Ottoman hilt sabre with stirrup type knuckleguard

Jim McDougall · 27th August 2013, 06:17 AM

Some years ago, there was a curious anomaly in an Ottoman 'pistol grip' type sabre with military sabre blade, and most unusual, a stirrup guard knucklebow. The few of these I can recall seeing were varying in identification, but seem to have been considered 'Anglicized' weapons of latter 19th century in accord with western style modernization of Turkish military.

The only reference I can recall which I believe had a photo of one of these was Lyles guide of 1978...these were several issues of combined items from Wallis & Wallis auctions showing the items and proceeds realized.

Can anyone out there help with one of these rare stirrup hilted 'kilij' style hilts? I sure would appreciate it!!!

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2013, 10:02 PM

Mystery solved! Thanks Gav!!!

Jens Nordlunde · 28th August 2013, 10:53 PM

Jim, that is not quite fair.
You ask a question, you obviously get an answer - but what about all the other members?
How am I to understand your question, or the answer you got, when there is no picture, or other explanation?
Jens

Jim McDougall · 28th August 2013, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Jim, that is not quite fair.
You ask a question, you obviously get an answer - but what about all the other members?
How am I to understand your question, or the answer you got, when there is no picture, or other explanation?
Jens

You're absolutely right Jens! and those 119 who viewed the post are probably awaiting the answer

I hadn't yet received an image, and was obviously premature in the note. As you see laconic notes dont work well for me

Apparantly I misjudged the interest level, so my apologies everyone, I will post the image forthwith.

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2013, 12:03 AM

My apologies Jens and others.

It was at a moment’s thought easier to email a link quickly to help Jim with his thoughts rather than find images in a folder, upload here or to Jim as time didn't permit as links are not allows in the forum anymore.

Jim now has the images and they will be uploaded in due course I am sure.

Gavin

A.alnakkas · 29th August 2013, 01:09 AM

I own one of these.. not yet recieved it.. Gav, you can use its photos for sure?

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2013, 01:22 AM

Here it is. These swords were around for a few years about 15 or 20 years ago but hvent seen many recently until this one Gav had.
It was noted they were for Ottoman troops in Hungarian regions but unclear on details.

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2013, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I own one of these.. not yet recieved it.. Gav, you can use its photos for sure?

Lofty just saw your post! Look forward to photos, any thoughts on provenance?

A.alnakkas · 29th August 2013, 01:29 AM

yep, thats the one. Had another exactly like it but with cow horn hilt... same blade and quillons. Sold it now but to a good friend who doesnt mind using its photos for research.

Iain · 29th August 2013, 11:23 AM

Always interesting to see these astral themed blade engravings turn up on different types. What sort of age are we looking at with the examples posted?

Gavin Nugent · 29th August 2013, 03:11 PM

Hi Iain,

Age, I do not know exactly as I am no longer in touch with my learned Hungarian friend, but I will endeavour to touch base with him again.

The blades vary in age but the sword as a sword appears to my eye to be circa 1800-1860...others may suggest they know the people still making them today

I've had several and lofty provides another but they all follow a chosen form, be it because of a required regulation pattern or a guild or workshops choice I am unaware.

Gavin

Jim McDougall · 29th August 2013, 08:53 PM

These astral themes as well as the lattice work at the forte on these blades to me suggests blades which were produced probably in Germany or other centers in the mid to latter 18th century. These 'hussar' type sabre blades have what is known as the 'hatchet' point which became best known on the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were developed from East European sabres with similar forms, but as various forms were considered they included other Eastern forms such as Ottoman kilij, shamshirs and even tulwars.

While it seems long believed that these were as suggested, for Ottoman forces, it should be noted that in the early years of the 19th century and after the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, the 'exotic' sabres of the famed Mamluks greatly influenced European tastes in weapons and military fashion. By the 1830s the sabres with Ottoman style hilts already in use by many officers in England and France had developed officially into what became known as the 'mameluke sabre' for officers.

In France and Austria thier armies had already been exposed to 'exotic' forces from the 1750s with the notorious 'pandour' regiments which were mostly Croatians, Hungarians and other Balkan ethnic groups. These forces served as auxiliary units with regular forces and became much feared for thier fierce and exotic appearance as well as outlaw depradations.
In later years these armies formed special and by then, actually somewhat elite units in the same styling performing light cavalry auxiliary duties etc.

I would suggest that perhaps these might have been cavalry sabres for these kinds of military units in either these European armies or possibly other of the Balkan countries, and recalling the Ottoman hilt form much as the mameluke sabres mentioned and probably in the early to mid 19th c.

Edster · 29th August 2013, 10:21 PM

I notice on both swords' cross guard what could be a joint line, perhaps indicating a forge weld. Is it possible that the stirrup and upswept parts are an addition / modification to existing hilts. Or am I just seeing things?

Ed

Gavin Nugent · 30th August 2013, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edster

I notice on both swords' cross guard what could be a joint line, perhaps indicating a forge weld. Is it possible that the stirrup and upswept parts are an addition / modification to existing hilts. Or am I just seeing things?

Ed

Hi Edster,

You see correct. The manufacture principles of the steel quillon black and guard follows that of the Indian Tulwar, being made of sections forged together rather than a single casting.
I can also so that the examples I've held also have the guard attached to the steel grip strap at the pommel and have all displayed lead wiping of welding at this join?

Jim,

Well detailed as always and many possibilities provided for those who want to delve further.

Gav

27th August 2013, 06:17 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,949	Ottoman hilt sabre with stirrup type knuckleguard Some years ago, there was a curious anomaly in an Ottoman 'pistol grip' type sabre with military sabre blade, and most unusual, a stirrup guard knucklebow. The few of these I can recall seeing were varying in identification, but seem to have been considered 'Anglicized' weapons of latter 19th century in accord with western style modernization of Turkish military. The only reference I can recall which I believe had a photo of one of these was Lyles guide of 1978...these were several issues of combined items from Wallis & Wallis auctions showing the items and proceeds realized. Can anyone out there help with one of these rare stirrup hilted 'kilij' style hilts? I sure would appreciate it!!!

29th August 2013, 01:09 AM	#6
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	I own one of these.. not yet recieved it.. Gav, you can use its photos for sure? Last edited by Jim McDougall; 29th August 2013 at 01:24 AM.

29th August 2013, 01:22 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,949	Here it is. These swords were around for a few years about 15 or 20 years ago but hvent seen many recently until this one Gav had. It was noted they were for Ottoman troops in Hungarian regions but unclear on details. Attached Images

29th August 2013, 01:29 AM	#9
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	yep, thats the one. Had another exactly like it but with cow horn hilt... same blade and quillons. Sold it now but to a good friend who doesnt mind using its photos for research. Attached Images

28th August 2013, 10:02 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,949	Mystery solved! Thanks Gav!!!

28th August 2013, 10:53 PM	#3
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,718	Jim, that is not quite fair. You ask a question, you obviously get an answer - but what about all the other members? How am I to understand your question, or the answer you got, when there is no picture, or other explanation? Jens

29th August 2013, 12:03 AM	#5
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	My apologies Jens and others. It was at a moment’s thought easier to email a link quickly to help Jim with his thoughts rather than find images in a folder, upload here or to Jim as time didn't permit as links are not allows in the forum anymore. Jim now has the images and they will be uploaded in due course I am sure. Gavin

29th August 2013, 11:23 AM	#10
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Always interesting to see these astral themed blade engravings turn up on different types. What sort of age are we looking at with the examples posted?

29th August 2013, 03:11 PM	#11
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Hi Iain, Age, I do not know exactly as I am no longer in touch with my learned Hungarian friend, but I will endeavour to touch base with him again. The blades vary in age but the sword as a sword appears to my eye to be circa 1800-1860...others may suggest they know the people still making them today I've had several and lofty provides another but they all follow a chosen form, be it because of a required regulation pattern or a guild or workshops choice I am unaware. Gavin

29th August 2013, 08:53 PM	#12
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,949	These astral themes as well as the lattice work at the forte on these blades to me suggests blades which were produced probably in Germany or other centers in the mid to latter 18th century. These 'hussar' type sabre blades have what is known as the 'hatchet' point which became best known on the British M1796 light cavalry sabre. These were developed from East European sabres with similar forms, but as various forms were considered they included other Eastern forms such as Ottoman kilij, shamshirs and even tulwars. While it seems long believed that these were as suggested, for Ottoman forces, it should be noted that in the early years of the 19th century and after the Napoleonic campaigns in Egypt, the 'exotic' sabres of the famed Mamluks greatly influenced European tastes in weapons and military fashion. By the 1830s the sabres with Ottoman style hilts already in use by many officers in England and France had developed officially into what became known as the 'mameluke sabre' for officers. In France and Austria thier armies had already been exposed to 'exotic' forces from the 1750s with the notorious 'pandour' regiments which were mostly Croatians, Hungarians and other Balkan ethnic groups. These forces served as auxiliary units with regular forces and became much feared for thier fierce and exotic appearance as well as outlaw depradations. In later years these armies formed special and by then, actually somewhat elite units in the same styling performing light cavalry auxiliary duties etc. I would suggest that perhaps these might have been cavalry sabres for these kinds of military units in either these European armies or possibly other of the Balkan countries, and recalling the Ottoman hilt form much as the mameluke sabres mentioned and probably in the early to mid 19th c.

29th August 2013, 10:21 PM	#13
Edster Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 408	I notice on both swords' cross guard what could be a joint line, perhaps indicating a forge weld. Is it possible that the stirrup and upswept parts are an addition / modification to existing hilts. Or am I just seeing things? Ed