Which pamor is this?

VVV · 15th July 2014, 10:08 AM

I just received this Cirebon keris but I am not sure which pamor it is (or is it a mix of bonang rinenteng and mayang mekar)?

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2014, 02:26 PM

This blade displays very clear evidence that it was produced in the Sumenep area of Madura.

The entire keris may, or may not be of Cirebon origin, but the blade was not made in Cirebon.

I cannot name the pamor, I believe it to be an artistic innovation.

VVV · 15th July 2014, 02:38 PM

Thanks Alan,

I am a bit surprised that it is of recent (?) origin based on its supposed provenance.
Could you please develop the main points of evidence for it being Maduran?

Anyway, if it is an innovation it explains why I had a hard time to find the pamor.

Michael

semar · 15th July 2014, 03:01 PM

i will say sekar lampes

A. G. Maisey · 15th July 2014, 04:34 PM

I cannot say with any certainty that it is recent, that is, recent in the sense of since 1980 --- I would need to handle it to give an opinion on that, but the gandik and kembang kacang are very typical of Madura, the rondha is a form frequently found in Madura keris, and this style of pamor work is also common from Sumenep, both pre-WWII and since the revival. It is very difficult to assess iron from a photo, but that too has the appearance of iron used in some Madura keris.

I note that Semar has suggested sekar lampes, but I do not think we can accept that, because sekar lampes is a pamor miring, not a pamor mlumah, and this keris is pamor mlumah with manipulated surface.

Recently there seems to have been a lot of interest in Cirebon keris, and I have seen a lot of photos and heard stories of keris of "Cirebon" tangguh --- its almost as if Cirebon keris have become much more plentiful than they have been for the last 30 years or so.

I would most humbly suggest that before anybody nominates a blade for tangguh Cirebon that they might do well to look at what Ngabehi Wirosoekadgo has to say about tangguh Cirebon in "Serat Panangguhing Duwung", and then to spend a little time with "Silsilah Keturunan Empu Tanah Jawa".

There is no problem at all in nominating a complete keris as Cirebon, but almost invariably that complete keris will have a blade from some place other than Cirebon.

Jean · 23rd July 2014, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would most humbly suggest that before anybody nominates a blade for tangguh Cirebon that they might do well to look at what Ngabehi Wirosoekadgo has to say about tangguh Cirebon in "Serat Panangguhing Duwung", and then to spend a little time with "Silsilah Keturunan Empu Tanah Jawa".

Hello Alan,
Do you know how can we get these publications and is there any translation in English?
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 23rd July 2014, 03:33 PM

Jean, to the best of my knowledge there is no English translation available for either of these works.

"--Panangguhing--" was translated into Indonesian and republished a few years ago, I think. I believe I have a copy of this and I've been trying to find it but I cannot. What I have are a couple of copies of the original, one is a photocopy, and I had a translation done into Indonesian about 30 years ago. Its a bad translation, and the original Javanese uses a lot of words that nobody I know can understand.

"--Silsilah--" has never been translated for public use, nor published for public use, as far as I am aware. However there are lots of copies of it floating around if you know the right people. The problem used to be that the people who had a copy would not make it available to others unless they were very close to them.

A couple of recent books have drawn upon Silsilah, but both authors have made errors in what they have drawn from it.

kulbuntet · 15th August 2014, 07:34 PM

I am not sure, but it could be a not perfect executed or variant of bonang serenteng.

David · 15th August 2014, 11:36 PM

Regardless of age or origin i must say that i do like this keris. The pamor mimicking etch on the front part of the gander is a nice and elegant ensemble touch.

VVV · 17th August 2014, 01:14 PM

Thanks David,

Yes, I like this one, too, even if I don't know which pamor it is (or supposed to be) etc.

Michael

A. G. Maisey · 18th August 2014, 03:09 AM

Yes, agreed, it is a nice keris, not a thing wrong with it, but the blade is not what it is presented as, ie, Cirebon.

15th July 2014, 10:08 AM	#1
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Which pamor is this? I just received this Cirebon keris but I am not sure which pamor it is (or is it a mix of bonang rinenteng and mayang mekar)? Michael Attached Images Last edited by VVV; 15th July 2014 at 10:59 AM.

15th July 2014, 03:01 PM	#4
semar Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 272	i will say sekar lampes Attached Images

15th July 2014, 02:26 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	This blade displays very clear evidence that it was produced in the Sumenep area of Madura. The entire keris may, or may not be of Cirebon origin, but the blade was not made in Cirebon. I cannot name the pamor, I believe it to be an artistic innovation.

15th July 2014, 02:38 PM	#3
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks Alan, I am a bit surprised that it is of recent (?) origin based on its supposed provenance. Could you please develop the main points of evidence for it being Maduran? Anyway, if it is an innovation it explains why I had a hard time to find the pamor. Michael

15th July 2014, 04:34 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	I cannot say with any certainty that it is recent, that is, recent in the sense of since 1980 --- I would need to handle it to give an opinion on that, but the gandik and kembang kacang are very typical of Madura, the rondha is a form frequently found in Madura keris, and this style of pamor work is also common from Sumenep, both pre-WWII and since the revival. It is very difficult to assess iron from a photo, but that too has the appearance of iron used in some Madura keris. I note that Semar has suggested sekar lampes, but I do not think we can accept that, because sekar lampes is a pamor miring, not a pamor mlumah, and this keris is pamor mlumah with manipulated surface. Recently there seems to have been a lot of interest in Cirebon keris, and I have seen a lot of photos and heard stories of keris of "Cirebon" tangguh --- its almost as if Cirebon keris have become much more plentiful than they have been for the last 30 years or so. I would most humbly suggest that before anybody nominates a blade for tangguh Cirebon that they might do well to look at what Ngabehi Wirosoekadgo has to say about tangguh Cirebon in "Serat Panangguhing Duwung", and then to spend a little time with "Silsilah Keturunan Empu Tanah Jawa". There is no problem at all in nominating a complete keris as Cirebon, but almost invariably that complete keris will have a blade from some place other than Cirebon.

23rd July 2014, 03:33 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Jean, to the best of my knowledge there is no English translation available for either of these works. "--Panangguhing--" was translated into Indonesian and republished a few years ago, I think. I believe I have a copy of this and I've been trying to find it but I cannot. What I have are a couple of copies of the original, one is a photocopy, and I had a translation done into Indonesian about 30 years ago. Its a bad translation, and the original Javanese uses a lot of words that nobody I know can understand. "--Silsilah--" has never been translated for public use, nor published for public use, as far as I am aware. However there are lots of copies of it floating around if you know the right people. The problem used to be that the people who had a copy would not make it available to others unless they were very close to them. A couple of recent books have drawn upon Silsilah, but both authors have made errors in what they have drawn from it.

15th August 2014, 07:34 PM	#8
kulbuntet Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Amsterdam, Netherlands Posts: 159	I am not sure, but it could be a not perfect executed or variant of bonang serenteng.

15th August 2014, 11:36 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,123	Regardless of age or origin i must say that i do like this keris. The pamor mimicking etch on the front part of the gander is a nice and elegant ensemble touch.

17th August 2014, 01:14 PM	#10
VVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,637	Thanks David, Yes, I like this one, too, even if I don't know which pamor it is (or supposed to be) etc. Michael

18th August 2014, 03:09 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,892	Yes, agreed, it is a nice keris, not a thing wrong with it, but the blade is not what it is presented as, ie, Cirebon.