French fourbisseur PIERRE SOMME 1760-1806

[Jim McDougall]

Anybody out there know this maker/supplier in Paris 1760-1806. Hoping to find an example of any weapons by him or examples of his markings on same.
Would be most grateful to have input from those who have interest in French edged weapons.

[Edster]

Jim,

You probably have this one for his mark:

https://www.louiseantiquites.com/en/...and-two-stars/

Best,
Ed

[Jim McDougall]

[QUOTE=Edster;276515]Jim,

You probably have this one for his mark:

https://www.louiseantiquites.com/en/...and-two-stars/

Best,
Ed[/QUOTE

Thanks very much Ed! I have a huge hole in my library that should have French info :_) That answers my question perfectly.

Best
Jim

[Ian]

Sending this one over to the Euro Armory forum.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Ian

Sending this one over to the Euro Armory forum.

Thank you Ian, mi faux pas

[Richard G]

Jim,
Is it possible your briquet is not Paul Storr but Pierre Somme?
The latter being a cutler, it would make more sense, or is this why you're asking?
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Richard G

Jim,
Is it possible your briquet is not Paul Storr but Pierre Somme?
The latter being a cutler, it would make more sense, or is this why you're asking?
Regards
Richard

Thank you Richard. The Pierre Somme possibility has been suggested privately, but in reviewing his marks he seems to have used his middle initial as well, and it seems in France poincons appear to be placed on blades, not hilts, at least in the numbers of examples I have looked at.
He seems to have been a cutler, as you note, but like Storr, more involved in fine wares.

While it seems the consensus has been thus far that NO briquets were ever part of the swords used by British forces, the inclusion of them in the references by Blair; Wilkinson-Latham and Robson has led to the notion that some were.
The challenge has been to show ANY example of a briquet with any sort of British marks, or supporting provenance. In Wilkinson-Latham (1966) he shows an example of one and indicates there is a name on the blade, TROTTER, and suggests date c. 1814.
John Trotter was the first storekeeper general in the British army in 1807, but had been a major supplier of military equipage in 1794.

The PS cartouche on my example, despite being effectively the hallmark or touch mark registered by Paul Storr in 1793, is of course oddly out of place in the brass hilt of a munitions briquet. However in this period, when England had begun war with France, the military was in rather a disorganized state. It is noted that in many cases tradesmen and artisans crossed over into various areas of production. As he had not yet reached his well known fame, it seemed possible this might be the case.

I have yet to see any French briquet with poincon of maker in hilts in this location, or for that matter at all anywhere on the hilt. Most seem to have various numbers etc. in that hilt position.
I have not found any other explanation for the distinct PS otherwise associated with Paul Storr on silver wares, appearing on the hilt of my briquet.

As it does correspond to the 28 ridges of the French hilts, the possibility is that it was cast from a French example, in the affinity of the period for many French designs etc.
In these times, ersatz equipment was of course prevalent, especially for privately raised support units, so of course something hard to define as outside 'official' regulation or orders.

[Richard G]

Jim,
I have difficulty believing Paul Storr ever actually made briquets. He has been researched extensively and it has never been suggested (to my knowledge). There is the possibility, however, that it is a retail mark. We know he was as much a businessman as a skilled silversmith and he may have simply seen an opportunity for profit supplying bought in briquets for the needs of one or more of his many rich and important customers. If we let our imaginations rip it could even be an ownership mark; for I am sure his premises, containing significant amounts of precious metal, needed guards and watchmen. As would many premises in the wealthy areas of London in those days.
Of course this is speculation, but remember that John Field, 'founder' of Parker-Field, important suppliers of weaponry to the non-military, started off as a goldsmith.
Regards
Richard

[Jim McDougall]

Thats the thing Richard, this is not the kind of thing that would be considered a red letter moment in the career of this stellar silversmith, who is renowned for his artistic and technical skill in innovation in this field.

However from what I have learned of him, especially as his career evolved, is that he was not the least bit timid in advancing his career and business.
In this climate of 'concern' in England in these times (1794-1815) one cannot deny there were efforts to bolster defense, and private trades as I have noted engaged in crossover production, even more than in regular circumstances.
Most goldsmiths, silversmiths added many other 'hats' to keep their business going, as such demand on these finer wares was not always busy.
That is why directories of these periods list the other sundry items and skills that were included with these makers, who were often also cutlers.

While precious metal workers were often cutlers, most cutlers did not work in precious metals, which involved casting. There were of course a number of metal workers who did cast metal, brass of course. These would be who might be the first to look toward with munitions items like briquet hilts, but if, as suggested, they were overwhelmed with orders, it seems possible someone like Storr, doing 'his part', might step in. He was after all, working into favor with the royal family, and George III and son Prince of Wales were keen on military matters.

Thank you for the encouraging suggestions and notes on John Field, who became the key purveyor of police and civil arms toward mid 19th century, and his former skill as a goldsmith, again illustrating the propensity to diversity in work.

While it does seem that Storr's PS mark was used throughout career, but it seems with more flourish in cartouche design, this is a simple rectangle.
That inclines toward the character of the circumstances you describe, and the sorts of business oriented arrangements which might tend to the notable clientele he was indeed courting in his formative years in his career.

As to the period this briquet, if indeed made by Paul Storr would be placed as far as date.....the French briquet of this form was not 'officially' proposed until 1800, however, the form was apparently in use with foreign troops serving with French armies prior to that. As always 'regulation' forms tend to have already been in use notably prior to their formal designation in these dated regulations.

This is of course a leap of imagination, but worthy of continued research into a most interesting possibility.

Thank you for joining in with me on this,
Best regards
Jim


PS wanted to add the illustration of Pierre Somme hallmark (thanks again to Ed for link)to show he used acorn, two stars and PNS initials in lozenge cartouche.