? on recently acquired Japanese swords

[knife7knut]

Good morning all:
Haven't posted here in a long time due to a couple of factors;one of which is a lack of material on my part.That changed the other day.
Our home town has an annual city wide garage sale and I found a couple of Japanese swords that I think are significant.I know very little about Japanese arms but I do know quality when I see it and I believe these qualify.
I am not looking to sell them but rather to try and date(approximately)them and maybe find out who made them.One is supposedly signed(the seller had taken one apart and butchered the pin holding the handle on)but I have no pictures of that.I have done nothing to them save wiping the blades down to remove any fingerprints as I want to preserve them as found for now.
Would like to find someone fairly close by(I live in southeast Michigan about 65 miles SW of Detroit)who could give me some opinions on them and possibly an appraisal.
My photographic skills are not the greatest;especially on objects this large,but I have included a couple:an overall shot and a couple of details.Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Sincerely
Ray Smith

[koto]

they are fake from China

[David]

Hey Ray, not shots of the actual sword blades?

[knife7knut]

I tried to photograph them but with very limited success.Here are a couple of closeups.Any hints on getting good pictures of the entire blade?My camera doesn't have a wide angle lens.

[Rich]

Have you removed the tsuka (handle) to see if either or both are signed or dated? The hada (grain) is very prominent, looks rather "etched"; unfortunately that is commonly on modern Chinese "replica" swords. Can't tell for sure, but that may be a possibility; or they could be finely polished true Nihonto.

Need to see the tangs to tell anything else.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
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[knife7knut]

Originally Posted by koto

they are fake from China

Are there certain features that make this so obvious? I am far from knowledgeable in relation to Japanese edged weapons but have a considerable collection of Western pocket and fixed blade knives;many of them quite old and can usually tell the difference between a genuinely old knife and a simulated one.
I ask this because I am always wanting to learn more.

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Knife7knut,

Another folder/fixed blade collector...

A good - but by no means exhaustive - resource and primer on spotting knock-off nihonto can be found here:

http://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

With regards to your examples, while I would hesitate to even qualify or consider myself as a "student" of nihonto (though I am fortunate enough to have a couple in my own collection), as Rich mentioned, the (weld) patterns on your blades appear to be etched. You will not find acid-etched blades on an authentic nihonto. At the website above, you can see the difference between an etched blade and the visible 'activity' in a polished nihonto.

Now, regarding Koto's observation ("koto" means "old sword" in Japanese), he (at least I'm assuming Koto is a "he") must have picked up on clues/cues from the koshirae (mountings) itself, and it would be instructive for me to hear & learn what he observed that led him to a definitive conclusion.

Another good resource (my personal favorite) is Rich's website, to which a link can be found in the signature of his posts.

In the world of ethnographic edged weaponry, probably no other form is as revered - or copied - as the nihonto. And remember that the 'application' of patina is in itself a cottage industry in China, where they have been knocking off their own antiques for centuries...

While the fittings may appear to have age, I've seen quality (knock off) koshirae attached to Chinese blades...

Anyway, hope this helps. Additional photos of the blades and tangs would help knowledgable members like Rich and Koto give you more detailed feedback about your swords and the telltale signs that would indicate or refute their authenticity.

[koto]

Originally Posted by knife7knut

Are there certain features that make this so obvious? I am far from knowledgeable in relation to Japanese edged weapons but have a considerable collection of Western pocket and fixed blade knives;many of them quite old and can usually tell the difference between a genuinely old knife and a simulated one.
I ask this because I am always wanting to learn more.

Actually nothing smell right there -- the shape of the whole thing, the wrap, the shape and the fittings of / on the handle, the workmanship of the tsuba, the detail of the scabbard, the kogatana, the forging grian of the blade...... Don't learn anything from these two. They are not the right things. Buy a real Nihonto and it will tell you a lot!

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Rich

Have you removed the tsuka (handle) to see if either or both are signed or dated? The hada (grain) is very prominent, looks rather "etched"; unfortunately that is commonly on modern Chinese "replica" swords. Can't tell for sure, but that may be a possibility; or they could be finely polished true Nihonto.

Need to see the tangs to tell anything else.

Rich
-------------------------------------------------------
Richard Stein, PhD

Japanese Sword Guide
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

"Never go anywhere without a knife"
- Leroy Jethro Gibbs
-------------------------------------------------------

This.