snake or frigate bird

Tim Simmons · 10th May 2009, 08:04 PM

Its that man agian.

Just ebayed this staff, 50 inches tall so not a walking stick. A gamble on a small punt. To me it looks like the Solomon Islands. Looks like clam shell eyes. The sellar had in mind, snakes and barley twist, which to me is antique dealer canes and furniture. Will follow up when here.

fearn · 10th May 2009, 09:19 PM

What makes you think frigate bird? While I think the head looks lizard-ish, I'd think that it was a snake, from the rest of the staff.

David · 10th May 2009, 09:49 PM

Nice staff! Yes, my guess would also be that it's intended to be a snake given the rather serpentine body of the rest of the staff.

VANDOO · 11th May 2009, 01:42 AM

IF MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY THE FRIGATE BIRD HAS A HOOKED PREDATORY BEAK. SO I WOULD HAVE TO GO WITH SNAKE ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE TWISTED BODY OF THE STICK. NICE ONE.

josh stout · 11th May 2009, 03:08 PM

The marks on its head are similar to those on many cobra species.
Josh

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2009, 04:33 PM

It is not a frigate bird well certianly not as depicted on the Solomon Islands. All images I have from the Solomons have the hook. I am not saying it is not a snake. I am just exploring what we see and not taking for granted what we as westerns assume straight away. Just because the main part is a spiral does not mean it is a snake? The eye sokets could be avian? The pattern to the back of the head is interesting, could be part of the wood? As soon as I have it I will follow up. In the time being I will try to show other similar things. These pictures will do for starters. From Anthony JP Meyer "Oceanic Art" the staff is 3 inches longer than the one I hope to recieve.

Tim Simmons · 11th May 2009, 06:56 PM

I have found some very intersting information about people known as Keraki Papuans. The link is worth exploring more by clicking on Keraki at the top of the page. To cut if short the first beings {Gainjin} returned the the sky all except Bugal the snake and Warger the crocodile who still haunt the bush today. So I am starting to form the idea that it is indeed a snake. With very little contact untill 1920-39s it looks very much like it should, if it is that.

http://www.everyculture.com/Oceania/...e-Culture.html

Nick Wardigo · 12th May 2009, 01:35 PM

Attaching an image of the hood of a Spectacled Cobra.

josh stout · 12th May 2009, 06:07 PM

Thanks Nick, that is the sort of thing I was thinking of, but the spectacled cobra and the monocled cobra are not quite the same as what is on the stick, they just make me think that there may be a cobra with the right pattern. I also wonder what the pattern would look like when the hood is down. Perhaps it would be more like the stick pattern.

I have heard many stories of native peoples who cannot identify a bird from picture, or in some cases even dead, but they can recognize it high in the trees from the rustle. I suspect that many times animals are difficult for us to ID from ethnographc depictions because what is emphasized is different from what we see in pictures. For example, there may not have been enough wood for the hood of a cobra, so the carver put the cobra mark on, but depicted the mark as it would be when the hood is down. Something obvious to any local can be mystifying to us.
Josh

Tim Simmons · 12th May 2009, 06:24 PM

Very interesting. I had hoped to have it today, perhaps tomorrow. From these pictures it is difficult to see what has made the mark on the back of the head. I feel if you are trying to show other people a cobra, it cannot be achieved with showing the hood. Perhaps it is the narrow neck ?mark cobra

but that is just being silly. I feel pretty sure it is not Asian or African. I cannot wait to get my hands on it, if only to see what material makes the eyes. If it all turns out to be rubbish well all I lost is about two double burgers and ordinary fries.

fearn · 12th May 2009, 06:53 PM

Just to get this conversation going in an extremely biological direction, I'd like to note that the cobra family (elapidae) is extremely common in the Australasian region, and includes such fun snakes as death adders and taipans.

Some of them look like cobras, some do not. Bottom line is that the elapids are widespread through Africa, Asia, Australia, and the central islands of Melanesia, so a cobra-like mark on a snake cane doesn't preclude it from coming from Melanesia.

My 0.00002 kina,

F

David · 12th May 2009, 07:54 PM

Tim, i think it is clear to see that regardless of what the eyes are made of or the origin of this staff, it isn't really possible that it is "rubbish". It's a fine folk art staff no matter how you look at it.
I also think that with folk art we can't get too fussy over anatomical correctness. Part of what makes it folk art. I think that in all probability it was intended to be a snake, but nailing it down to the exact species from the carved features is not very likely. No real snake looks like this.

Tim Simmons · 13th May 2009, 01:59 PM

Its here but I do not know what to make of it. I fear it is a tourist thing. Thats three duds in a row

I just keep the Fiji staff in mind and keep trying.

David · 13th May 2009, 10:00 PM

Tim, what about this staff gives you the feeling that it is a tourist thing? Looks like good folk art to me. what were you expecting or hoping for that isn't there when the staff is in hand?

Tim Simmons · 14th May 2009, 06:33 PM

David thank you for your encouraging words, perhaps tourist may have been a bit harsh and hasty. "Tribal" for want of a better word, culture, art production and materials are not preserved in aspic. However there could be a fine line between "folk art" and "Tourist". Looking again at the copper base to the staff and how carefully it has been set into the wood I might be prepared to think there is pride in the manufacture. The plastic eyes may have been thought as rather cool by the maker. The ? mark looks like a stain and quite lightly applied. The actual wood is a natual twisty root or vine strong but bendy. There is minimal shaping to the twist. Perhaps "fern" might suggest possible names and origin. The wood is pale in colour the dark colour you see in the pictures is from a lacquer. I cannot tell if it is a natural one or industrially produced. I can say that for the money it is starting to grow on me. I have a large Thai darb knife put together with salvaged aluminium and chewing gum or an epoxy resin. Just because you are poor in the 20th century does not mean artists stop making artifacts for cultural use? Anyway here are some more pictures. I could still think it not Indian?

fearn · 14th May 2009, 08:21 PM

Hi Tim,

Got me. I'm guessing some sort of tropical liana, possibly including a rattan or a grape vine, for the major part of the cane. It's definitely not a root. As for the wood at the bottom, I haven't a clue. If that purple color is natural, that would limit the choices a bit, not that I know what they are off-hand.

David · 14th May 2009, 09:19 PM

Tim, are you sure the eyes are plastic? Looks like some sort of stone to me.

This type of staff could have been made anywhere. Snake have cultural significance all over the world. I see no specific cultural indicators here. But i do like the staff.

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2009, 04:11 PM

The eyes are plastic/nylon material, to be sure I tested with a hot pin.

fern, the purple part is a piece of copper pipe. If you look very carefully you can see some thought and effort has gone into stretching and fettling the pipe to fit the wood. It is this that makes me feel that it may not be a tourist thing. Also it does actually feel good to hold. I have had Congo knives with plastic materials attached as decoration. I think I will google Liana.

Tim Simmons · 15th May 2009, 04:51 PM

Looks like some type of Liana to me now. That means it could come from many places even India but reminds me of African work?

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jan102009/58.pdf

fearn · 15th May 2009, 07:47 PM

Ah, thanks Tim. I see the copper now. Weird that I saw that as wood first.

Another interesting thing is the lack of corrosion on the copper.

This looks like the kind of stick I'd make for fun out of an interesting piece of wood, with a pipe ferrule and a carved head. I agree, it's probably not a tourist item.

Best,

F

10th May 2009, 08:04 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	snake or frigate bird Its that man agian. Just ebayed this staff, 50 inches tall so not a walking stick. A gamble on a small punt. To me it looks like the Solomon Islands. Looks like clam shell eyes. The sellar had in mind, snakes and barley twist, which to me is antique dealer canes and furniture. Will follow up when here. Attached Images

11th May 2009, 04:33 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	It is not a frigate bird well certianly not as depicted on the Solomon Islands. All images I have from the Solomons have the hook. I am not saying it is not a snake. I am just exploring what we see and not taking for granted what we as westerns assume straight away. Just because the main part is a spiral does not mean it is a snake? The eye sokets could be avian? The pattern to the back of the head is interesting, could be part of the wood? As soon as I have it I will follow up. In the time being I will try to show other similar things. These pictures will do for starters. From Anthony JP Meyer "Oceanic Art" the staff is 3 inches longer than the one I hope to recieve. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 11th May 2009 at 04:58 PM.

11th May 2009, 06:56 PM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Interesting stuff I have found some very intersting information about people known as Keraki Papuans. The link is worth exploring more by clicking on Keraki at the top of the page. To cut if short the first beings {Gainjin} returned the the sky all except Bugal the snake and Warger the crocodile who still haunt the bush today. So I am starting to form the idea that it is indeed a snake. With very little contact untill 1920-39s it looks very much like it should, if it is that. http://www.everyculture.com/Oceania/...e-Culture.html

12th May 2009, 01:35 PM	#8
Nick Wardigo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 54	Attaching an image of the hood of a Spectacled Cobra. Attached Images

12th May 2009, 06:24 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Very interesting. I had hoped to have it today, perhaps tomorrow. From these pictures it is difficult to see what has made the mark on the back of the head. I feel if you are trying to show other people a cobra, it cannot be achieved with showing the hood. Perhaps it is the narrow neck ?mark cobra but that is just being silly. I feel pretty sure it is not Asian or African. I cannot wait to get my hands on it, if only to see what material makes the eyes. If it all turns out to be rubbish well all I lost is about two double burgers and ordinary fries. Attached Images

10th May 2009, 09:19 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	What makes you think frigate bird? While I think the head looks lizard-ish, I'd think that it was a snake, from the rest of the staff.

10th May 2009, 09:49 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Nice staff! Yes, my guess would also be that it's intended to be a snake given the rather serpentine body of the rest of the staff.

11th May 2009, 01:42 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	IF MEMORY SERVES ME CORRECTLY THE FRIGATE BIRD HAS A HOOKED PREDATORY BEAK. SO I WOULD HAVE TO GO WITH SNAKE ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE TWISTED BODY OF THE STICK. NICE ONE.

11th May 2009, 03:08 PM	#5
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The marks on its head are similar to those on many cobra species. Josh

12th May 2009, 06:07 PM	#9
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	Thanks Nick, that is the sort of thing I was thinking of, but the spectacled cobra and the monocled cobra are not quite the same as what is on the stick, they just make me think that there may be a cobra with the right pattern. I also wonder what the pattern would look like when the hood is down. Perhaps it would be more like the stick pattern. I have heard many stories of native peoples who cannot identify a bird from picture, or in some cases even dead, but they can recognize it high in the trees from the rustle. I suspect that many times animals are difficult for us to ID from ethnographc depictions because what is emphasized is different from what we see in pictures. For example, there may not have been enough wood for the hood of a cobra, so the carver put the cobra mark on, but depicted the mark as it would be when the hood is down. Something obvious to any local can be mystifying to us. Josh

12th May 2009, 06:53 PM	#11
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Just to get this conversation going in an extremely biological direction, I'd like to note that the cobra family (elapidae) is extremely common in the Australasian region, and includes such fun snakes as death adders and taipans. Some of them look like cobras, some do not. Bottom line is that the elapids are widespread through Africa, Asia, Australia, and the central islands of Melanesia, so a cobra-like mark on a snake cane doesn't preclude it from coming from Melanesia. My 0.00002 kina, F

12th May 2009, 07:54 PM	#12
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Tim, i think it is clear to see that regardless of what the eyes are made of or the origin of this staff, it isn't really possible that it is "rubbish". It's a fine folk art staff no matter how you look at it. I also think that with folk art we can't get too fussy over anatomical correctness. Part of what makes it folk art. I think that in all probability it was intended to be a snake, but nailing it down to the exact species from the carved features is not very likely. No real snake looks like this.

13th May 2009, 01:59 PM	#13
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Its here but I do not know what to make of it. I fear it is a tourist thing. Thats three duds in a row I just keep the Fiji staff in mind and keep trying.

13th May 2009, 10:00 PM	#14
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Tim, what about this staff gives you the feeling that it is a tourist thing? Looks like good folk art to me. what were you expecting or hoping for that isn't there when the staff is in hand?

14th May 2009, 06:33 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	David thank you for your encouraging words, perhaps tourist may have been a bit harsh and hasty. "Tribal" for want of a better word, culture, art production and materials are not preserved in aspic. However there could be a fine line between "folk art" and "Tourist". Looking again at the copper base to the staff and how carefully it has been set into the wood I might be prepared to think there is pride in the manufacture. The plastic eyes may have been thought as rather cool by the maker. The ? mark looks like a stain and quite lightly applied. The actual wood is a natual twisty root or vine strong but bendy. There is minimal shaping to the twist. Perhaps "fern" might suggest possible names and origin. The wood is pale in colour the dark colour you see in the pictures is from a lacquer. I cannot tell if it is a natural one or industrially produced. I can say that for the money it is starting to grow on me. I have a large Thai darb knife put together with salvaged aluminium and chewing gum or an epoxy resin. Just because you are poor in the 20th century does not mean artists stop making artifacts for cultural use? Anyway here are some more pictures. I could still think it not Indian? Attached Images

14th May 2009, 08:21 PM	#16
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Tim, Got me. I'm guessing some sort of tropical liana, possibly including a rattan or a grape vine, for the major part of the cane. It's definitely not a root. As for the wood at the bottom, I haven't a clue. If that purple color is natural, that would limit the choices a bit, not that I know what they are off-hand.

14th May 2009, 09:19 PM	#17
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,121	Tim, are you sure the eyes are plastic? Looks like some sort of stone to me. This type of staff could have been made anywhere. Snake have cultural significance all over the world. I see no specific cultural indicators here. But i do like the staff.

15th May 2009, 04:11 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	The eyes are plastic/nylon material, to be sure I tested with a hot pin. fern, the purple part is a piece of copper pipe. If you look very carefully you can see some thought and effort has gone into stretching and fettling the pipe to fit the wood. It is this that makes me feel that it may not be a tourist thing. Also it does actually feel good to hold. I have had Congo knives with plastic materials attached as decoration. I think I will google Liana.

15th May 2009, 04:51 PM	#19
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Looks like some type of Liana to me now. That means it could come from many places even India but reminds me of African work? http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jan102009/58.pdf

15th May 2009, 07:47 PM	#20
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Ah, thanks Tim. I see the copper now. Weird that I saw that as wood first. Another interesting thing is the lack of corrosion on the copper. This looks like the kind of stick I'd make for fun out of an interesting piece of wood, with a pipe ferrule and a carved head. I agree, it's probably not a tourist item. Best, F