Really Good kindjals - where are they ?

Rivkin · 10th December 2004, 04:08 PM

Dear All,

I'm sorry for probably a stupid question - I'm really fond of caucasian kindjals. Unfortunately by far most of the pieces I've seen are not of the quality I expect - soft steel, not damascus, sometimes in 500$ silver kubachi scabbards, whethter it's on ebay or oriental-arms.

What I really would like to know, is how hard is it to find a real dagger - not Bazalai, but damascus of a good maker. And how is it possible to see if it's damascus if the dagger is badly out of polish and basically covered with patina.

Thank you very much,

K.Rivkin

ariel · 10th December 2004, 09:58 PM

Basically, Caucasian swordmakers rarely made damascus blades. It was just too damn expensive and time consuming and the profit margin was low. They did some differential tempering, though, and there are some Caucasian swords with real "Hamon".
But, as we discussed before, most of their manufacture went to Russian officers almost as souvenirs. Under the circumstances, there was no sense to waste time on quality blades: gorgeous silver scabbard would be the main selling point.
What then about really old blades, made before the Russian invasion ( military and cultural)? Sadly, they were remounted, reforged, lost, rusted.... The locals had so little iron around that every unused piece was recycled. That's the reason why one can find really old blades mainly in the Russian museums, and those were acquired long before the 1917 Revolution.....
The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 03:07 PM

I have not seen any kindjal with real damasus blade. If anyone has please post it here. I have seen some etched damasus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

This is not quite true. After the fall of Soviet Union a lot of great Caucasian weapons exported to western market. But this is over I think. Maybe a reverse route has started.

Also there is a real factory of fakes on. Somewhere in Georgia as far as I can tell.

My kindjals are here

ariel · 11th December 2004, 04:15 PM

What I meant by "tourist pieces" is that the kindjals produced at the end of the 19th-beginning of 20th century were not meant for fighting anymore: the nature of warfare has changed. They were part of the uniform (Cossack units or ethnic units such as the mainly Chechen "Wild Division" of the Tsarist military) and were often viewed as an impediment rather than weaponry ( see B.E. Frolov "Oruzhiye Kubanskikh Kasakov", ie "Weapons of the Kuban Cossacks"). They were also a part of the national dress of Caucasian nations and as such, were worn mainly for ceremonial functions and they were also made as souvenirs and artistic objects (many still have the inscription "KABKA3"). Nothing bad or dishonorable about it, but they were just no longer real weapons meant for battle. Just as AK-47 obliterated the need in Kaskaras and Shamshirs, Mosin-Nagant rifle made the Caucasian kindjals obsolete....
Still, the memory of their real function was still fresh at that time and the quality of work was truly superb. In cotrast, after so many years of neglect and virtual ban on the manufacture of any weaponry in the former USSR the new pieces mass produced in Georgia these days have no meaning at all and, in my opinion, do not even qualify as collector pieces. Just look at their blades and vomit!

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 04:51 PM

Well, I have dozen or so kindjals with a real damascus pattern - turkish star night, burly pattern etc. Scabbards are very inexpensive, but the blades are the real beauty, through I strongly suspect 25% of them can be etchings, but others - it's physically impossible to etch starry damascus.

Getting them was tough, and involved in most cases personal contacts. I hope to post some pictures soon.

Lee · 11th December 2004, 05:21 PM

Does anyone know where would this be from?

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 05:45 PM

Damn it. Here we are posing as experience collectors, and Mr.Jones comes with his dagger that is surely a better one.

It's from Dagestan, made most likely by Lak master, can be that master worked outside of Dagestan, but it's unlikely. The date I would guess 1860 and may be a little bit up.

P.S. Sorry for the direct question, but where did you get it ? It seems to be a VERY good piece.

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 05:46 PM

Yet again, as in my experience - the hilt and scabbard are usually simplistic.

Jeff D · 11th December 2004, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rivkin

Yet again, as in my experience - the hilt and scabbard are usually simplistic.

Can someone refresh my memory? I thought I read that the weapons with plain wood hilts were considered tools and not taxed or taken by the Russians / Ottoman, while the ornate hilts where considered weapons instead of tools and were. I can't for the life of me remember where (or even if i read this).

Thanks
Jeff

Rivkin · 11th December 2004, 07:48 PM

It's true in some sence, however there is a different reason for the fact that most damascus blades have simple hilts - they were made prior to 1860, prior to the point when Kubachi hilts and scabbards became "must have" in order to sell it.

Yannis · 11th December 2004, 08:01 PM

Ariel

You have right that late 19th century kindjal became more asthetic than useful objects. But they still could kill someone in close combat or tavern fight. It is the same that happened to yataghans, cretan knifes etc.

We know from history books that some greek guerillas till the end of WWII had swords and big knifes and they USED them in battles.

Dr Jones

Thank you for the picture. It is amazing. Any other damascus kindjal?

Jens Nordlunde · 11th December 2004, 09:28 PM

Many are in closed private collections.

Jens

Rivkin · 12th December 2004, 03:23 AM

I do apologize if my previous posts where poorly mannered - I'm still jelous like hell, this guy is such a beauty !

Lee · 12th December 2004, 05:28 PM

The blade on the one I posted above is just over 36 cm / 14 inches in length and just under 4.5 cm / 1.75 inches wide at the base. The fullers are so deep in this 4.5 mm thick blade that in just a few foci, light will pass through a few pinprick sized holes in the blade where fuller meets fuller. The smith obviously had to remove a lot of metal and did so with great precision. The hilt, though plain, may well be made of rhino horn and is very well shaped and fitted. The iron rivets are nicely faceted and over a cm high. I have never had a scabbard, so unfortunately, this exceedingly sharp dagger is sheathed in newspaper bound with masking tape.

I found it at an arms fair several decades ago; I was told that it was part of a collection of pattern-welded items that was being dispersed.

Rivkin · 12th December 2004, 05:54 PM

Sorry, it's most likely not a rhino horn - I've never seen those used by caucasians. What really puzzles me is that this piece is unsigned - Dagestanians usually do sign their pieces.

FenrisWolf · 6th September 2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee

I have never had a scabbard, so unfortunately, this exceedingly sharp dagger is sheathed in newspaper bound with masking tape.

Might I suggest that you replace the newspaper with some archival acid-free paper, available at any art supply store? Newspaper is by its nature high in acid content and will over time damage that blade badly, no matter how well oiled it is. Given the high quality of the blade, it might also be worthwhile to look into replacing the scabbard with a modern reproduction. It might not be original, but it'd still be better than paper and masking tape!

ausjulius · 6th September 2008, 02:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Basically, Caucasian swordmakers rarely made damascus blades. It was just too damn expensive and time consuming and the profit margin was low. They did some differential tempering, though, and there are some Caucasian swords with real "Hamon".
But, as we discussed before, most of their manufacture went to Russian officers almost as souvenirs. Under the circumstances, there was no sense to waste time on quality blades: gorgeous silver scabbard would be the main selling point.
What then about really old blades, made before the Russian invasion ( military and cultural)? Sadly, they were remounted, reforged, lost, rusted.... The locals had so little iron around that every unused piece was recycled. That's the reason why one can find really old blades mainly in the Russian museums, and those were acquired long before the 1917 Revolution.....
The kinjals we see these days are mostly beautiful, classy and expensive tourist pieces.....

i dont know about that , ive seen a tone of bulat and damascus blades museams .. shops or such and the caucasus is littlered with them,, just becasue of the laws surrounding their export,, and the fact this area is a uncommon destination for tourists for some good reasons,, they dont make their way out so much.. proably there is alot to be found also in turkey with the large amount of imergration in the 19th century ,
but shurly there is plenty old kindjals with fine blades to be had....

kahnjar1 · 6th September 2008, 04:19 AM

Picked this up in a local auction last week.
Would appreciate comments. Overall length is 24 3/4". Blade 17 7/8".