

The fly, lion and globus cruciger stamps are a combination known to have been used by Kull and appear in one of the blade mark compendiums. I'll see if I can dig up a scan.

Quite a few blade of this exact pattern can be found in kaskara and more occasionally takouba. Sometimes the stamps were locally filled with copper.

Edster · 6th May 2017, 04:42 PM

I usually defer to Iain's superior knowledge and experience, but the blade doesn't necessarily look to me like a factory forged piece as would have been made in Solingen. It looks to be pretty (too?) thick for a few inches near the guard, but does appear to taper toward the tip. Is the blade stiff or flexible?
Also, the maker's marks and inscriptions are deep and don't appear to made into a hardened surface. Could the blade be made of a softer steel closer to wrought iron and produced outside a factory setting? Please correct me if my ignorance is showing.

Regards,
Ed

Iain · 6th May 2017, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I usually defer to Iain's superior knowledge and experience, but the blade doesn't necessarily look to me like a factory forged piece as would have been made in Solingen. It looks to be pretty (too?) thick for a few inches near the guard, but does appear to taper toward the tip. Is the blade stiff or flexible?
Also, the maker's marks and inscriptions are deep and don't appear to made into a hardened surface. Could the blade be made of a softer steel closer to wrought iron and produced outside a factory setting? Please correct me if my ignorance is showing.

Regards,
Ed

Hi Ed, I've seen 5 or 6 of these over the years, all of the same profile. Rudimentary to a degree, but cheap to knock out I'd imagine. The stamps would be done hot I believe.

Drabant1701 · 6th May 2017, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I usually defer to Iain's superior knowledge and experience, but the blade doesn't necessarily look to me like a factory forged piece as would have been made in Solingen. It looks to be pretty (too?) thick for a few inches near the guard, but does appear to taper toward the tip. Is the blade stiff or flexible?
Also, the maker's marks and inscriptions are deep and don't appear to made into a hardened surface. Could the blade be made of a softer steel closer to wrought iron and produced outside a factory setting? Please correct me if my ignorance is showing.

Regards,
Ed

I would say that the blade is flexible.

Edster · 6th May 2017, 11:40 PM

Good call Iain, U D Man! Glad it flexed. I'm always eager to learn.

By the way, the cross guard is of the old-time flared type and well made. I hope someone can translate the engraving. It could be a Mahdi Era piece.

Best,
Ed

Philip · 7th May 2017, 02:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I usually defer to Iain's superior knowledge and experience, but the blade doesn't necessarily look to me like a factory forged piece as would have been made in Solingen. It looks to be pretty (too?) thick for a few inches near the guard, but does appear to taper toward the tip. Is the blade stiff or flexible?
Also, the maker's marks and inscriptions are deep and don't appear to made into a hardened surface. Could the blade be made of a softer steel closer to wrought iron and produced outside a factory setting? Please correct me if my ignorance is showing.

Regards,
Ed

Ed, I too was wondering if this blade could in fact be pre-Industrial Revolution, an older handforged one. After all, the Solingen blade industry does go a long way back.

As to stamped makers marks, my experience with earlier blades (late medieval through 17th cent. has shown that:
1. Blades were not quenched all the way back to the hilt. The forte (around the ricasso) was intentionally left softer but more resilient to avoid brittleness in an area that absorbs shock from parrying, and which has a natural stress point, i.e. the junction between the tang and the shoulders of the blade. After all, this part of a blade was of no use for cutting so the ability of its edges to stay sharp was not an issue.
2. Contrary to the common misconception that only Eastern blades were differentially hardened (at the edges, with a softer back), I note from observation that European smiths were well aware of the concept as well and it is apparent on quite a bit of their output, revealed by color differences produced by etchants and verified by physical hardness tests.

I have several rapiers and broadswords in my own collection which have deep stamps near midline at the lower fortes of their blades.

Drabant1701 · 7th May 2017, 08:38 AM

Thank you again for your time and knowledge.

I have some more information. There is actually text on both sides of the blade, I have not noticed before because it is barly visable, it appers to by similar to the one in the earlier photos I posted. There is also a star close to that text that i slightly more visable, I have added a photo of it. There is also a makers mark identical identical to the first one posted on the oposite side under the crossguard, it is a bit higher up then the first.

Iain · 7th May 2017, 07:46 PM

The star is locally engraved (rather than stamped).

I know its tempting to imagine that due to the somewhat cruder look of this blade its not an industrial product. However even prior to the industriall revolution water powered trip hammers and grinders were the norm for forges in Medieval Italy and Germany. Some are still around, at least in Northern Italy around Belluno. There was no massive effort to refine the lines, fullers etc. on these trade blades, so they do look a bit crude. However, having handled quite a few of the single fuller and triple fuller patterns from the 19th century, the difference in profile to earlier blades from the 18th, 17th is quite pronounced. The 19th century blades, particularly this Kull pattern has a very flat profile with almost no lenticular cross section. Of course when you go further back the 15th and 14th century examples which very, very occasionally crop up (at least in takouba), the difference become even more pronounced.

See the reference below. The three marks in question are noted as 1847 (72, 73, 74). This is not bad as far as kaskara blades go to be honest!

From memory I think Kull may have been listed as a retailer and could well have outsourced production to multiple forges as his name and marks appear on a wide range of blades including military sabres.

Jim McDougall · 8th May 2017, 03:18 AM

Iain, I recall our discussions several years back, and we talked about the Solingen marketing acumen, and the potential of these kinds of blades destined for North African interests. The groupings of these long venerated markings from earlier smiths and blades were often keenly appreciated by the traders at these entrepots in Africa as imbuements of power and quality (=magic).

As with most 'trade' weapons to native clientele in colonial situations, the quality was often subordinate to the typically notable quality weapons for the European markets.

As we earlier noted, the overblown Solingen industry pretty much ran into steep decline with the rather abrupt end of the Franco-Prussian war and the shops scrambled to find sources for their wares.

4th May 2017, 08:12 PM	#1
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Quick question _ sudanese kaskara I have purchased my first kaskara. I must admit that my knowlage about these swords is very limited. I am also a little suprised how much sword I actually got for my money. It really quite large (106cm) and heavy. So I would like to know if anyone could point me towards the age of the sword. I know these swords kan be anything from 19th century to late 20th century. Any other information you can share about the sword would also be appreciated. Sorry about the fuzzy picture. Attached Images

7th May 2017, 08:38 AM	#11
Drabant1701 Member Join Date: Apr 2015 Location: Sweden Posts: 181	Thank you again for your time and knowledge. I have some more information. There is actually text on both sides of the blade, I have not noticed before because it is barly visable, it appers to by similar to the one in the earlier photos I posted. There is also a star close to that text that i slightly more visable, I have added a photo of it. There is also a makers mark identical identical to the first one posted on the oposite side under the crossguard, it is a bit higher up then the first. Attached Images

7th May 2017, 07:46 PM	#12
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	The star is locally engraved (rather than stamped). I know its tempting to imagine that due to the somewhat cruder look of this blade its not an industrial product. However even prior to the industriall revolution water powered trip hammers and grinders were the norm for forges in Medieval Italy and Germany. Some are still around, at least in Northern Italy around Belluno. There was no massive effort to refine the lines, fullers etc. on these trade blades, so they do look a bit crude. However, having handled quite a few of the single fuller and triple fuller patterns from the 19th century, the difference in profile to earlier blades from the 18th, 17th is quite pronounced. The 19th century blades, particularly this Kull pattern has a very flat profile with almost no lenticular cross section. Of course when you go further back the 15th and 14th century examples which very, very occasionally crop up (at least in takouba), the difference become even more pronounced. See the reference below. The three marks in question are noted as 1847 (72, 73, 74). This is not bad as far as kaskara blades go to be honest! From memory I think Kull may have been listed as a retailer and could well have outsourced production to multiple forges as his name and marks appear on a wide range of blades including military sabres. Attached Images

5th May 2017, 08:56 AM	#2
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	There are others on the forum who know more about these than me, but it looks a good old sword... congratulations. I would say its mid to late 19th century. Hopefully someone will be able to translate the inscription, and give you more information.

5th May 2017, 01:11 PM	#3
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Good example, its 19th century. The blade is from the Solingen maker Peter Kull and a pattern from the mid 19th century. Can't help on the inscription but usually these are verses from the Koran. This a nice example of a typical Solingen export blade, simple but well made that were sent in the thousands to Africa.

6th May 2017, 04:42 PM	#6
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	I usually defer to Iain's superior knowledge and experience, but the blade doesn't necessarily look to me like a factory forged piece as would have been made in Solingen. It looks to be pretty (too?) thick for a few inches near the guard, but does appear to taper toward the tip. Is the blade stiff or flexible? Also, the maker's marks and inscriptions are deep and don't appear to made into a hardened surface. Could the blade be made of a softer steel closer to wrought iron and produced outside a factory setting? Please correct me if my ignorance is showing. Regards, Ed

6th May 2017, 11:40 PM	#9
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	Good call Iain, U D Man! Glad it flexed. I'm always eager to learn. By the way, the cross guard is of the old-time flared type and well made. I hope someone can translate the engraving. It could be a Mahdi Era piece. Best, Ed

8th May 2017, 03:18 AM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Iain, I recall our discussions several years back, and we talked about the Solingen marketing acumen, and the potential of these kinds of blades destined for North African interests. The groupings of these long venerated markings from earlier smiths and blades were often keenly appreciated by the traders at these entrepots in Africa as imbuements of power and quality (=magic). As with most 'trade' weapons to native clientele in colonial situations, the quality was often subordinate to the typically notable quality weapons for the European markets. As we earlier noted, the overblown Solingen industry pretty much ran into steep decline with the rather abrupt end of the Franco-Prussian war and the shops scrambled to find sources for their wares.