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#1 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 157
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Hi folks
These don't seem to come up too often so I thought it might be worth sharing. I believe this to be a Chinese gun. Total length 136cm. Bore 13mm. The sprung matchlock mechanism is working. Although the peg that holds the spring in 'ready' position is worn and I would be very afraid of carrying it loaded, lit and cocked ![]() The barrel is held by 29 brass bands (and one is missing), plus one sheet metal steel band securing the breech. The barrel is padded out by three leather circles to get the correct distance between serpentine and pan. The pan has no cover, neither can I see any evidence that there ever was one. The barrel itself is octagonal becoming round and is pretty crudely formed. No marks of any kind that I can see, and no sight. I think that the barrel is rather older than the rest of the fittings since corrosion around the breech end, and round the pan suggests a long and useful life. The rest of the barrel is in very good condition and has a very nice black patina. Not sure what the hole in the 'pistol grip' is for. It looks old and not one made by a previous collector for wall mounting. No ramrod. I am assuming this is 19C, but I'd be eager to hear from anyone with more knowledge of these. Chris |
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#2 |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: USA
Posts: 1,497
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Here are a couple of Chinese matchlocks to compare, do you have any pictures of barrel the end, is it sealed shut or does it have a threaded barrel bolt like the Japanese matchlock.
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#3 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
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Thanks for the reply estcrh
Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the breech end of the barrel from the end, just this attached picture from the side. However, it is the sealed shut type with no discernable markings (although you can see the corrosion which might have obliterated any that were once there). |
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#4 |
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: comfortably at home, USA
Posts: 432
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This definitely is not my area, but I've handled a lot of Japanese matchlocks over the years having seen them at Japanese sword shows. IMHO, this doesn't look Japanese or Chinese to me. It looks more Afganistan or one of the more Arabic regions. Also doesn't look authentically old, more like an aged tourista.
I could be totally wrong and off base, if so, just chalk it up to an old fart showing his ignorance. Rich ========= The Japanese Sword Index http://japaneseswordindex.com |
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#5 |
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Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 26
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At best you might have a made up gun(Old barrel new wood)but even that looks a bit unlikely. I do not think it has any age. As to where it comes from as I don't think it is chinese, will only ever be a guess.
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#6 |
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Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Little Rock, Arkansas
Posts: 88
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Friends,
This is an interesting gun. I recommend taking at look at the matchlocks shown in Stone's glossary. I suggest that it is "south" Chinese or Indo-chinese. A neat piece. Peter |
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#7 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
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Definitely Chinese/Formosa, to Southeast Asia. Very nice. The hole in the grip, could be for a sling swivel of sorts. The Southeast Asian guns, don't have provision for a rammer.
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#8 |
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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It looks pretty "right" to me, Chinese matchlocks always look a bit odd and put together. I think it is part of the traditional disdain of the Chinese for military stuff.
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#9 |
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Denmark
Posts: 157
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Thanks for the replies folks
![]() Exactly what sort of gun it is I am not 100% sure, but it seems that there is broad agreement about the general region. I am also pretty certain that this is not a 'new' gun, even the woodwork is not new, although newer than the barrel. It has been important enough for someone to repair the stock which had split and strengthen the repair with a screw - you can see it behind the trigger. The barrel shows signs of this being fired (a lot), and the corrosion that you can see is associated with this or is primarily under the barrel rings, especially the large steel one. When I got it there was a lot of active rust under there. The matchlock mechanism also shows signs of wear, at least suggesting that the mechanism has also been used a lot. I guess this is not military, at least organised military since it does not have any markings, but it really is just a guess. |
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#10 |
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Join Date: Feb 2006
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The piece is right. China or the surrounding area is the location with that lock and form of stock. Age is a question. Guess from pics would be 19th century. A very similar form with a detachable lock was used by the montanyards and other various tribes in vietnam,annam,etc. Those particular ones were still in use during the vietnamese war and afterwards. Nice example.
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#11 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
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The percussion gun in this lot, is of unknown origin. The flinters are all from Southeast Asia. Sorry for the far away shot. Couldn't get the closeup to upload.
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#12 |
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Location: USA
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A Vietnamese matchlock.
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#13 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
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Very nice piece estcrh. Any idea on what time-frame?
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#14 |
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Indeed that looks like a very fine gun estcrh! Clearly not all these are roughly made items
![]() Great display of Vietnamese weapons. There clearly is a lot of variation here so I guess attributing individual guns to regions and times is going to be particularly difficult in these cases unless we have some kind of provenance with them. |
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#15 |
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The issue of attributing a origin of a piece is always pretty difficult. Usually you will go on the form of a piece and the motifs.
Age is often a question because of a few reasons. If the configuration of the piece worked for generations why change it. Another reason is economics the change over to percussion and cartridge weapons in many areas did not happen untill mid to late 20th century because these improvements cost to much money to operate or were simply not easilably obtained. The 3rd reason is tradition or religion. Trade or capture of a piece also makes origins interesting. It is generally held that most of the montanyard barrells were imported from china. The locks differ from the chinese but the form of the gun is very similar. Moving borders and influences also makes things difficult. just because the piece was made 50 or a hundred miles over one border or by a gun or sword smith traveling or relocated into a new area. Now when geniune markings and original inscriptions and or dating is found on a piece with the rest of the form and motifs matching then you can say this piece was made in libya in 1812 by so and so. Otherwise whem most describe things as chineese 19th century, they are refering to a general style of a weapon from a region and from a approximate time frame when it was used. |
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#16 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2012
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#17 | |
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#18 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
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I'm having some email issues. Here's a link to the post with the display. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16348.
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#19 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
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Gavin |
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#20 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2014
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The next one is obviously missed. You meant one band missed - it could be the band with the ring for the thong. I have the similar but a little bit longer matchlock. It was brought to Russia in 1900 by famous scholar Rudakov (he was sent to China to study the Boxers movement). Then it belonged to the late Prof. Artemyev who excavated the fort of Albazin in Amur basin. Then I bought it from his widow. May I use the picture of disassembled gun in my paper regarding matchlocks used for tiger hunting in Manchuria and Korea? I do not want to disassemle mine ![]() |
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#21 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
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AM PUTTING UP PICTURES OF 2 OF MY MONKEY GUNS FROM LAOS,BOUGHT INTO NEW ZEALAND BY AN AMERICAN C.I.A AGENT POSTED THERE IN THE 70s
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#22 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
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Very nice BANDOOK!
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#23 |
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: AUCKLAND,NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 624
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THANKS TRENCH,HAS A PART OF MONKEYS TAIL ON THE IGNITION AREA,MAY BE FOR GOOD LOOK OR TALISMAN
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#24 |
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 385
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Yes, all four of mine, have monkey fur frizzen covers.
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#25 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kingdom of the Netherlands
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Hi guys, I don't check the forum that often so I must have missed this post.
The gun in question is most likely from the Miao people, an ethnic minority living in large parts of southern China, including Hunan, Yunnan and Guizhou. Miao soldiers were feared gunners, William Mesny faced them while leading Qing troops in the area and he hailed their skill as snipers. Identifying features are the shape of the stock and the multitude of sheet metal bands holding the barrel in place. The standard Chinese musket had far fewer, and often narrower bands and a slightly different shape of stock. Some interesting passages on these people, their muskets, and their skills with them are described in Ian Heath's Armies of the 19th century; China. (The original sources it quotes are long out of print and hard to get.) David Leffman wrote an interesting book on Mesny, titled: "The Mercenary Mandarin: How a British adventurer became a general in Qing-dynasty China" that will give some context to these guns. A nice find! |
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