Spanish cup hilt rapier - Caribbean hilt? Need some expertise to help me date sword

Flasheart · 26th February 2020, 01:13 AM

Hi guys,

Just joined the forum although I have used it in the past for research. After returning from Peru and experiencing the Spanish conquest history, I have purchased a Spanish colonial cup hilt rapier.

I seek your assistance in identifying the era of manufacturing and any other identifying features of this ‘TOLEDO’ marked sword.

Mike

fernando · 26th February 2020, 12:24 PM

Welcome to the forum, Mike

.
It looks like the whole phrase on the blade reads IN TOLEDO ...
Are you sure it doesn't have a different writing on the other face ... like a name ?
And are there no marks on the ricasso, under the cup bowl ?

.

fernando · 26th February 2020, 01:49 PM

17th century would be the date ... ?
The type Spanish homeland, not colonial ... ?

Battara · 26th February 2020, 06:02 PM

I'll move this to the Euro forum for more discussion.

Flasheart · 28th February 2020, 11:03 PM

Guys,

Thanks for the feedback.

The marking on the blade is the same on both sides 'TOLEDO'. I cannot see any trace of an 'IN' preceding the TOLEDO marking, and anything preceding TOLEDO would impinge on the fuller.

I cannot see any marking on the ricasso or inside the cup.

The sword is covered in what looks like a very very old dried grease?.

I also note that the cup shows some delamination? or is it a plating over an iron cup?

Flasheart · 29th February 2020, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

17th century would be the date ... ?
The type Spanish homeland, not colonial ... ?

Fernando, can you tell me the identifying features to confirm 17th century rather then later, and mainland rather than colonies?

Mike

fernando · 1st March 2020, 04:43 PM

No expertise here, Mike ; only judging by the few swords of this type i have in my little collection and what has been said about them.
No doubt some smiths marks would help a whole lot.
Maybe if you wash that grease and other stuff that is covering it we (you) will have a brighter look; delamination seems not probable ... to me.
Also perhaps more clear pictures would help.
Meanhwile you can use the Search button above to read some (plenty) information about these cup hilt/hilted swords.

Flasheart · 2nd March 2020, 11:45 PM

Guys,

I read on one of the other posts that a Spanish sword had been preserved with olive oil. Was this a period technique. Maybe the dried 'grease' on this sword is some organic oil like olive oil?

Victrix · 3rd March 2020, 01:53 PM

More likely linseed oil.

fernando · 9th March 2020, 02:30 PM

I remember Michael (Matchlock) mentioning olive oil as a god solution for preserving blades, on basis that, if the Roman soldiers used to do it, it shouldn't be a bad method.
I wouldn't know about Spanish; maybe the post you have read was not about their usual resource but influenced by Michael's conversations.

26th February 2020, 01:13 AM	#1
Flasheart Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Posts: 4	Spanish cup hilt rapier - Caribbean hilt? Need some expertise to help me date sword Hi guys, Just joined the forum although I have used it in the past for research. After returning from Peru and experiencing the Spanish conquest history, I have purchased a Spanish colonial cup hilt rapier. I seek your assistance in identifying the era of manufacturing and any other identifying features of this ‘TOLEDO’ marked sword. Mike Attached Images

26th February 2020, 12:24 PM	#2
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Mike . It looks like the whole phrase on the blade reads IN TOLEDO ... Are you sure it doesn't have a different writing on the other face ... like a name ? And are there no marks on the ricasso, under the cup bowl ? . Attached Images

26th February 2020, 01:49 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	17th century would be the date ... ? The type Spanish homeland, not colonial ... ?

26th February 2020, 06:02 PM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,226	I'll move this to the Euro forum for more discussion.

28th February 2020, 11:03 PM	#5
Flasheart Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Posts: 4	Guys, Thanks for the feedback. The marking on the blade is the same on both sides 'TOLEDO'. I cannot see any trace of an 'IN' preceding the TOLEDO marking, and anything preceding TOLEDO would impinge on the fuller. I cannot see any marking on the ricasso or inside the cup. The sword is covered in what looks like a very very old dried grease?. I also note that the cup shows some delamination? or is it a plating over an iron cup?

1st March 2020, 04:43 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	No expertise here, Mike ; only judging by the few swords of this type i have in my little collection and what has been said about them. No doubt some smiths marks would help a whole lot. Maybe if you wash that grease and other stuff that is covering it we (you) will have a brighter look; delamination seems not probable ... to me. Also perhaps more clear pictures would help. Meanhwile you can use the Search button above to read some (plenty) information about these cup hilt/hilted swords.

2nd March 2020, 11:45 PM	#8
Flasheart Member Join Date: Feb 2020 Posts: 4	Guys, I read on one of the other posts that a Spanish sword had been preserved with olive oil. Was this a period technique. Maybe the dried 'grease' on this sword is some organic oil like olive oil?

3rd March 2020, 01:53 PM	#9
Victrix Member Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: Sweden Posts: 712	More likely linseed oil.

9th March 2020, 02:30 PM	#10
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	I remember Michael (Matchlock) mentioning olive oil as a god solution for preserving blades, on basis that, if the Roman soldiers used to do it, it shouldn't be a bad method. I wouldn't know about Spanish; maybe the post you have read was not about their usual resource but influenced by Michael's conversations.