Repairing the hilt on a visayan sword

Ian · 10th March 2005, 10:36 PM

Thought I would post these pictures of a repair I did recently on a Visayan hilt because the original construction of the hilt was a little different from what I have seen previously.

The hilt was very loose and pulled off with little effort. What came from the cavity in the hilt was a mixture of rusty dust and small fragments of fibrous material. Adhering to the rectangular tang were further remnants of fabric of some type which bound two thin pieces of metal to either side of the tang. These thin strips seem to have been metal "shims" and the whole attachment of the hilt to the tang appears to have been largely a press fit over a padded and expanded tang. There may have been an adhesive in the mix originally, but when I removed the hilt the wooden cavity was devoid of any residual pitch or other adhesive.

The first two pictures show the hilt disassembled. It is a large deity hilt that is associated with the island of Panay in the central Philippines (Visayas). There is a large octagonal ferrule and a small cross guard.

Closer inspection (second picture) shows notches in the top of the guard into which the metal "shims" may have fitted originally.

Ian · 10th March 2005, 10:46 PM

Well, I tried to repeat the original arrangment of the hilt. An old, well worn, cotton shirt was sacrificed for the fabric (my wife was more than happy to select the sacrificial garment from my "work" clothes). The thin metal strips were wrapped with the material and Super Glue held the arrangement in place. I was not entirely comfortable with a simple press fit, so used a little water soluble glue in the cavity to add some adhesion.

Here are pictures of the wrapping of the tang.

Ian · 10th March 2005, 10:56 PM

The fixing of the hilt is very stable and it all came together nicely.

I also etched the blade (before putting on the handle) and found a very active pattern along the edge with a line of demarcation between the sharpened edge and the rest of the blade.

This has turned out a very nice Visayan sword, probably made in the early 20th C.

Ian.

Ferguson · 11th March 2005, 12:12 AM

Excellent description of the work! That is a beautiful sword. Thanks Ian.

Steve

zelbone · 11th March 2005, 02:32 AM

Great job on that binangon, Ian! Looks like a good solid fighting piece with a very nice blade. The repair looks great. There's only one thing I would have also done while you had the sword apart and that would have been to clean the ferrule. What material is the ferrule? It looks like it is heavily oxidized iron. When I have one of these swords apart with an iron ferrule, I usually soak the ferrule in a cup of straight vinegar for several hours or overnight to loosen the oxidation. Then with an old toothbrush, brass brush, or steel wool, I just brush off the rust. This leaves the ferrule in a raw metal state which is how it originally looked like. It just gives a nice contrast with the darker wood/carabao horn deity hilt. Here's a couple of tenegre hilts that originally had rusty/oxidized ferrules that I soaked in vinegar and cleaned off during restoration. This gives you an idea of what the ferrule looked like originally.

Ian · 11th March 2005, 04:51 AM

Thanks Zel. I will remember to do that next time. Actually my plan was to polish it back to bright. When I rubbed the ferrule with oil and 0000 steel wool, to remove some surface rust, I kinda liked the dark dull patina -- seemed to go with the dark wood.

Knowing now that these ferrules were usually kept polished and bright, I will certainly do that next time. Thanks for the tip about the vinegar!

Ian.

Conogre · 11th March 2005, 02:26 PM

Thank you for posting this Ian, as your timing is impeccable...while a friend was handling a couple of mine the other day, one of the blades narrowly missed a 125 gal. aquarium showing me that it's time to do the same, immediately if not sooner.
One last question....I thought I had picked up the difference between a binangon and a tenegre, but I obviously didn't....can someone PLEASE fill me in on the difference?
I've spent hours going through searches and only find examples and not what differentiates one from the other.
Mike

Federico · 12th March 2005, 01:18 AM

Very nice find and repair. If you ever have to do a repair again, I got a big ol tub of pitch if you would like to use some. Ive liked the removability of pitch (little heat it pops off). One of the things my dad told me about filler, such as cloth strips, fiber, etc... Was when he and his father would search for new bolo, they would always check how well the blade was secured. According to him, alot of the blades did not use enough pitch/glue to secure the blade, and hence the filler (also for fit).

Conogre, difference between Binangon and Tenegre. Zel correct me if Im wrong, since Im not good with this myself, but the binangon are the pieces with more kampilanesque blades, and tengres are the pieces with the clipped point bowie like blades.

Ian · 12th March 2005, 06:56 PM

Thanks for the offer Federico. I've often wondered where I could find small quantities of pitch for these jobs. I'll be back in touch when I next have a hilt to reattach.

Lot of good helpful advice. Thanks to all for your comments.

Ian.

Battara · 15th March 2005, 02:08 AM

Nice work, Ian. Nice pictures too. One day, when I grow up, I will have a digital camera and record my work in progress (as several of you have requested). Instant cameras apparently don't work as well as advertised.

Conogre · 15th March 2005, 04:35 AM

Thank you Ina and Federico...as I said, I followed perhaps 20 threads and just about the time I thought I'd figured it out, I'd run across a piece that contradicted the others and I'd be off and running again.
While I appreciate the Moro weapons, I have to admit to finding the heavy tengres and binangons every bit as battle worthy and beautiful, and then when more and more surfaced about the lumad blades and the Mandaya weapons I guess I've been a more evenly distributed admirer than most and am finally glad to see a few others drifting in the same general direction.
How about another question...are Manday weapons considered lumad, or is this another fine distinction?
Mike

Ian · 15th March 2005, 05:04 AM

Hi Mike. Yes the Mandaya are one of the Lumad tribes.

tom hyle · 15th March 2005, 11:15 AM

BTW, note that the main direction of visible grind-lines is across the blade. We're often advised to always sand/grind/polish along blades, but this is by no means historically warranted. It is more after the nature of an aspect of modern Western Industrial culture, and is closely associated with the concept of invisible craftsmanship.

The oceanic SE Asian cutting sword tang is not, as it is sometimes called, flat. It is a rectangular-section wedge, tapered for width and often for thickness. Certainly the tightness of fit in the hilt does affect the solidity of the joint, and the degree to which the wedge effect is taken advantage of; some blades fit so tightly and well as to almost not require adhesive, while others are so loose there is no real wedge affect. Wood and iron are stronger than pitch and cloth; a tight fit is best if you ask me. On the other hand, there are those who praise the shock absorbtion of softer materials.

wilked aka Khun Deng · 15th March 2005, 11:36 AM

Ian et all, Am Sorry I have been absent. Wonderful blade and a great job on the rehilting! Have not found one of these yet in Manila, howver I'm still looking!

Ian · 28th March 2005, 05:10 AM

Another similar one that just ended on eBay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6519537548

Could our Visayan experts perhaps give an approximate date to this sword. This is a nice example and looks to be all there, including a scabbard that may be original to the sword. I notice that the prices on these are rising also.

Ferguson · 28th March 2005, 10:57 AM

I was trying for that one Ian, as was Labantayo. Prices are going nuts. I bid enough that I KNEW I would win, but still got outbid. I would love to see an estimate of the age as well. I'm no expert. Just like them.
Steve

Bill · 28th March 2005, 12:50 PM

Small brass sheets found at hobby stores are usefull in repairs. Have found brass foil perfect for wraping the peksi of a keris. Not sure where to buy it, should be available on the internet, but it is also in "shielded" electrical & communications cable. Suppose copper just as good. The guage of aluminum foil seems a bit to thick &, but may be usefull for some. Don't think any of these would help much with a retangular tang.

Mare Rosu · 28th March 2005, 01:37 PM

Ian
You did a most masterfully repair.

Bill and othersThis is a link to just one of many manufactures of shim stock. http://www.artuscorp.com/stock.htm
What is nice about this one is that the stock is colored coded to it's thickness and can be gotten in, Copper, SS as well as plastic.
Gene

Ian · 28th March 2005, 05:02 PM

Bill and Gene: Thanks for the helpful ideas and the source of materials graded by thickness.

Steve: The market is getting crazy. Seems as though there could be a few people quietly watching this Forum and getting a handle on what is worth collecting. I've noticed prices have climbed 100% or more in the last few years on stuff that virtually nobody used to bid on. Look at the Bagobo swords, for example. Just a couple of years ago, these often went for $100-120, now you can't get near a halfway decent one for less $200. There was an old Visayan talibon (gareb?) that went for big bucks this weekend too.

Federico · 29th March 2005, 04:24 AM

Since no one else has responded on the age of the ebay piece, a while back Zel had said ones with guards were older than ones without guards, and the wood guards are even older. That, and considering the wonderful pics of the collections in Spain given to us by Engar, perhaps 19 century or far older.

ariel · 29th March 2005, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

Very nice find and repair. If you ever have to do a repair again, I got a big ol tub of pitch if you would like to use some. Ive liked the removability of pitch (little heat it pops off). One of the things my dad told me about filler, such as cloth strips, fiber, etc... Was when he and his father would search for new bolo, they would always check how well the blade was secured. According to him, alot of the blades did not use enough pitch/glue to secure the blade, and hence the filler (also for fit).

Conogre, difference between Binangon and Tenegre. Zel correct me if Im wrong, since Im not good with this myself, but the binangon are the pieces with more kampilanesque blades, and tengres are the pieces with the clipped point bowie like blades.

The one Ian referred to (just ended on e-bay)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6519537548
has a totally different, upswept, point..
Does it have its own name?

Rick · 29th March 2005, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ian

Bill and Gene: Thanks for the helpful ideas and the source of materials graded by thickness.

Steve: The market is getting crazy. Seems as though there could be a few people quietly watching this Forum and getting a handle on what is worth collecting. I've noticed prices have climbed 100% or more in the last few years on stuff that virtually nobody used to bid on. Look at the Bagobo swords, for example. Just a couple of years ago, these often went for $100-120, now you can't get near a halfway decent one for less $200. There was an old Visayan talibon (gareb?) that went for big bucks this weekend too.

Sadly gentlemen , I've got to believe that because of the interest and discussion of these (formerly sleeper) pieces here the prices are skyrocketing in part due to the attention they receive on this forum .

Federico · 29th March 2005, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

[/B]
The one Ian referred to (just ended on e-bay)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6519537548
has a totally different, upswept, point..
Does it have its own name?

I believe this would still count as a Tenegre, in as much the term Tenegre is accurate.

Rick · 29th March 2005, 06:52 PM

As I write this there are twice as many people lurking here than there are members currently online .

LabanTayo · 29th March 2005, 10:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

As I write this there are twice as many people lurking here than there are members currently online .

message to the lurkers:
all the swords with the funny looking faces and big teeth and noses are actually a similation of an old drunk clown called Kakatawa. the ones with the big eyes are called Serang Ulo. they were made for the tourist trade. they sat low on a shelf so the kids would see them and tell their mommy to by them. really good marketing by the sari-sari (neighborhood convenient store) store owners made these swords very popular. you can find tons of them in junk stores or clown memorabilia stores in the philippines.
they have no real collector or martial value.
thats the true history of the tenegre (talibong) and binangon (ginungting).

LabanTayo · 29th March 2005, 10:17 PM

ian,
by the way, very nice job on the restoration.
very nice binangon, even though it is a tourist piece.

Federico · 29th March 2005, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LabanTayo

message to the lurkers:
all the swords with the funny looking faces and big teeth and noses are actually a similation of an old drunk clown called Kakatawa. the ones with the big eyes are called Serang Ulo. they were made for the tourist trade. they sat low on a shelf so the kids would see them and tell their mommy to by them. really good marketing by the sari-sari (neighborhood convenient store) store owners made these swords very popular. you can find tons of them in junk stores or clown memorabilia stores in the philippines.
they have no real collector or martial value.
thats the true history of the tenegre (talibong) and binangon (ginungting).

So I take it that you like I, only collect worthless tourist junk, and so everyone on Ebay who sees my handle bidding on an item can rest assured that it is of absolutely no value, and should rather save their money for lovely precious dha

Rick · 30th March 2005, 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Federico

So I take it that you like I, only collect worthless tourist junk, and so everyone on Ebay who sees my handle bidding on an item can rest assured that it is of absolutely no value, and should rather save their money for lovely precious dha

DHA , the other Nihonto ........

LabanTayo · 30th March 2005, 03:19 AM

= (what the hilt looks like) Kakatawa

= (what the hilt looks like) Serang Ulo

= when visayan stuff is through the roof

= when we find a sleeper

= when we win that sleeper for what they're really worth

i'm going to start collecting dha's and yatahgan's. they're cheaper than moro and visayan stuff....

Andrew · 30th March 2005, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

DHA , the other Nihonto ........

Part of me is saddened by this. Another part (the opportunistic part) is a bit gleeful as i busy myself with otherwise tedious cataloging of my collection.

10th March 2005, 10:36 PM	#1
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Repairing the hilt on a visayan sword Thought I would post these pictures of a repair I did recently on a Visayan hilt because the original construction of the hilt was a little different from what I have seen previously. The hilt was very loose and pulled off with little effort. What came from the cavity in the hilt was a mixture of rusty dust and small fragments of fibrous material. Adhering to the rectangular tang were further remnants of fabric of some type which bound two thin pieces of metal to either side of the tang. These thin strips seem to have been metal "shims" and the whole attachment of the hilt to the tang appears to have been largely a press fit over a padded and expanded tang. There may have been an adhesive in the mix originally, but when I removed the hilt the wooden cavity was devoid of any residual pitch or other adhesive. The first two pictures show the hilt disassembled. It is a large deity hilt that is associated with the island of Panay in the central Philippines (Visayas). There is a large octagonal ferrule and a small cross guard. Closer inspection (second picture) shows notches in the top of the guard into which the metal "shims" may have fitted originally. Attached Images

10th March 2005, 10:46 PM	#2
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Part 2 -- The Repair Well, I tried to repeat the original arrangment of the hilt. An old, well worn, cotton shirt was sacrificed for the fabric (my wife was more than happy to select the sacrificial garment from my "work" clothes). The thin metal strips were wrapped with the material and Super Glue held the arrangement in place. I was not entirely comfortable with a simple press fit, so used a little water soluble glue in the cavity to add some adhesion. Here are pictures of the wrapping of the tang. Attached Images Last edited by Ian; 10th March 2005 at 11:01 PM.

10th March 2005, 10:56 PM	#3
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Part 3 -- The Outcome The fixing of the hilt is very stable and it all came together nicely. I also etched the blade (before putting on the handle) and found a very active pattern along the edge with a line of demarcation between the sharpened edge and the rest of the blade. This has turned out a very nice Visayan sword, probably made in the early 20th C. Ian. Attached Images

11th March 2005, 02:32 AM	#5
zelbone Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: VISAYAS and MINDANAO Posts: 169	Great job on that binangon, Ian! Looks like a good solid fighting piece with a very nice blade. The repair looks great. There's only one thing I would have also done while you had the sword apart and that would have been to clean the ferrule. What material is the ferrule? It looks like it is heavily oxidized iron. When I have one of these swords apart with an iron ferrule, I usually soak the ferrule in a cup of straight vinegar for several hours or overnight to loosen the oxidation. Then with an old toothbrush, brass brush, or steel wool, I just brush off the rust. This leaves the ferrule in a raw metal state which is how it originally looked like. It just gives a nice contrast with the darker wood/carabao horn deity hilt. Here's a couple of tenegre hilts that originally had rusty/oxidized ferrules that I soaked in vinegar and cleaned off during restoration. This gives you an idea of what the ferrule looked like originally. Attached Images

28th March 2005, 01:37 PM	#18
Mare Rosu Deceased Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: USA, DEEP SOUTH, GEORGIA, Y'all hear? Posts: 121	Colored shim stock Ian You did a most masterfully repair. Bill and othersThis is a link to just one of many manufactures of shim stock. http://www.artuscorp.com/stock.htm What is nice about this one is that the stock is colored coded to it's thickness and can be gotten in, Copper, SS as well as plastic. Gene

11th March 2005, 12:12 AM	#4
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	Excellent description of the work! That is a beautiful sword. Thanks Ian. Steve

11th March 2005, 04:51 AM	#6
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Thanks Zel. I will remember to do that next time. Actually my plan was to polish it back to bright. When I rubbed the ferrule with oil and 0000 steel wool, to remove some surface rust, I kinda liked the dark dull patina -- seemed to go with the dark wood. Knowing now that these ferrules were usually kept polished and bright, I will certainly do that next time. Thanks for the tip about the vinegar! Ian.

11th March 2005, 02:26 PM	#7
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thank you for posting this Ian, as your timing is impeccable...while a friend was handling a couple of mine the other day, one of the blades narrowly missed a 125 gal. aquarium showing me that it's time to do the same, immediately if not sooner. One last question....I thought I had picked up the difference between a binangon and a tenegre, but I obviously didn't....can someone PLEASE fill me in on the difference? I've spent hours going through searches and only find examples and not what differentiates one from the other. Mike

12th March 2005, 01:18 AM	#8
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Very nice find and repair. If you ever have to do a repair again, I got a big ol tub of pitch if you would like to use some. Ive liked the removability of pitch (little heat it pops off). One of the things my dad told me about filler, such as cloth strips, fiber, etc... Was when he and his father would search for new bolo, they would always check how well the blade was secured. According to him, alot of the blades did not use enough pitch/glue to secure the blade, and hence the filler (also for fit). Conogre, difference between Binangon and Tenegre. Zel correct me if Im wrong, since Im not good with this myself, but the binangon are the pieces with more kampilanesque blades, and tengres are the pieces with the clipped point bowie like blades.

12th March 2005, 06:56 PM	#9
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Thanks for the offer Federico. I've often wondered where I could find small quantities of pitch for these jobs. I'll be back in touch when I next have a hilt to reattach. Lot of good helpful advice. Thanks to all for your comments. Ian.

15th March 2005, 02:08 AM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,219	Nice work, Ian. Nice pictures too. One day, when I grow up, I will have a digital camera and record my work in progress (as several of you have requested). Instant cameras apparently don't work as well as advertised.

15th March 2005, 04:35 AM	#11
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Thank you Ina and Federico...as I said, I followed perhaps 20 threads and just about the time I thought I'd figured it out, I'd run across a piece that contradicted the others and I'd be off and running again. While I appreciate the Moro weapons, I have to admit to finding the heavy tengres and binangons every bit as battle worthy and beautiful, and then when more and more surfaced about the lumad blades and the Mandaya weapons I guess I've been a more evenly distributed admirer than most and am finally glad to see a few others drifting in the same general direction. How about another question...are Manday weapons considered lumad, or is this another fine distinction? Mike

15th March 2005, 05:04 AM	#12
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Hi Mike. Yes the Mandaya are one of the Lumad tribes.

15th March 2005, 11:15 AM	#13
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	BTW, note that the main direction of visible grind-lines is across the blade. We're often advised to always sand/grind/polish along blades, but this is by no means historically warranted. It is more after the nature of an aspect of modern Western Industrial culture, and is closely associated with the concept of invisible craftsmanship. The oceanic SE Asian cutting sword tang is not, as it is sometimes called, flat. It is a rectangular-section wedge, tapered for width and often for thickness. Certainly the tightness of fit in the hilt does affect the solidity of the joint, and the degree to which the wedge effect is taken advantage of; some blades fit so tightly and well as to almost not require adhesive, while others are so loose there is no real wedge affect. Wood and iron are stronger than pitch and cloth; a tight fit is best if you ask me. On the other hand, there are those who praise the shock absorbtion of softer materials.

15th March 2005, 11:36 AM	#14
wilked aka Khun Deng Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Oahu, Hawaii Posts: 166	Ian et all, Am Sorry I have been absent. Wonderful blade and a great job on the rehilting! Have not found one of these yet in Manila, howver I'm still looking!

28th March 2005, 05:10 AM	#15
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Another similar one that just ended on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=6519537548 Could our Visayan experts perhaps give an approximate date to this sword. This is a nice example and looks to be all there, including a scabbard that may be original to the sword. I notice that the prices on these are rising also.

28th March 2005, 10:57 AM	#16
Ferguson Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kernersville, NC, USA Posts: 793	I was trying for that one Ian, as was Labantayo. Prices are going nuts. I bid enough that I KNEW I would win, but still got outbid. I would love to see an estimate of the age as well. I'm no expert. Just like them. Steve

28th March 2005, 12:50 PM	#17
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	Small brass sheets found at hobby stores are usefull in repairs. Have found brass foil perfect for wraping the peksi of a keris. Not sure where to buy it, should be available on the internet, but it is also in "shielded" electrical & communications cable. Suppose copper just as good. The guage of aluminum foil seems a bit to thick &, but may be usefull for some. Don't think any of these would help much with a retangular tang.

28th March 2005, 05:02 PM	#19
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,197	Bill and Gene: Thanks for the helpful ideas and the source of materials graded by thickness. Steve: The market is getting crazy. Seems as though there could be a few people quietly watching this Forum and getting a handle on what is worth collecting. I've noticed prices have climbed 100% or more in the last few years on stuff that virtually nobody used to bid on. Look at the Bagobo swords, for example. Just a couple of years ago, these often went for $100-120, now you can't get near a halfway decent one for less $200. There was an old Visayan talibon (gareb?) that went for big bucks this weekend too.

29th March 2005, 04:24 AM	#20
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Since no one else has responded on the age of the ebay piece, a while back Zel had said ones with guards were older than ones without guards, and the wood guards are even older. That, and considering the wonderful pics of the collections in Spain given to us by Engar, perhaps 19 century or far older.

29th March 2005, 06:52 PM	#24
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,290	Speaking Of Lurkers As I write this there are twice as many people lurking here than there are members currently online .

29th March 2005, 10:17 PM	#26
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	ian, by the way, very nice job on the restoration. very nice binangon, even though it is a tourist piece.

30th March 2005, 03:19 AM	#29
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	= (what the hilt looks like) Kakatawa = (what the hilt looks like) Serang Ulo = when visayan stuff is through the roof = when we find a sleeper = when we win that sleeper for what they're really worth i'm going to start collecting dha's and yatahgan's. they're cheaper than moro and visayan stuff....